An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[NeilF]

I wouldn't, I would attempt escape. If I lost my ship then I lose my ship. That's just part of selecting open play.

True, but maybe penalising needless/pointless toxic activities should be part of selecting open play too?

I guess some of us just set a higher standard of behaviour for ourselves.

Isn't that comment rather ironic considering we're talking to a large degree about individuals who's aim is to needlessly interdict and destroy other players, for the simple reason they derive enjoyment out of causing grief and aggravation to others?

Maybe it's time to consider those wise words and reward such standards and behaviour, and penalise the (toxic) contrary?

 

[Vorxian]

this...

hell i dont even play skyrim or fallout without the old TGM console command.....

games are like a book or movie...a escape from ones own life...to be something we are not.......to be in my own bubble/world.

aint my fault they keep making games online all the bloomin time....

pc gaming for me is all about trainers,scripts....and everything for free....

if i wanted vanilla gaming id go back to the consoles.


also some of us been doing this stuff since the zx spectrum..........couldnt care less about crappy multiplayer...i play games for my enjoyment.

im a old school gamer....before the online pew pew kids ruined it.

+1 for having an open mind.

We run our own Ark server. Whilst we don't want everything to be free, or resources so abundant that you take the exploration away... we do have pretty much all settings stamped up by about 30 times.

Many many players say... Hey Vorxian thanks for the awesome server, the most fun ever on Ark.. the question is why? well, when you take away the grind, and let players actually PLAY, then flexing those creative juice glands is far more fun than being tied down to arbitrary time sinks to do 10% of what you really want in game. Ark is all about stretching ones imagination, exploring, resource gathering and building yourself ever increasingly cool and complex 'homes'.

Obviously ED is different to Ark, but along the same train of thought if someone could use a cheat console to give themselves 20 billion credits.. the chances are that no matter what they buy / do, they can do no more than me who used "'cash cow' "opportunities" to milk credit oversights to go out in an ASP exploring the wonders of various nebula clouds.. If all payouts in game were 30x what they are now, people would be having a blast doing what they want to do... That's what I'd do if I could create an ED server, just like our Ark server..



Join me for a glass of controversy!

Cheers!

 

[Space Dandy]

+1 for having an open mind.

We run our own Ark server. Whilst we don't want everything to be free, or resources so abundant that you take the exploration away... we do have pretty much all settings stamped up by about 30 times.

Many many players say... Hey Vorxian thanks for the awesome server, the most fun ever on Ark.. the question is why? well, when you take away the grind, and let players actually PLAY, then flexing those creative juice glands is far more fun than being tied down to arbitrary time sinks to do 10% of what you really want in game. Ark is all about stretching ones imagination, exploring, resource gathering and building yourself ever increasingly cool and complex 'homes'.

Obviously ED is different to Ark, but along the same train of thought if someone could use a cheat console to give themselves 20 billion credits.. the chances are that no matter what they buy / do, they can do no more than me who used "'cash cow' "opportunities" to milk credit oversights to go out in an ASP exploring the wonders of various nebula clouds.. If all payouts in game were 30x what they are now, people would be having a blast doing what they want to do... That's what I'd do if I could create an ED server, just like our Ark server..



Join me for a glass of controversy!

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=10434353

Cheers!

I would play on your server.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You're wrong in the head
.

I guess some of us just set a higher standard of behaviour for ourselves.

I can see why so many of SDC are banned with comments like that!

. Btw if you are gonna be judge jury and exocutioner of those who do not want to play with you at leqst be honest enough to play by your own rules. SDC have been seen at one time or another doing every exploit in the book. Hypocrisy is worse than cheating in my book or are you saying i am wrong?

 

[Artemis Zodiac]

+1 for having an open mind.

We run our own Ark server. Whilst we don't want everything to be free, or resources so abundant that you take the exploration away... we do have pretty much all settings stamped up by about 30 times.

Many many players say... Hey Vorxian thanks for the awesome server, the most fun ever on Ark.. the question is why? well, when you take away the grind, and let players actually PLAY, then flexing those creative juice glands is far more fun than being tied down to arbitrary time sinks to do 10% of what you really want in game. Ark is all about stretching ones imagination, exploring, resource gathering and building yourself ever increasingly cool and complex 'homes'.

