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I think you should advertise the location of criminals, but I also think criminals should be able to salvage and refine destroyed ships like minerals for credits and to cover up their crime.
Heavenly Hammer's Heavy Handed How-To Guide To REAL Crime & Punishment In ED.
- Thread starter Heavenly-Hammer
- Start date
That would be an interesting change up for sure. +rep
That seems super cool.
The insurance angle is probably a good one as it gives the PK'er shooter / greifer types some risk to carry and something to think about before opening up. Could be implemented much simpler like double their rebuy cost for every PK up until the full cost of the ship. Or simply add the victim's insurance cost to their rebuy without a cap. Also increase Security to badger them with interdictions and strong NPCs - give them some danger. Scale the badgering based on the # of kills. A day will come when they will lose their ship, and a lesson will be learned. Fix the logging first though LOL!
There needs to be some sort of significant monetary impact here as that's is what should be at stake for the victim: the loss of cargo/credits if pirated when trading.
There needs to be some sort of significant monetary impact here as that's is what should be at stake for the victim: the loss of cargo/credits if pirated when trading.
Good point. Doubling or even tripling rebuy would be a decent disincentive BUT...not to CMDRs walking around with billions in the bank (like me). I think that's why the updated bullet:
"Once you've been killed by a clean CMDR, the full cost of your current ship + a re-admittance fee to the Pilot's Federation of X% of your current available balance is required. At which time you are fully reinstated to the Pilot's Federation and are eligible for insurance as per usual."
Is essential. Because it scales the pain proportionally to your bank account balance. 15% of your current balance feels bad no matter how much money you have, for example.
Arguendo
Volunteer Moderator
A very nice list Heavenly-Hammer! Duly repped.
I would add a few minor tweeks.
1. Security Forces need a major buff! As it is now, a fully engineered PvP-buils can shrug off 6 SecFor ships shooting at it, while the cmdr continues his/her killing-spree. I would like there to be an escalation, where one kill will get you standard SecFor response, but as the kills rack up it so does SecFor response. The end-game would be fully modded+ Elite NPCs with continous chain interdictions, that makes it impossible to remain in the system or the surrounding areas. Literally, the player needs to be forced out of the region.
2. I like the 20LY region, and I would like this to escalate with kill-counts as well. Starting off with system only, then expanding to nearby systems as the kill-count goes up. Rumour flies fast and all that
3. Escalating insurance cost. I don't think a single kill should warrant 0 insurance. It should however escalate to a point where there is no insurance to be had, just like insurance companies won't insure you if you keep wrecking your car every week. Add to this that you are locked to the ship you committed the crimes in (ie. no shipyard access if wanted for murder) until your bounty has been claimed, there will be one less loophole.
Again, impressive list...and nice formatting
I would add a few minor tweeks.
1. Security Forces need a major buff! As it is now, a fully engineered PvP-buils can shrug off 6 SecFor ships shooting at it, while the cmdr continues his/her killing-spree. I would like there to be an escalation, where one kill will get you standard SecFor response, but as the kills rack up it so does SecFor response. The end-game would be fully modded+ Elite NPCs with continous chain interdictions, that makes it impossible to remain in the system or the surrounding areas. Literally, the player needs to be forced out of the region.
2. I like the 20LY region, and I would like this to escalate with kill-counts as well. Starting off with system only, then expanding to nearby systems as the kill-count goes up. Rumour flies fast and all that
3. Escalating insurance cost. I don't think a single kill should warrant 0 insurance. It should however escalate to a point where there is no insurance to be had, just like insurance companies won't insure you if you keep wrecking your car every week. Add to this that you are locked to the ship you committed the crimes in (ie. no shipyard access if wanted for murder) until your bounty has been claimed, there will be one less loophole.
Again, impressive list...and nice formatting
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The post regarding equal punishment for NPC's and CMDR's bring up a good point. It would have one code for everyone live or AI.
But,
NPC's just re-spawn, no past/future, exist for the instance so violation/punishment for NPC's has only a temporary existence . CMNDR's persist, so there is a difference. Punishment for players has lasting effect and is supposed to be a deterrent.
