An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Red Anders]

Exactly my point. So why are you people doing this?

In your blind and stupid attempt to mitigate combat logging you might irreversibly damage Frontiers reputation and Elite's development.

For fricks sake, you are playing with fire. This is why people are getting upset. Hello Games and NMS are proof that this is not a good idea.

g think before you act people. God dammit.

Who is 'you people'? Pretty sure you've just given the SDC guys the best laugh they'll get today if you think I'm involved with them.

However that post is as good an example of victim blaming as I'm ever likely to see. Games company say a particular action is an exploit and that they will take action against players who do it. Both the OP's specific examples and a vast amount of anecdotal eveidence suggest that they aren't doing that. If you think the problem there is that players having the audacity to kick off about it might damage FD's reputation, you're living in a very different world than me. The reputational damage is caused by the lack of action. What do you suggest people should be doing, just shrugging and saying 'oh well never mind'? I'm saying that as someone with previous experience of playing games where essentially nothing is done about cheating and exploits.

 

[Muetdhiver]

What ED might need is some reason for the PvPers to actually PvP against other willing challenging PvPers and keep them occupied with that rather than lowering themselves to attacking weaker targets.

Of course, wouldn't stop the PvPers from combat logging on each other, but then at that point it becomes a pure PvP problem.

While my suggestion about making Powerplay PvP only was not realistic, it was mainly there to show that there could be a mechanic which might give PvPers something to do that would not impact on the rest of the community.

Of course, the other option is for everyone who doesn't enjoy PvP to simply leave Open, but then, that would effectively make Open a PvP mode, and i don't think many people would want that.

Pretty much this. Treat the root of the problem, not the symptoms (combat logging).

Some personal opinions :

• If I fly in open in a trade ship, I'm fine with getting pirated. (as in someone getting my cargo).
• I am not fine with getting murdered for giggles when flying in a trading ship or an ASP with all the interaction cost on me and no way to get some payback.
• I would be fine with getting murdered for giggles in my clean T ship or explo ASP if 1) the perp got a rebuy increase equal to the lost ship in non-anarchy systems (pilot federation recouping their loss) 2) the perp was now shown as a marker (like friends) on the galmap. So I can hunt him down in my pimped FDL.
• At the moment, I don't combat log (cheating). But I also never do open in a trading ship or exploration ship. I will keep playing that way till FD balances the interaction cost and rework the crime & punishment system.

 

[Red Anders]

Just another dumb question:
If the Developers ban every people who have combat logged, how many people can play the game after this?

If you can answer this, than you know why FDev's didn't intervent on combat loggers

That's also false logic I'm afraid. If players were regularly banned for combat logging from day one and it was common knowledge that they were, how many do you think would still do it?

I'm really surprised about how many people are willing to ignore the fact that we're talking about the rules of the game here. I wonder just how many of you would have the same view about a breach of the rules that directly affected you? Rules are rules, there is literally no point in making them and publicly declaring them if they won't be enforced.

 

[LexMoloch]

So, what do you plan on doing about it, if you believe this?

Do you think FD are going to post here and say "Alright guys, you got us!" and then proceed to either deal with combat loggers harshly or make a new statement saying "Ok, we are not going to do anything about combat loggers"

Look at the realities of the situation and your options.

1) Believe they lied, accept it, and move on.
2) Believe they lied, don't accept it, quit the game, spread the word that FD lie, rage, go play SC, whatever.
3) Don't believe they intentionally or directly lied, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Or some other stance?

Me, i don't know. It certainly seems damning, but I have no knowledge of what actually happened, what is facts, what is conjecture, etc.

What i do remember is all those months where there was a similar thing with regards to people using cheating scripts. The cheaters were laughing, raking in big credits. Nothing seemed to happen. Then slowly, some people started getting short shadowbans. Then over the months, more and more started getting shadowbanned, and for longer. One guy reportedly lost 6 accounts due to bans, and then finally, FD killed the cheats from working (or at least the 64 bit version) and the cheaters then started crying.

Maybe one day, we will see a similar pattern starting, maybe when FD feel more confident they can identify intentional logs from random disconnects. Yeah, i'm sure plenty of people feel they have all the proof they need to act, but maye FD do not feel its sufficient yet. Maybe they need actual net logs that prove it, rather than suggest it when combined with videos. No idea.

However, i would love to be a fly on the wall in FD's office today, i think most of us could agree on that, regardless of our position

Be careful with the voice of reason, some may not like that.

You are lacking 4) though:
4) Not sure.

