An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[DefiledDragon]

Actually, I've never logged (solo or open) so keep that in mind. I'm not cheating, but frankly I may bring myself to that level if I feel it provides enough salt against griefers. I'm not talking about pvpers as a whole. I've been in plenty of pvp in this game and enjoy(ed it until engineers stuffed it all up and then some) it. Also, don't say things like "shoulder the responsibility" and other bravado. It's embarrassing. This is a game. open is awesome 99% of the time for many, many reasons. SDC and other ganking groups are not a part of that reason. Essentially, when someone logs on them, they are saying, "sorry mate, you don't know how to play with others and I won't play with you, but you won't push bully me out of the playground either".

You'll be pushed to cheating because ...? The guy in the other ship is better than you? You can't evade an interdiction? You don't know how to high wake? What you're saying is no different to saying "I'll wallhack in counterstrike because I don't know how to use my ears or move silently and everybody else is much better than I am". It's disgusting, it really is.

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Well, some elements could be said to be a disgrace, I feel it's a bit unfair to call everyone here that. You can say the same about all gaming communities. I happen to know a large number of players in this game that are genuinely fantastic people and don't fall to baiting and making sweeping statements. So no, I think your statement about the community being a disgrace is untrue, uncharitable and likely born out of frustration.

Fair point and I really should have said certain elements of this community are a disgrace. It's borne less out of frustration and more out of sheer disbelief. I've been gaming online for a long time, since BT powerplay and all that and I have never witnessed such a brazen lack of gamesmanship anywhere. In other communities players are banned for cheating, no question. In the ED community you can freely admit to doing so on their official forums without having to concern yourself with any possible repercussions. It beggars belief.

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Will you start campaigning for Valve to start issuing VAC bans to people who disconnect during games?

Valve's multiplayer games are client server based affairs and don't suffer the same issues as ED.

 

[Gunnet]

You'll be pushed to cheating because ...? The guy in the other ship is better than you? You can't evade an interdiction? You don't know how to high wake? What you're saying is no different to saying "I'll wallhack in counterstrike because I don't know how to use my ears or move silently and everybody else is much better than I am". It's disgusting, it really is.

A more accurate CS analogy would be "I'll d/c because this is nova and the other team are five global smurfs".

But to make it completely accurate, the novas would have to be restricted to full eco on every round while the globals got to full buy no matter what.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Your right opinion counts for nothing yours carries exactly the same weight as mine, in the context of this thread some people are of the opinion that disconnects are combat logging. Those people are wrong, they'll always be wrong. Nobody cares beyond a few whinging gankers trying to inflate one issue above more serious ones to further their own extremely transparent agenda.

You would be correct, if you weren't completely incorrect. Combat logging is considered an exploit by Frontier Developments. That's not my opinion, that's fact.

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Killing clean commanders with no consequence is a disgrace to gaming.

No, that's just a part of the game, as advertised by FD themselves.

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Do you drive over the speed limit in real life? Sometimes I do. It's a violation of law. And I do it. Sometimes rules are silly and need to be ignored.

I dare you to argue the toss the next time you get caught doing it.

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Frontier have done a great job in getting so many of you so invested in what is basically a childs video game, get some perspective. Go kiss your wife talk to your children. Sorry to be so abrupt but some of the emotional input into this thread is borderline obsessive and reinforces my own decision to only play in solo, if this thread is a sample of the personallities that stalk open. no thanks.

How many hours have you put into ED? Is it tens? Hundreds? Thousands? If you're not passionate about something, why do it to such excess? Why do people spend thousands on hardware to get the best experience if they're not passionate about it?

I'd wager that most people on this forum have been playing video games for many years, do you think we've not heard all the "games are for kids" nonsense before?

 

[DefiledDragon]

A more accurate CS analogy would be "I'll d/c because this is nova and the other team are five global smurfs".

But to make it completely accurate, the novas would have to be restricted to full eco on every round while the globals got to full buy no matter what.

Nobody's restricting anybody to anything though, besides, I've five manned on Eco rounds so it's certainly no death sentence. In ED every commander is free to fit their ship to the best spec they can afford. If people choose to fit woefully underpowered defensive systems to their trade ships in an effort to haul as much cargo as possible then they can't expect to last very long in the event of shenanigans.

 

[Stigbob]

Salty Dogmaa Oysters

Naah - seriously though - it would be an interesting community goal. SDC would have a live measure of their support in the playing community, and an opportunity to git gud

Genuinely sounds like fun, I'm sure their propaganda guy will be along in a bit to explain how they don't do BGS <sobs> because it's rubbish <sniffle> and has nothing to do with getting the snot beaten out of them <waah> by carebears.

