An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

5 golds & lots of upvotes = huge amount of support for the investigation and its discussion from the Reddit community, who want it to be seen and joined in by as many users as possible. The Reddit rule "Psychological vote manipulation" refers to statements like "upvote this if you like/want..." etc.

I figured as much with the true intent of that rule, Reddit wouldn't really work well if upvoting or downvoting or golds were not allowed - I just felt like pointing out (tongue-in-cheek, as it were) that, if taken in a strictly literal sense, that is indeed "psychological vote manipulation". I'm willing to bet most of those golds came from within SDC, but who knows.

Support tickets relating to Combat Logging and other cheats are "actual tickets" and important, as stated by Zac, Brett and Dale. Just because you (and possibly some other CMDRs) don't think cheating is important is irrelevant, as FDev think differently (quite rightly).

Yes, we all know that Fdev has to step up and make an official statement. They rightly are proud of a public image of being communicative and open to the community, especially compared to other games I could mention, anybody with 2 bits of common sense could have predicted that move - which is why it's easy to imagine SDC wanted to provoke that response on purpose.

The reality is that Support, like any other help center in the world, has to prioritize and discriminate requests based upon their relevance and level of dire need. It's the only way they can possibly hope to meet the demands of such a job. Hiring more and more people to work in Support is neither cost-effective nor will ever solve that problem unless you get a 1-1 ratio of Support workers to customers...and with a playerbase of millions, that's a hell of a lot of people you're asking for Fdev to hire. Plus, "temp staffing" only leads to uninformed & poor Support service, in my experience, and Frontier has a rather high standard thus far to uphold - so that's also not an ideal answer.

If even I can read between the lines and see that these SDC tickets are loaded, presumably with the intent of stirring up drama, I don't blame Support whatsoever for not glancing at the youtube videos in question - and again, as Dale and others have already pointed out, whatever is in those youtube videos is often entirely irrelevant to what Fdev actually does look at to determine whether a combat-logging exploit took place. (I would imagine the netlogs, telemetry, etc. are what's looked at.)

Additionally, the fact that you yourself declare combat logging to be outright "cheating", when there are many cases where it is not, makes me inclined to question your supposed impartial bias regarding all this....

We moderators on ED Reddit couldn't care less why SDC or other CMDRs are banned from these official forums

Which merely adds to my just-mentioned skepticism.

I've lurked on the Elite subreddit since before I actually started playing Elite myself. I've seen for myself what SDC has posted on reddit in the past. It has been of a derogatory, discriminatory, rabble-rousing manner, same as it has been here on the official Elite forums. While I admit, lately, I haven't seen many SDC posts like that, there's no "duplicity" here where SDC is just some honorable PvP group over on Reddit who just happens to be ostracized and hated on the official Elite forums. It's a grand narrative to carry, but again, it's just another comical farce.

Meanwhile, "there is no such thing as bad publicity".

HAH! Tell that to "Hello Games".

Would you have responded differently to this Investigation (post) if Adles Armada had done it, the large Player Group that polices the starter/newbie sector and have equal (if not more) issues with Combat Loggers (newbie-killers)? They arguably submit more CL-related tickets than SDC et al.

Yes. Because I can trust that Adles Armada wouldn't have posted a big stinkthread on Reddit with the intent of stirring up a crapstorm, intentionally painting Fdev in a negative light and casting themselves as the heroes of the people. I'll point out the fairly obvious fact that they haven't done so, too.


Yes, I get the humor, but these '50 reasons' can be summarized into the following:
1. Powerplay (I highly doubt this is a big slice of the pie)
2. "They aren't part of my player group, so they must DIE" [rolleyes]
3. "I, unprovoked, shot at other CMDRs minding their own business in a spot that is being publicized on the forums and would obviously have other CMDRs heading there! Why, what's wrong?"
4. Piracy (which doesn't actually dictate the act of shooting the target, despite what NPCs want us to currently believe...)
5. (Ziggy already mentioned reason number 5 on my list.)
6. Reason 42 is actually valid, assuming one's mother has a reputation to uphold!
 
The solution has already been proposed: Just play the destruction animation if someone use combat logging and everyone is happy.

Would you spare a thought for ...

... Power players

... Power play undermining

... Power play HQ defence

... and PvP bounty hunters

... and pirates

... system PvP BGS defenders

... and attackers

... and Adle's Armada defending Eravate and the surrounding area against sidey-slaughterers ... who log

... and Imperial Cmdrs defending CG's against pro-Federation outcomes

... and Federation Cmdrs defending CG's against pro-Imperial outcomes

The fact is that if you abolish loss - if everyone is immortal and can respawn infinitely without penalty - you abolish one heck of a lot of the multiplayer game.
 