The C&P can't be cumbersome or entail masses of code. Criminal careers need to viable (pirating, assassinations, smuggling).
The issue we are dancing around are CMNDR's who are killing CMNDR's where the victim CMDR is an unwilling participant and suffers a loss. This should be a clean victim CMNDR, you have a bounty, all is fair.
IMHO, that is the issue to be hit with whatever "heavenly hammer" you want to wield. Easily said, hard to do but it is a focused response.
The other issue is re-balancing punishment, i.e., instadeath for a port parking violation seems a bit harsh.
But,
NPC's just re-spawn, no past/future, exist for the instance so violation/punishment for NPC's has only a temporary existence . CMNDR's persist, so there is a difference. Punishment for players has lasting effect and is supposed to be a deterrent.
The C&P can't be cumbersome or entail masses of code. Criminal careers need to viable (pirating, assassinations, smuggling).
The issue we are dancing around are CMNDR's who are killing CMNDR's where the victim CMDR is an unwilling participant and suffers a loss. This should be a clean victim CMNDR, you have a bounty, all is fair.
IMHO, that is the issue to be hit with whatever "heavenly hammer" you want to wield. Easily said, hard to do but it is a focused response.
The other issue is re-balancing punishment, i.e., instadeath for a port parking violation seems a bit harsh.
Arguendo
Volunteer Moderator
Unfortunately, that part is most likely implemented to stop players from using weaponless means to kill other players. There have been instances where a team of two kill another cmdr, using the mechanic you're talking about. 1 blocking the landing pad, while the other rams the cmdr to death. Without the lethal parking violation, this would quickly be the trollers preferred method.
I believe the issue with switching into cheaper ships can be solved by limiting bounty payouts to say 1/2 of ship rebuy value. That would mean that the wanted CMDR always loses more money than the killer gains and there is no money to be made by getting killed by friends. It would also mean that a CMDR can still be wanted after they died, if the bounty payout was limited and didn't clear the whole bounty.
However, this proposal seems too harsh towards players who got into an accident or got trolled by suicide rammers. Accidents do happen and I don't feel it's fair to have someone pay the full price of their ship + some extra. For most CMDRs this would mean instant bankruptcy. IMO there should be some longer term tracking (criminal record) and escalation of punishment, so that first offence uses something like current version and only repeat offenders (e.g. more than 1 kill in a week) get the harsh treatment.
However, this proposal seems too harsh towards players who got into an accident or got trolled by suicide rammers. Accidents do happen and I don't feel it's fair to have someone pay the full price of their ship + some extra. For most CMDRs this would mean instant bankruptcy. IMO there should be some longer term tracking (criminal record) and escalation of punishment, so that first offence uses something like current version and only repeat offenders (e.g. more than 1 kill in a week) get the harsh treatment.
That's not crime and punishment. That's tyrannical.
If that was the case I would just buy Anacondas and A rate them (losing only 10% of the hull cash) and keep my liquid cash balance low. If I ever wanted anything I could just sell modules.
My rather simple, and more the forward solution:
Clean player kills add a Pilots Federation bounty on you which although you are still only wanted in the system you committed the crime, a KWS will reveal the extra bounties. This added bounty is 3x the bounty of the one you got in system, but this one stays on file for 2 weeks and upon destruction, that Pilots Federation bounty is added to your rebuy.
Clean player kills add a Pilots Federation bounty on you which although you are still only wanted in the system you committed the crime, a KWS will reveal the extra bounties. This added bounty is 3x the bounty of the one you got in system, but this one stays on file for 2 weeks and upon destruction, that Pilots Federation bounty is added to your rebuy.
Just on this I am wondering if it is not better to have a wanted cmdr have to pay the insurance on a destroyed non wanted cmdr..
Human imagination to create mayhem never ceases to surprise me.
Everyone suffers because of the actions of a few, no wonder I play solo.
And the way this microcosm of a game mirrors RL is really quite striking, somebody could base a PhD dissertation on this phenomenon.
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No difference between NPCs and CMDRs regarding combat logging. Also. How can you log 7 times in a chain of bans that lasts longer than 120 days?
