An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[ShadowWolf Kell]

I have a couple of questions on this:

1) Firstly, can they be absolutely 100% sure that FD didn't view the video? Do all views get logged even if the viewer was using some kind of anonymity techniques?

2) Were the tests conducted and reported multiple times against the same account? To me, it's pretty obvious that FD are not going to take any action against any player for a single (or even several) reports of combat logging.

Fundamentally, video evidence or not, it's impossible to conclusively prove that someone combat logged in a single case, since they can just say their internet went down, and no telemetry or video evidence can prove otherwise unless FD have a camera in their house.

Seems to me, the only way FD can handle this (if at all) is to track all reports of combat logging, and then look at it further when the same commander is reported multiple or many times. They probably have a limit on which they only look into it if the same player is reported more than x times, and x is probably quite a high number like 10 or more.

So it may also be that your tests didn't trigger the number of required reports against a single account to warrant further action. Until it hits that trigger, there is no point reviewing video evidence. Granted, if the person admitted to combat logging in the chat, and that was shown in the video, that is bigger evidence, but I highly doubt that they would operate a single strike policy anyway - even if the person admitted it they probably wouldn't ban them until they did multiple offences.

Also, you don't say whether perhaps the person doing this in the first case didn't even realize it was against the game rules.

Additionally they don't seem to take into account that if FDev was actually looking at the data, they've have noticed that these alt accounts were from the same location as those filing the tickets. When they look at the data, they DO look at it. That's how they know when a refurbish request bug report is valid or not and so on. It's how they knew the original triple Elite winners were legit or not.

 

[Lobstris]

But people will cheat in solo or private groups just the same if they think they can get away with it.

If it wasn't for the fact that solo, private groups and open share a universe (through an unfathomable design decision), I'd (virtually) look at you askance here and ask 'so what if people 'cheat' in solo? It only affects themselves'. As it stands, I'll have to just say - Bad Frontier! No single player game!

 

[Goose4291]

Fascinating read and confirms suspicions I've had for some time. Many thanks for this.

 

[GimpstersGhost]

Just look around these forums and the Mobius PVE forums. People openly admit to combat logging even against NPCs to avoid the consequences of their own mistakes. People even use the exit menu to be able to leave stations without getting scanned by the police outside. The deeper issue isn't related to the penalties associated with PvP, the issue of combat logging in the context of PvP is just more visible by definition and more often brought up. But people will cheat in solo or private groups just the same if they think they can get away with it.

I agree that there are those people in the community that will cheat just to cheat. Some people do it just because they can, they will exploit any loopholes in a games design to their benefit. The only thing we can do to prevent this is to close the loopholes. I am merely trying to point out that there are often also gameplay issue driving this type of activity.

To the OP and other people in this thread who feel combat logging is a biggest enough issue as to warrant a FDev effort to fix it. How do you purpose they close this loophole while still utilizing a P2P network solution? Because to replace it with a different network solution will require the support of a monthy subscription to maintain the server architecture needed.

 

[Javert]

i wonder if you missed the parts "with chat evidence" and "no measure whatsoever to this day".

No - I referenced the chat evidence briefly. The chat evidence is more incriminating if it's actually shown in the video, but my point really is that they are probably not going to do anything based on a single report on a single account, even if the person admitted it, other than log the ticket. They might have a report or separate list where they are tracking number of reports per player by offence committed?

"No measure whatsoever to this day" - Not sure what you mean but if you mean that nobody was ever punished for combat logging, you can't know that. All you can really know is that in these particular cases it wasn't done, plus other anecdotal evidence.

Now you could be right that FD isn't actually doing anything about combat logging, but I'm not sure if this proves it conclusively. Even if it's true, I suspect it is more due to resource constraints and priorities than a deliberate bias.

As I recall FD have stated many times that it's very difficult to police combat logging - they have admitted it several times already. I also don't recall them ever stating that video evidence would be a proof of combat logging.

You may also have missed my edit where I said
"Edit: Personally, I don't like Combat Logging and I personally wouldn't have an issue with a system where if you combat log when you are in combat, you lose your ship. You would then be allowed a number of "get out of jail" cards per year where you can get your ship reinstated - this should cover you for when the disconnect was truly not your fault. Personally I would be ok with that, but then I have a good connection. If you have a really dodgy connection, probably you won't like that solution."

 

[VR Murgle]

Would an open PvE-only mode solve the problem?
(Ducks and exits stage left.....)

Apparently no, you see it's not just the PvEers who combatlog sometimes PvPers overestimate themselves and they have to make a (dis?)graceful exit...


But it might reduce the problem

 

[Iori]

If they banned people for combat logging their customer base would be reduced to 10% of what it is today.

 

[verminstar]

Isn't it great how many people are willing to miss the point worse than a generation ship 5° off-course?