FD did shadowban people for combat logging in the past. Not naming anyone, but a certain member of Adle's Armada was punished for CL. He publicly disclosed everything and refuted the accusation, stating he was innocent. Provided enough evidence and FD pulled back. I'm sure FD is in no hurry to ban alleged combat loggers without rock-solid proof. We simply don't have enough insight as to what is going on behind the scenes (if anything) on this matter. It would be very nice if FD stepped up and provide more information on their combat log stance, but in doing so they may actually provide information actually helpful for the loggers.

 

[This Forum Sucks]

Still no response from the cowards, not suprising either.

Hopefully they just ignore this thread and everyone in it, it's not really deserving of a response. For serious though, this thread was started outside of office hours and I'm sure we all realise by now that "salty manchildren who think they're on a crusade" is a serious enough issue in today's industry that responding requires at least one in-office meeting to take place because god forbid they put a single word wrong with you primadonnas and start getting death threats.

 

[Red Anders]

Thank you for doing this.

Still no response from the cowards, not suprising either.

Funny how they wanted to go out of their way to not show combat loggers on their stream yet refuse to do anything about it.

Be fair. the thread was posted at 6.30pm UK time yesterday. It's now 8.46am UK time.

 

[Kayweg]

With 20 pages so far, does this still scratch the surface of the amount of players who actually care about combat logging? The last post, with poll showed totally opposite. Most really didn't care one way or another. Has those stats shifted since then or is this another opinion on the same problem? Haven't kept up with this just asking?

No, it hasn't shifted.
This thread isn't about combat logging.
It's about a developer not enforcing their own rules.
That they can't fix combat logging is accepted by many players.
That they don't investigate and penalize players who do it isn't.
At least that's how i understand this thread.

 

[amysteriousstranger]

That's also false logic I'm afraid. If players were banned for combat logging from day one and it was common knowledge that they were, how many do you think would still do it?

I'm really surprised about how many people are willing to ignore the fact that we're talking about the rules of the game here. I wonder just how many of you would have the same view about a breach of the rules that directly affected you? Rules are rules, there is literally no point in making them and publicly declaring them if they won't be enforced.

Exactly, everyone imagine for a moment that all NPCs popped out of existence before death, no bounties earned, exploration data got deleted when you hand it in, cargo disappears when you dock, missions auto fail when you dock


And then you hear the Devs plan to fix it, and then ignore the problem and don't fix it

The game would die in days

Same thing, different players effected

Just because it doesn't effect the whole player base doesn't mean something shouldn't be done

 

[sndle9]

No, it hasn't shifted.
This thread isn't about combat logging.
It's about a developer not enforcing their own rules.
That they can't fix combat logging is accepted by many players.
That they don't investigate and penalize players who do it isn't.
At least that's how i understand this thread.

I'd say the recent poll makes it clear that most players don't care a jot about combat logging and its a clear minority that try to make it into the cancerous game killer they claim.

It is cheating and it is an issue, but if you think banning anyone that does it will provide more targets in open I suspect you are very wrong.

Recent interest poll

 

[Jimbodiah]

Some people here need to grow up and get a life. Wow, the length some people go to, sad.

 

[TargetLost]

Look at the realities of the situation and your options.
1) Believe they lied, accept it, and move on.
2) Believe they lied, don't accept it, quit the game, spread the word that FD lie, rage, go play SC, whatever.
3) Don't believe they intentionally or directly lied, give them the benefit of the doubt.

A true SDC has to stand true to their values and therefore they can only choose Option 2.
Farwelll SDC!

 

[two quiet suns]

73% of people who responded to that poll said they don't care.
Combat logging has not stopped me enjoying this game one bit, so my two pence are in agreement with the above linked poll.

 

[veryinky]

Just another dumb question:
If the Developers ban every people who have combat logged, how many people can play the game after this?

If you can answer this, than you know why FDev's didn't intervent on combat loggers

Imagine if Fdev banned everyone who used the broken station anarchy no fire zone bug to destroy an other player's ship within a station's sphere of influence while the exploit existed. I think most of the people whining about combat logging now would have long since moved on to other things.

 

[badwolf77]

I hope they come out and say "it's the risk you take playing in open, try playing in a private group with people who share your playing style and eject anyone who combat logs". You know, the same line PVPers trot out when someone is shirty about non-consentual PVP.

Non-consensual PVP is you foisting your gameplay style on someone. Combat logging is someone foisting theirs on you.

Don't act all shirty because FD are tacitly accepting this status quo (which is what you expected to find, wasn't it?), their solution might be even more unpalatable to your tastes.

-BW.