Also, I don't like that insurance part. Imagine I am a federal supporter and kill imperial CMDRs. Not only would my work bbe highly appreciated by the feds but I most likely would vet a bonus on top. I could imagine that tuey would happily help me inn case I lose my ship.
Then again, I think 20LY radius is too low. Deny any station that is controlled by the minor or major faction.
Also, when someone combat logs they simply go to solo/private so their ban/warning time will expire. It won't help the problem at all. Either make them stay in open to play there atleast a couple of hours or ban them from open right away.
It should not only be equal against NPCs but even stronger. While PvP is something that can only happen in open and eventually private, solo is soley for PvE. That said, open and private are also for PvE. So if logging is done in PvE deny access to any PvE mode, basically every mode. Losing the ship against players or NPCs is the same. The aim is to stop them logging or pay the credits for their failure.
Other than that I really like the idea of player bounties with ingame penalties. Especially when it comes to superpowers.
Btw, what is meant woth reduction of the insurance to 5%? It is already 5% isn't it?
Also, I don't like that insurance part. Imagine I am a federal supporter and kill imperial CMDRs. Not only would my work bbe highly appreciated by the feds but I most likely would vet a bonus on top. I could imagine that tuey would happily help me inn case I lose my ship.
Then again, I think 20LY radius is too low. Deny any station that is controlled by the minor or major faction.
Also, when someone combat logs they simply go to solo/private so their ban/warning time will expire. It won't help the problem at all. Either make them stay in open to play there atleast a couple of hours or ban them from open right away.
It should not only be equal against NPCs but even stronger. While PvP is something that can only happen in open and eventually private, solo is soley for PvE. That said, open and private are also for PvE. So if logging is done in PvE deny access to any PvE mode, basically every mode. Losing the ship against players or NPCs is the same. The aim is to stop them logging or pay the credits for their failure.
Other than that I really like the idea of player bounties with ingame penalties. Especially when it comes to superpowers.
Btw, what is meant woth reduction of the insurance to 5%? It is already 5% isn't it?
I mentioned it elsewhere I think, but I don't believe this will be enough of a deterrent. Consider:
- Most CMDRs into serious PvP, Ganking and Griefing are sitting on a billion or more credits.
- Most ships they target have rebuys less than $3 million
For them, causing you frustration is worth the pittance of a few hundred thousand or even a few million credits. Plus, the ganked CMDR still suffers additional losses in the way of any bounties or cargo he was looking to turn in or sell. Any incomplete missions may be lost.
So while I'd be okay with the ganker paying a the aggrieved CMDRs insurance bill, I think the other stuff probably needs to remain. Otherwise, not enough financial disincentive. IMO, anyway.
First off, great post. Rep for you! There are parts I agree with, parts I disagree with, and parts I think need to be tweaked slightly. First, I'll dissect the parts I agree with.
Well thought out idea here. This will be helpful in friendly PvP as well, as somebody always forgets to turn it off. I don't think I've seen it get to the point where someone was killed with it on, but some kind of pardon system would be useful. Something where the player killed can pardon the player who killed them.
All good ideas here and agreed.
Now for the things I don't agree with and the parts that may need some tweaking.
Overall, I feel these penalties may be too severe. We don't want to eliminate criminal activity completely. We just need the tools to allow players to police it themselves. The system security should behave the same whether a player or a NPC is killed. The docking ban could work, but it should only be at stations where the bounty issuing faction is in control, not just present. I think the Founders penalty is too much, unless of course the crime occurred in Founders, in which case it would apply like the example above. Also, the loss insurance loss is too penalizing. It doesn't work when you get up to the larger ships. Imagine a 1 billion credit rebuy in a Cutter or Corvette! Instead, the rebuy cost should be multiplied based on the number of clean ships killed. 4 times the rebuy cost should be the max, plus the value of the bounties accrued. However, the way I envision bounties working, they couldn't simply die and pay this off. This increased rebuy and bounty would have to be payed every time they are killed for the duration of their bounty, be it 7 or 14 days. 7 days from their most recent crime would probably make the most sense, since that's how it is now.