Best way to discredit something damning is to divert attention onto something else...in this case, missing the point the OP was trying to make. Smoke and mirrors, confusion and endless misdirects. This is literally putting FD entire reputation under the spotlight...basically the gloves are off and no Queensbury rules here...now its a street brawl. Intrigued to know how FD reacts...OP should start running fer the hills, they will come after your main accounts and if they as good as they claim to be, ye wont be here this time tomorrow...good points made OP but yeah...now run ^^

 

[KWAiRT]

Funny nobody talking about how awesome the peer to peer networking is... LOL. Bad game design is bad game design and Elite Dangerous is full of it from Mode Switching to Combat logging to client side data hacks. Hell it's been how many years we still don't have a working interdiction mechanic that doesn't horribly glitch out yet every NPC just pulls you over and opens fire now no matter what lol. This game really has taken a dive since Coasters showed up. I still love Elite because of the scale and what not but the gameplay and mechanics that govern this game are sorely need complete rewrites in almost every area. Not to mention frontier couldn't balance a 2x4 if they tried and there have been so many exploits and nerfed items removed. Not to mention they leave all the old OP items in the game. This is not an MMO and it most certainly is not treated like one. Fdev needs to go play WoW for a few months to understand what an MMO really is and how to actually draw players in and make a game fun without sacrificing their game design or mechanics.

I would hate to see people banned for shutting down an application though. However if the modes were properly designed in the first place you could remove offending characters. However the ship has sailed already and I'm tired of making suggestions only to see this game continue to get worse and worse design wise and technically. Hell I'm surprised it even runs on the 275.95 Nvidia drivers to be honest. So much stuttering and jitter on my potato these days. Hell even the sound engine is bugging out in 2.2 after numerous reports in beta to fix it.

But hey we have Coasters WOOO! In all honesty even relogging to load a different res instance is lame. Relogging and mode switch AND combat logging should NEVER happen or ever NEED to happen in this game. Like I said bad design is just bad design period.

 

[Karunamon]

Funny nobody talking about how awesome the peer to peer networking is... LOL. Bad game design is bad game design and Elite Dangerous is full of it from Mode Switching to Combat logging to client side data hacks. Hell it's been how many years we still don't have a working interdiction mechanic that doesn't horribly glitch out yet every NPC just pulls you over and opens fire now no matter what lol. This game really has taken a dive since Coasters showed up. I still love Elite because of the scale and what not but the gameplay and mechanics that govern this game are sorely need complete rewrites in almost every area. Not to mention frontier couldn't balance a 2x4 if they tried and there have been so many exploits and nerfed items removed. Not to mention they leave all the old OP items in the game. This is not an MMO and it most certainly is not treated like one. Fdev needs to go play WoW for a few months to understand what an MMO really is and how to actually draw players in and make a game fun without sacrificing their game design or mechanics.

I would hate to see people banned for shutting down an application though. However if the modes were properly designed in the first place you could remove offending characters. However the ship has sailed already and I'm tired of making suggestions only to see this game continue to get worse and worse design wise and technically. Hell I'm surprised it even runs on the 275.95 Nvidia drivers to be honest. So much stuttering and jitter on my potato these days. Hell even the sound engine is bugging out in 2.2 after numerous reports in beta to fix it.

But hey we have Coasters WOOO! In all honesty even relogging to load a different res instance is lame. Relogging and mode switch AND combat logging should NEVER happen or ever NEED to happen in this game. Like I said bad design is just bad design period.

I think your timing is a little off. Planet Coaster hasn't even been out for a week yet. By all means pick up the pitchforks, but be sure you're picking them up for the right reasons.

 

[Kubicide]

Would an open PvE-only mode solve the problem?
(Ducks and exits stage left.....)

Actually, I believe it would help immensely. This is drifting off topic but this is one thing that surprised me since day 1 (well, in beta 2014) that there was no team play component. I expected one would pick a faction to team with, and that being on a team would bring the communities together by having support from many other players. Would also establish order in regions where players could freely roam or trade, or venture into another faction's turf to seek combat. Everyone would be happy. And there'd clearly be dangerous and safe areas. What we have is a simple free-for-all environment which certainly isn't helping as even one thing like wings can suddenly be "OP" to individual players. Throw in the high grind + high risk/ low reward + missing C&P balances, and people log or simply stay away from open. Don't blame them.

Back OT: FDev can't stop the logging nor should they try to. They should focus on making the game more enjoyable then logging will no longer be a top concern.

 

[Theodrid]

Let me be clear on my position first, combat logging, (in particular in open), is a move, though, in my opinion, this game has bigger issues to solve first.

There is some pretty damning evidence in that OP though as others have stated were there enough reports against said accounts/commanders to trigger Frontiers response?

Onto the 'meat and bones' of my post, I need to ask a few questions or SDC here, not to be provocative but just in terms of understanding.

1) Has/is SDC flooding Frontier with logging reports? - the reason I ask this is because it could be a case from Frontier of 'jesus SDC give it a rest, we know already.

2) Maybe Frontier are a little tired of the SDC hype train, SDC constantly claiming 'we forced Frontier to do x,y or z', 'we are making the game better because Frontier can't/won't', there are more examples but you get the picture.