 

[Howe]

The topic isn't about combat logging as they say it would be okey if frontier said that they don't do anything. But the point is that frontier have lied. They have stated that they will take actions and said in support tickets that they have looked at the chase when they haven't done either. This mean that we can't trust what frontier or support says. Support may say that some bug will be looked at etc. when the chase will be that they will ignore it.

People get stuck about that its related to combat logging when the point is that frontier and support do opposite what they say. Does it need to be topic that harm/impact you to make you realize that it isn't good if frontier say they will deal with x some specific way and then not do that.

They've said that they'll look into it. In order to look into it they don't need to be looking at every single case of it happening. They may very well not be looking into individual cases AT ALL and they could *still* be investigating and therefore not lying. After all, they know what's happening and how people are doing it, they may still be trying to decide how they want to handle it. Your videos are, therefore, completely irrelevant.

I have seen plenty to indicate that Frontier are scattergunning bug fixes, plenty to indicate that they're struggling with balance issues, plenty to indicate that they're more focused on new content than fixing old, but absolutely NONE to indicate they're outright lying to their user-base.

Lying is a pretty strong accusation to be throwing around and you've only got a small amount of evidence regarding a single issue that's demonstrably a very minor one for the player-base as a whole and inferred as such for the developers. You say "lying", but what you really mean is "my issue is being ignored and I am therefore seeing conspiracy in dark corners".

 

[Komemiute]

There are so many things wrong with OP I don't even know where to start.

First, you had the right idea, but you didn't give it enough time. You waited a week for views. For something like this, I would've tested it over six months, at least.
You let the cat out of the bag to early, and now FDev could probably hide behind the excuse of being slow. Which isn't unreasonable considering the time between major releases and stuff....
Additionally, as others have brought up in the thread and on reddit, some companies do bans in waves. Maybe Frontier is using this approach.
You are trying to catch FDev with their hand in the cookie jar and merely caught them looking at the cookie jar.

Second, Frontiers statement could have been true at the time. As far as I know, they haven't made any resent statement about what specific action they are taking against combat logging. The banning approach is way to impractical and harsh. I'm not surprised at all that they abandoned it. So you can't really accuse them of lying.

Third, this is entirely from a gameplay POV, there is no effective in game defense for freighters and explorers against legitimate-play-style'ers(they don't like to be called gankers greifers or psychos), especially now with engineer mods. Some players feel forced to combat log. Frontier has to also figure out why people combat log in the first place and make attempts to absolve that issue.

Fourth and most important, it was just an all around jerk move to test Frontier Support without their knowing like this. OP seems entirely focused on just humiliating Frontier and creating an atmosphere of discontent and distrust between the community and the devs. It is posts like these that caused FDev to be as quiet as they are. No more Dev updates no more peek of the week. It is posts like these that will truly kill ED.

This. You have my +rep and utmost respect.

 

[Lateralus]

73% of people who responded to that poll said they don't care.
Combat logging has not stopped me enjoying this game one bit, so my two pence are in agreement with the above linked poll.

The forum is dominated by PvE players... most open/PvP players mainly chat on Reddit or Discord. A lot of them despise this place for it's perceived PvE bias and therefore don't post here, so I wouldn't rely on poll results.

 

[Ozram]

I hope they come out and say "it's the risk you take playing in open, try playing in a private group with people who share your playing style and eject anyone who combat logs". You know, the same line PVPers trot out when someone is shirty about non-consentual PVP.

Non-consensual PVP is you foisting your gameplay style on someone. Combat logging is someone foisting theirs on you.

Don't act all shirty because FD are tacitly accepting this status quo (which is what you expected to find, wasn't it?), their solution might be even more unpalatable to your tastes.

-BW.

Indeed. I wonder what would happen if everyone began logging on gankers as a general rule. This might just work

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

I'd like all SDC members involved in this 'test' to be banned for attempted black-mail.

For the record I disagree with CL, but this 'test' and the way they went about it is more about 'SDC Propaganda' then any concern for the community.

 

[Kosmicwolf]

Not possible I'm afraid. FD have no way of knowing wether someones switch is developing a bad port, their neighbour is holding a microwave party, or a fibre landfall somewhere just had a boat crash into it.

Also - video evidence in Elite means absolutely nothing as far as proving combat logging - when the players taking the video can quite easily cut the connection to their victim and make it look like they combat logged when in fact, they are still connected and now either looking at the matchmaker error screen or stuck in a sound loop while they get re-routed.

If the connection of a player is faulty in any way. It's his problem. Other players should not suffer the consequences.
Open is an online game, a connection is a requirement.

I prefer the casual player loss by a wrong connection, to widespread cheating.