Obviously ED is different to Ark, but along the same train of thought if someone could use a cheat console to give themselves 20 billion credits.. the chances are that no matter what they buy / do, they can do no more than me who used "'cash cow' "opportunities" to milk credit oversights to go out in an ASP exploring the wonders of various nebula clouds.. If all payouts in game were 30x what they are now, people would be having a blast doing what they want to do... That's what I'd do if I could create an ED server, just like our Ark server..



Join me for a glass of controversy!

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=10434353

Cheers!

Why thankyou squire.......Bottoms up!

 

[DarkWalker]

I guess some of us just set a higher standard of behaviour for ourselves.

Higher? No. Rather, different.

Particularly I consider making sure everyone taking part in the interaction is having fun to be the most important aspect in multiplayer interaction. That is what I consider the higher standard, something those that would attack another player without first making sure their target will enjoy the fight clearly fail at.

---

We run our own Ark server. Whilst we don't want everything to be free, or resources so abundant that you take the exploration away... we do have pretty much all settings stamped up by about 30 times.

Many many players say... Hey Vorxian thanks for the awesome server, the most fun ever on Ark.. the question is why? well, when you take away the grind, and let players actually PLAY, then flexing those creative juice glands is far more fun than being tied down to arbitrary time sinks to do 10% of what you really want in game. Ark is all about stretching ones imagination, exploring, resource gathering and building yourself ever increasingly cool and complex 'homes'.

Obviously ED is different to Ark, but along the same train of thought if someone could use a cheat console to give themselves 20 billion credits.. the chances are that no matter what they buy / do, they can do no more than me who used "'cash cow' "opportunities" to milk credit oversights to go out in an ASP exploring the wonders of various nebula clouds.. If all payouts in game were 30x what they are now, people would be having a blast doing what they want to do... That's what I'd do if I could create an ED server, just like our Ark server.

That is why saying cheaters are cheating themselves out of enjoying the game is at best a half-truth.

Cheating is basically changing the game rules. Playing by rules different from what the devs intended. It's true that giving cheats to those that don't know what they actually enjoy often results in them removing elements of the game they would have enjoyed, but on the other hand players that know which elements of the game they enjoy, and which they don't, can use cheats to reinforce the desirable elements and reduce or remove the unwanted ones. My playthroughs of Elder Scrolls and Fallout games, for example, always use a large number of mods you could consider cheats (and a fair number that either add extra gameplay elements or make some other elements harder); my shortest playthrough of those games, when properly modded, is already over a hundred hours, while I often can't last five hours if playing the non-modded version, which clearly shows that "cheating" in those games greatly add to my enjoyment.

(And also shows why I consider the console versions of Elder Scrolls and Fallout games to be not worth bothering with, while I consider their PC versions to be among the best games ever created. But I digress.)

BTW: I purchased ED for the offline mode. Had it been delivered, I wouldn't even be taking part in threads like this; I would be instead playing the game offline, tuned in the way that would maximize my enjoyment, while leaving online for those that crave for social interaction more than they crave for controlling their game experience.

 

[JerryLove]

When said cheating goes unaddressed? Yes. Nobody cares about single player cheating. Multiplayer cheating, if nothing is done about it, ruins that game, every time.

Don't pretend as if you don't know what was meant.

It's not pretend. I have no idea what you mean.

So now your claim is "unaddressed cheating always ruins multiplayer games"

Given that new rule: if I found a cheat that would turn by HUD from Amber to Blue, and FD didn't address it, it would ruin ED?

I'd guess you'd say "no" and modify the rule again; but what's the modified rule now? "it effects me?".

OK. So if I found a cheat to change the *outside* of the ship to blue?

I'm guessing you'd still say "no"... but I cannot imagine how you would change your rule to make combat logging clearly fit it.

Which brings you right back to "but I don't like it", I suspect more in principle than practice, which is fine but uncompelling.

You're wrong in the head

[...]

I guess some of us just set a higher standard of behaviour for ourselves.

A standard that has name calling in place of responses to issues?

 

[tomeagles]

Heck Fly out of a station with a few wanted passengers get destroyed by the base station or security in seconds, knock off some NPC's for an assasination mission the cops show up really fast Kill another CMDR and you can quuite happilly continue to fly round in SC without being interdicted by npc's etc.