I don't know how this would be implemented, but it would be solved by my method above. They would have to pay the more expensive rebuy plus the bounties, and their bounty would still remain for 7 days. In no way would dying help the criminal. His wanted status and bounties would remain. One problem (or benefit) is that it could be used as a means of transferring credits between CMDRs. But the player being killed would be paying the bounty to the other player plus their rebuy, so I don't see this as being a problem as it's not 'free' money.
A few other things not mentioned. There needs to be a way for bounty hunting CMDRs to track wanted CMDRs. The should be a galaxy wide bounty board available at starports detailing the name, crime, location, bounty value, and ship type of the wanted CMDR. This board could even be made available in a bounty hunter's ship if they have a KWS equipped. One other idea I had, is for CMDRs to be able to defend stations from wanted CMDRs and NPCs without being fired upon and destroyed by the station. A requirement for this could be allied status with the controlling faction, but it should be implemented for CMDRs who roleplay security forces and for those who are involved with minor factions through the BGS.
I think that covers everything. I hope I didn't leave anything out.
Makes sense. I would add that the bounty should not clear on death either. In this case 21 days might be too long. Keep it at 7 or 14 days max.
Sounds good.
This 1000x!!!. These two need to happen. 150m/s speed limit would be perfect and getting wanted for destroying unmanned drones is ridiculous.
Well thought out idea here. This will be helpful in friendly PvP as well, as somebody always forgets to turn it off. I don't think I've seen it get to the point where someone was killed with it on, but some kind of pardon system would be useful. Something where the player killed can pardon the player who killed them.
All good ideas here and agreed.
Now for the things I don't agree with and the parts that may need some tweaking.
Overall, I feel these penalties may be too severe. We don't want to eliminate criminal activity completely. We just need the tools to allow players to police it themselves. The system security should behave the same whether a player or a NPC is killed. The docking ban could work, but it should only be at stations where the bounty issuing faction is in control, not just present. I think the Founders penalty is too much, unless of course the crime occurred in Founders, in which case it would apply like the example above. Also, the loss insurance loss is too penalizing. It doesn't work when you get up to the larger ships. Imagine a 1 billion credit rebuy in a Cutter or Corvette! Instead, the rebuy cost should be multiplied based on the number of clean ships killed. 4 times the rebuy cost should be the max, plus the value of the bounties accrued. However, the way I envision bounties working, they couldn't simply die and pay this off. This increased rebuy and bounty would have to be payed every time they are killed for the duration of their bounty, be it 7 or 14 days. 7 days from their most recent crime would probably make the most sense, since that's how it is now.
I don't know how this would be implemented, but it would be solved by my method above. They would have to pay the more expensive rebuy plus the bounties, and their bounty would still remain for 7 days. In no way would dying help the criminal. His wanted status and bounties would remain. One problem (or benefit) is that it could be used as a means of transferring credits between CMDRs. But the player being killed would be paying the bounty to the other player plus their rebuy, so I don't see this as being a problem as it's not 'free' money.
A few other things not mentioned. There needs to be a way for bounty hunting CMDRs to track wanted CMDRs. The should be a galaxy wide bounty board available at starports detailing the name, crime, location, bounty value, and ship type of the wanted CMDR. This board could even be made available in a bounty hunter's ship if they have a KWS equipped. One other idea I had, is for CMDRs to be able to defend stations from wanted CMDRs and NPCs without being fired upon and destroyed by the station. A requirement for this could be allied status with the controlling faction, but it should be implemented for CMDRs who roleplay security forces and for those who are involved with minor factions through the BGS.
I think that covers everything. I hope I didn't leave anything out.
Good post. A heavy handed approach is going into the right direction. I hope this will be counterbalanced by some new opportunities and objectives for PVP; that's for FDev to sort out.
On the 20ly no-docking radius: probably not enough. Maybe this can be tied to the jump range of the offending ship. A distance of four to five jumps is probably enough of a deterrence.
On the 20ly no-docking radius: probably not enough. Maybe this can be tied to the jump range of the offending ship. A distance of four to five jumps is probably enough of a deterrence.