3) Whatever the how's, why's and wherefores of this do SDC think that threatening Frontier with reference to running to media outlets and the like is going to in anyway improve Frontiers relationship with them in terms of cooperation?

While I'm aware that none of the above excuses or gives Frontier a free pass should the assertions in the OP be true they may indeed have a bearing and be worth considering.

 

[lausianne]

As long as griefers bear no risk of punishment, why should combat loggers? I enjoy meeting other players in game, so I like to play open. But I don't enjoy being attacked by griefers, therefore I have no choice but to log out when attacked by one. If an attacker demands that other players sacrifice themselves for the attacker's pleasure (see SDC), may he go find players who find pleasure in sacrificing themselves. But don't blame FD for not supporting griefing enough.

The other examples that the OP gives, are all fair points. So if I did PP etc. I'd be prepared to be attacked and prepared to defend myself. To make the whole logging/punishment thing fair, FD would have to judge each case individually and decide whether the CL was justified (griefing) or not. Hardly manageable.

 

[VicariousJambi]

Because to replace it with a different network solution will require the support of a monthy subscription to maintain the server architecture needed.

No it wouldn't. They could just rely on the skin market to do that. It's what GW2 does, it's what Warframe does. There could be a lot of money in the ship skins if Frontier did it a little better.

 

[Daffan]

Anyone who defends these kinds of actions (Combat logging) are to be honest, insane.

I understand that the crime system is bad to those who don't want to partake, but that's a separate issue Frontier should also look at.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Best way to discredit something damning is to divert attention onto something else...in this case, missing the point the OP was trying to make. Smoke and mirrors, confusion and endless misdirects. This is literally putting FD entire reputation under the spotlight...basically the gloves are off and no Queensbury rules here...now its a street brawl. Intrigued to know how FD reacts...OP should start running fer the hills, they will come after your main accounts and if they as good as they claim to be, ye wont be here this time tomorrow...good points made OP but yeah...now run ^^

The PvP crowd pulled something like this in SWG (they tended to be a lot more inventive than the folks here) and they got the response they were looking for. All of those involved got temporary 60 day bans. Given what the OP is asking for, that's likely going to be what happens here since they're basically demanding it. The irony.

 

[znôrt]

"No measure whatsoever to this day" - Not sure what you mean but if you mean that nobody was ever punished for combat logging, you can't know that. All you can really know is that in these particular cases it wasn't done, plus other anecdotal evidence.

yes, i meant that. and in my view that evidence is pretty hard since cases were closed. anyway ...

i guess it depends on the perspective. for me, this just confirms logical suspicions long hold, about this issue and several others. i think i actually understand why frontier acts that way, and, guess what, not that i like it but i'm okay with that, it's business after all, the game is what it is. don't see the need to justify it either.

 

[Chrysophylax]

I agree that this doesn't prove that they never did anything, but instead proves that they were caught not caring in at least those instances. Although I can very well imagine that they never did anything.

And that would be fine if they came out and said that they don't intend to follow up nor do they care to, and are content to let it be known that they consider it an exploit. The silence makes it so the PVP community, faced with the constant networking hijinks, logging and such, feel alienated and unheard. At least if they said 'hey PVP is secondary to co-op play, which is how we intended the game to be played' we would finally be able to put this to rest.

We're all very much aware that you can't prevent logging, only punish it, so I feel like the community would accept if this were to be FDev's proclamation.

 

[CmdrKull]

Anyone who defends these kinds of actions (Combat logging) are to be honest, insane.

I understand that the crime system is bad to those who don't want to partake, but that's a separate issue Frontier should also look at.

Well I don't know why someone would play in open and gen taskkill at the first sign of trouble. However, what is it you hope to accomplish? If they feel that taskkill isn't an option, and they are so very much risk adverse, can you tell me why you expect they'd continue to play in open when solo/PG is an option?

If it's a choice between talking to people around stations who will later combat-log when you try to interdict them, or talking to no one because Open is a ghost town, wouldn't you prefer the first option? Maybe combat-logging isn't the problem so much as the symptom, and your "cure" (a reprimand from FD) is more likely to kill the patient.

 

[Red Anders]

Good luck with blackmailing FD. They're sure gonna like it.

Regardless of whether they like it or not, it increasingly seems to be the new meta as far as getting things done is concerned. If that's the game, you can't fault people for playing it, perhaps if FDev are concerned by that they should spend some time considering how players have come to believe a precedent has been set for it and bear it in mind when planning future interactions with the player base.

For what it's worth I actually agree with OP's stance on the issue. In a game that provides two play modes where a player will never even have to face the possibility of getting killed by another player, to combat log after deciding to play in the one that doesn't offer that protection is the lamest of the lame.

Even if you don't share that opinion, the fact is that the behaviour is officially deemed to be an exploit as has been confirmed beyond any doubt by Sandro and as such, it should attract a punishment.