Why not get the response times down to something much quicker so there is a response to an attack. This way it adds to the risk and scale it something like this. (Just a base idea)


1. Interdict another player even NPC then cops show up in say 90 seconds
2. Open fire first on another player cops tuurn up in 60 seconds.
3. Kill another pllayer and uuntil ya clear ya bounty on ya head you are an automatic target for NPC cops and BH's and they will interdict,
4. The bigger the bounty on ya head the faster the response and strength is.

Using a model similar to this would require almost no major code changes as response times have been tweaked in the past, and may lead to less combat logging as player who have been attacked know that help is on the way. Give Pirates time to do their thing, the blow em up guys time to try and blow ya up and the traders etc time to run and wait for backup to arrive or dump thier cargo for the pirate without resorting to logging etc,

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I play in solo. I feel really stupid for the 35 times NPC's have killed me, and I have not logged out. Lost uncounted millions.

Now, I know that if humans are the attackers, it (combat logging) is a crime, punishable by death. (loudspeaker reverb)

So, since I have eaten 35 insurance claims, without combat logging, ever, in solo, what should my punishment be?

Deadlier NPC's because Open Is Bored?

 

[Vorxian]

Higher? No. Rather, different.

Particularly I consider making sure everyone taking part in the interaction is having fun to be the most important aspect in multiplayer interaction. That is what I consider the higher standard, something those that would attack another player without first making sure their target will enjoy the fight clearly fail at.

---

That is why saying cheaters are cheating themselves out of enjoying the game is at best a half-truth.

Cheating is basically changing the game rules. Playing by rules different from what the devs intended. It's true that giving cheats to those that don't know what they actually enjoy often results in them removing elements of the game they would have enjoyed, but on the other hand players that know which elements of the game they enjoy, and which they don't, can use cheats to reinforce the desirable elements and reduce or remove the unwanted ones. My playthroughs of Elder Scrolls and Fallout games, for example, always use a large number of mods you could consider cheats (and a fair number that either add extra gameplay elements or make some other elements harder); my shortest playthrough of those games, when properly modded, is already over a hundred hours, while I often can't last five hours if playing the non-modded version, which clearly shows that "cheating" in those games greatly add to my enjoyment.

(And also shows why I consider the console versions of Elder Scrolls and Fallout games to be not worth bothering with, while I consider their PC versions to be among the best games ever created. But I digress.)

BTW: I purchased ED for the offline mode. Had it been delivered, I wouldn't even be taking part in threads like this; I would be instead playing the game offline, tuned in the way that would maximize my enjoyment, while leaving online for those that crave for social interaction more than they crave for controlling their game experience.

Pretty much put perfectly.

Think my all time record for hours played is joint between Ark survival, and Skyrim. Both have been modded to the moon and back, and for me it's added so much to the games, tweaked places that would have been blockers, and changed the game settings that the devs got wrong. Each to their own, and the way I see games may be different to others, but ultimately if I put down a game because i'm tired of xyz, it doesn't mean the game is bad at all, it just means I have hit blockers that are more motivation taxing than I'm willing to put in overcoming them. Overcoming some hurdles aren't fun, they don't 'add to the game' they're just there because... they're there? Sad state of affairs when you stop at a pointless hurdle, when a minor tweak could see you another 2000 hours of gaming pleasure. That's on the developers, not the player.. which is exactly why games come with a console, or 'cheat modes' that actually enhance gaming experience should the player choose to use it. THAT is the choice of the player, and is on the player.

In ED we do not get this. PvErs get an open mode where we're fish in a barrel. We get solo, where we're isolated from any human interaction, and we get private groups where we have to actually know people and belong to some kind of exclusive club where we can just play with others. Where's our PvE open server? well there isn't one. Someone telling me that I should be playing ED this way or that way or their way, and not MY way.. is like just building blockers for no reason.

ED has thousands of hours of fun to be had. OPEN is a pathway to that nice big field of green green grass, just a shame that path is all but closed to the non-consenting. Perhaps, just perhaps, combat logging is a desperate attempt to avoid the blockers, in a vain attempt to enjoy the game in an OPEN environment.

The OP and the crew jumping up and down about it obviously have little empathy to those that see OPEN as the ticket to fun times, yet avoiding the drudgery of all the things that folks wish were not forced on them, unnecessarily.

I'm waffling way too much here..