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Additionally, the fact that you yourself declare combat logging to be outright "cheating", when there are many cases where it is not, makes me inclined to question your supposed impartial bias regarding all this....
I'm happy to admit I'm biased against cheaters in multiplayer games. Combat Logging is endemic in the ED community, especially here on the official forums, with CL-recommendations, excuses and justifications from a significant number of CMDRs. All brought about through an apparent lack of strong action on FDev's part. CMDRs have gotten used to doing it for crying out loud.

If someone loses server-connection (for whatever reason, cheating or not) in Open play Combat, I personally think they should be suitably punished in-game when they log back in (rebuy screen being the obvious example) - like other multiplayer games do, especially ones with perma-death (traditional MMOs keep your character "alive" for a few minutes to be killed, but that wouldn't work for ED). If CMDRs don't want to risk it, because of an iffy internet connection for example, then Private Group or Solo are available and perfectly playable.

Regarding ED Reddit's policy on Combat Logging: "encouragement of cheats and/or exploits are not allowed" - the modteam are unanimous in support of this specific rule, as there is no excuse for cheating in a multiplayer game (never mind that ED has two playmodes without gankers anyway).

Which merely adds to my just-mentioned skepticism.

I've lurked on the Elite subreddit since before I actually started playing Elite myself. I've seen for myself what SDC has posted on reddit in the past. It has been of a derogatory, discriminatory, rabble-rousing manner, same as it has been here on the official Elite forums. While I admit, lately, I haven't seen many SDC posts like that, there's no "duplicity" here where SDC is just some honorable PvP group over on Reddit who just happens to be ostracized and hated on the official Elite forums. It's a grand narrative to carry, but again, it's just another comical farce.
Hahaha! SDC aren't seen as honourable, how on Earth did you get that impression? The Reddit community sees them as rabble-rousers too, with exchanges between SDC and other CMDRs often being moderated for breaching the rules - all posts and comments are mod'd as consistently as possible. But hey, I suppose you see what you want to see.

We won't be changing our open-to-all policy in the ED Reddit because some CMDRs think we should be prejudiced against or segregate other CMDRs, under the justification of "we don't like what they do". We temp/perma ban CMDRs for repeated infractions where appropriate. As Brett accurately said: "However, /r/EliteDangerous is a bit more liberal in their moderation practices (i think!), where as here it's a little more strict." If you don't like our open access and moderation policy, then that's ok too :) Our varied modteam are happy with the the Reddit currently: we're the 2nd largest ED community, traffic is nicely steady (tracking with the game's active playerbase as expected), and gaining 100 new subscribers daily - so we must be doing something right :S

HAH! Tell that to "Hello Games".
The marketing for that game was very successful: the pre-orders alone probably made them $50m. Not bad results for such a shoddy game.

Yes. Because I can trust that Adles Armada wouldn't have posted a big stinkthread on Reddit with the intent of stirring up a crapstorm, intentionally painting Fdev in a negative light and casting themselves as the heroes of the people. I'll point out the fairly obvious fact that they haven't done so, too.
True that - because Adles Armada & SDC chose for the latter to do the investigation with their love for creating drama and being the centre of attention. Both groups organise and co-moderate the EliteCombatLoggers Reddit btw, and have been concerned with an apparent lack of CL-punishment action from FDev for quite some time.

Do I think the OP was over-dramatised and in some places inflammatory? Yes. Am I happy with its outcome for rallying the community into discussing the put-on-the-backburner issues of CL and C&P? Definitely. Do I think there's a nice bonus of publicity out of it? Yes, that too. Will SDC be quiet for a while? Probably not :(
 
Yes, we all know that Fdev has to step up and make an official statement. They rightly are proud of a public image of being communicative and open to the community, especially compared to other games I could mention, anybody with 2 bits of common sense could have predicted that move - which is why it's easy to imagine SDC wanted to provoke that response on purpose.

I really hated it how, when FDev finally made their statement, SDC arrogantly paraded around being "right". Of course FDev was going to make the statement. Especially with the overall mood of the community.

Yes. Because I can trust that Adles Armada wouldn't have posted a big stinkthread on Reddit with the intent of stirring up a crapstorm, intentionally painting Fdev in a negative light and casting themselves as the heroes of the people. I'll point out the fairly obvious fact that they haven't done so, too.

I've never really had any beef with SDC prior to this event, and you'd be hard pressed to find anything I said bad about them, but this is, single handed, the second *h*tiest thing I have seen an online gaming community do. The first being when the Goonswarm leader in EVE pressured someone into committing suicide.
Their in game behavior is starting to bleed into their real lives.
 