TLDR.. what DarkWalker said! ^^

 

[Javert]

I play in solo. I feel really stupid for the 35 times NPC's have killed me, and I have not logged out. Lost uncounted millions.

Now, I know that if humans are the attackers, it (combat logging) is a crime, punishable by death. (loudspeaker reverb)

So, since I have eaten 35 insurance claims, without combat logging, ever, in solo, what should my punishment be?

Deadlier NPC's because Open Is Bored?

Well, for good or ill, it seems like at the moment it's between you and your conscience. FD have said that combat logging is against the rules and they don't want you to do it. However, from all their comments, it appears that they are only looking into it based on player reports (and even then I'm sure it requires multiple reports against the same player).

Therefore if you're in solo, I think it's your decision. I guess it's no different to when you died in single player game and reload your save.

 

[Karunamon]

Given that new rule: if I found a cheat that would turn by HUD from Amber to Blue, and FD didn't address it, it would ruin ED?

How, pray tell, is that a cheat, or for that matter any of the other stuff in your increasingly contrived, bad-faith examples? Combat logging isn't equivalent to color changing and you bloody well know it.

 

[JerryLove]

How, pray tell, is that a cheat, or for that matter any of the other stuff in your increasingly contrived, bad-faith examples?

How is it not a cheat?

Perhaps you should define the word "cheat"

Combat logging isn't equivalent to color changing and you bloody well know it.

You are accusing me of false equivalency when I never made such a claim.

Here's what you said that is being discussed

Multiplayer cheating, if nothing is done about it, ruins that game, every time.

Now you are telling me that changing my ship color isn't cheating? OK. What is cheating (definition, not example) in this context?

 

[Karunamon]

How is it not a cheat? You are accusing me of false equivalency when I never made such a claim.

We're talking about combat logging, and you compare it to changing the color of your HUD or ship.

I really have to conclude that you're just trolling now. Welcome to the ignore list.

 

[DarkWalker]

How is it not a cheat?

A deeper discussion about cheating has one interesting issue: different people not only have different opinions about when and where cheating is acceptable, they have different opinions about what can even be considered a cheat.

For example, in a pen and paper RPG, is a game master fumbling the rolls cheating? Even if he is doing that in order to make for a more enjoyable game session? What if the game itself recommends breaking the rules?

This is where the whole thing about comparing combat logging with cheating unravels. Some people consider being able to force players to get to the end of a fight always important; some only find it important in certain cases; some don't see any reason to bother forcing players to finish the fight, so it doesn't bother them when players use combat logging to flee; and some even see griefing and some kinds of PvP as a more important issue to the point they consider using a potential exploit (such as combat logging) to avoid it as justifiable.

BTW: I don't consider combat logging as cheating. It's an exploit at best (i.e., using a characteristic of the system — in this case how it handles disconnections — in an unintended way). And one I don't consider worth worrying about, given how the game is meant to allow players to choose who they will play with, and who they won't play with, in the first place.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Illuminati specifically *authorizes* cheating.

 

[rdizz]

An easy fix would be your ship won't log out for 15 seconds or something like that old mmo everquest.

 

[JerryLove]

We're talking about combat logging, and you compare it to changing the color of your HUD or ship.

I really have to conclude that you're just trolling now. Welcome to the ignore list.

So... you won't be answering the question of how you are defining "cheating" that "combat logging" is cheating but "turning my ship blue" is not cheating?

Calling me a troll seems like a terribly convenient way to avoid having to support your (unsupportable) claim.

- - - Updated - - -

A deeper discussion about cheating has one interesting issue: different people not only have different opinions about when and where cheating is acceptable, they have different opinions about what can even be considered a cheat.

Both very true.

Karunamon had made an unsupportable (demonstrably untrue) claim in regards to a work he didn't have a fixed definition for. But he seems to have abandoned the discussion once he saw the trap he put himself in.

 

[Ozram]

Out of curiosity, I thought SDC had no interest in BGS (or anything besides irritating other commanders), so what's this about?

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/311597-Smiling-Dog-Crew-Colonia-Expansion-Initiative

 

[Sugarat]

So... you won't be answering the question of how you are defining "cheating" that "combat logging" is cheating but "turning my ship blue" is not cheating?

FD have stated that combat logging is cheating.. they are also aware that people change their hud colour and are ok with that afaik.. it's their game, players are expected to abide by their rules