I've never really had any beef with SDC prior to this event, and you'd be hard pressed to find anything I said bad about them, but this is, single handed, the second *h*tiest thing I have seen an online gaming community do. The first being when the Goonswarm leader in EVE pressured someone into committing suicide.
Their in game behavior is starting to bleed into their real lives.

If you mean TheMittani, "tried to pressure" is the word. He got drunk at Fanfest and prompted those watching the panel he was on to harass the guy into committing suicide. He paid a fairly heavy price for his stupidity. https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/29/the-mittanis-crime-punishment-in-eve-online/ To his credit he made it up to the guy with a formal apology and in-game assets, but it makes you wonder.
 
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I've just returned to the forum from a long hiatus and find this thread hilarious. I mean - seriously. This game is anything but competitive. Let combat-loggers log. Really folks, there are bigger issues to resolve in life! That's most likely also why FD isn't doing much to combat them. They simply don't care because it simply doesn't matter - in the bigger scheme of things. Anyway, thanks for the chuckles.
 
I have an idea for a system FDEV could use to stop logging.

Every time someone disconnects from the game while IN COMBAT, meaning the game has detected shots fired and hit, they are locked out of OPEN for 30 minutes. If they do it again within 24 hours of the first incident, double the time locked out, up to 3 times. After the 3rd time, they are locked out of the whole game for 12 hours. After that point, they are on probation for 30 days. ANY logging within the probationary period is an automatic 12 hour lock out, and the 30 days starts over.
This way people with bad connections aren't penalized accidentally. At least not much.
Of course appeals could be made for extenuating circumstances.
 
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I have an idea for a system FDEV could use to stop logging.

Every time someone disconnects from the game while IN COMBAT, meaning the game has detected shots fired and hit, they are locked out of OPEN for 30 minutes. If they do it again within 24 hours of the first incident, double the time locked out, up to 3 times. After the 3rd time, they are locked out of the whole game for 12 hours. After that point, they are on probation for 30 days. ANY logging within the probationary period is an automatic 12 hour lock out, and the 30 days starts over.
This way people with bad connections aren't penalized accidentally. At least not much.
Of course appeals could be made for extenuating circumstances.

Unfortunately - there are two very simple ways to get around that while remaining in-game and initiating a valid menu logout.
 
If you mean TheMittani, "tried to pressure" is the word. He got drunk at Fanfest and prompted those watching the panel he was on to harass the guy into committing suicide. He paid a fairly heavy price for his stupidity. https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/29/the-mittanis-crime-punishment-in-eve-online/ To his credit he made it up to the guy with a formal apology and in-game assets, but it makes you wonder.

I don't want to start a huge argument over a game I've never played. But while reading that article I was actually starting to believe that it was just a case of saying something stupid while drunk rather than of drunkenness hindering the ability to hide his true nature.

Right up until the update at the end where he expresses surprise that apologising didn't make it all go away and then goes off on a tangent about how it's a conspiracy to persecute him. Those are ... let's say telling behaviours.
 
I have an idea for a system FDEV could use to stop logging.

Every time someone disconnects from the game while IN COMBAT, meaning the game has detected shots fired and hit, they are locked out of OPEN for 30 minutes. If they do it again within 24 hours of the first incident, double the time locked out, up to 3 times. After the 3rd time, they are locked out of the whole game for 12 hours. After that point, they are on probation for 30 days. ANY logging within the probationary period is an automatic 12 hour lock out, and the 30 days starts over.
This way people with bad connections aren't penalized accidentally. At least not much.
Of course appeals could be made for extenuating circumstances.
You assume too much with regards to network reliability besides which I think the measures are far too draconic.

You will be creating even more of a problem for FD not less IMO, the current reporting system is fair enough and it is up to FD to judge when and if a player should be shadow banned or not - not us.
 
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Poe's solution might work for that handful of active PVPers who choose to combat log when facing an unexpected loss (as long as they don't employ one of Asp's workarounds) because it will temporarily deny them access to their preferred play style. But for most encounters surely it's just going to annoy the attacker even more than a standard CL? Player A attacks Player B, Player B logs out, Player A is denied whatever dubious pleasure they were about to obtain from the pixel dust and is guaranteed not to be able to find Player B again in Open for at least 30 minutes, possibly hours. I'd expect those keeping and sharing KOS lists of known loggers would be particularly vocal.
 
Every player must send in a video to FD showing how they crazy-glued their network cable to the jack so it's impossible to pull out. There, done. Finito. Solved. :)
 
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