Utilizing my terrible internet connection as electronic warfare I could get Mrs Stigbob to stream Monty Don's gardening and dog program in HD whilst I was playing and cause dreadful rubber-banding and disconnects wherever I went. This would distract SDC as they would all feel morally obliged to submit loads of support tickets to FD's ignore folder because of their concern for fair game-play and all round good sportsmanship for the good of the game and it's community, or something.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Weaponised 56k modems - whatever next?

 

[frostypaw]

SDC's faction combat logged all by itself.

This is just comical coming from someone who claims to be well experienced in the world.

A: I DO NOT CARE if you are having fun, this is about my fun and it's being ruined by people combat logging when they don't want to play with me so you should care because I'm great.
B: You seriously expect us to care about your fun when you don't give a hoot about our fun?
A: Er ah Principles though! Look rules!
B: You mean like the ones saying don't be an antisocial jerk?
A: Yes no er but HONOUR!
B: From people who admit to killing anyone indiscriminately?
A: They're just there for my entertainment to kill

etc

Cat isn't gonna get the mouse to vote for less holes in the skirting unless he's willing to give up some claws too

 

[Gunnet]

Nobody's restricting anybody to anything though, besides, I've five manned on Eco rounds so it's certainly no death sentence. In ED every commander is free to fit their ship to the best spec they can afford. If people choose to fit woefully underpowered defensive systems to their trade ships in an effort to haul as much cargo as possible then they can't expect to last very long in the event of shenanigans.

That's where the analogy breaks down and becomes inapplicable. In CS there is nothing other than PvP combat, and therefore no reason to buy with another goal in mind. In Elite the majority of content is built around not doing that.

As for the eco ace, so have I. Get back to me when there exists any circumstance where you can kill a combat fitted FDL/Cutter/Corvette with a few well-aimed shots from a C1 pulse laser.

 

[JerryLove]

If you combat log, to all intents and purposes your ship is invincible. If you were running actual invincibility hacks, wouldn't you consider it hacking? Because that's what you're doing if you combat log.

If you spend a lot of hours doing trades and bounty hunting you'll make credits. If you were running actual credit hacks, wouldn't you consider it hacking? Because that's what you are doing if you do trades and bounty hunting.

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Yes, but we're not talking about the dumbfire/point defence exploit in stations, we're talking about people who have been interdicted by other players cheating to avoid destruction. You can't foist the blame for that onto FD, they gave us solo mode and private groups, but people still insist on cheating in open when there are two alternatives available, one of which negates the possibility of destruction by another player entirely and the other one by 99.99%, 100% if the only people in your private group are people you know personally who are PvE centric players.

So you are absolutely AOK that players have 100% methods to avoid dying when interdicted.

But if, heaven forbid, they use the wrong one of those methods: they should have their game taken away because... um... you don't like it?

 

[DarkWalker]

I used to gank people all the time in Eve, yet I've never cheated in any online game in my life and never would, nor would I yank my cable out even if I were about to lose my brand new Anaconda and didn't have the rebuy. Don't tar people who enjoy PvP with the same brush as a hacker/cheater/exploiter because the mentality couldn't be more different.

It's where we are very different in mentality. I don't care about cheating per see.

What I care, instead, is about griefing other players. Thus, I will condemn cheating when it's used to grief others, but at the same time I will commend cheating when it's used to escape griefing or turn the tables on the griefer.

(when neither used to grief nor to hinder griefing I don't quite care about others cheating.)

This is precisely why I'm all for combat logging when used to deny a griefer of a fight or kill. And do keep in mind that my personal definition of griefer is very expansive when PvP is involved.

Valve's multiplayer games are client server based affairs and don't suffer the same issues as ED.

Actually, most of them — of both Valve's own games, and VAC-using games — are either peer to peer or have the players themselves hosting (some of) the servers.

But yeah, they don't suffer the same issues as ED. Not because of any potential way to keep players in the game or punish them for leaving, but because most games with VAC are designed in such a way that a loss doesn't matter in the least, as there is no setback from losing, and often there are even rewards for taking part in a match even if the player loses. Combat logging is mostly eliminated, then, not because of technical features, but because players simply have no reason to combat log.

It's both why I say ED's death penalty hinders Frontier's ability to "fix" combat logging, and why I say that any solution needs to tackle how fun and enjoyable losing a PvP fight is. Until players actually enjoy a PvP encounter even if they lose it, combat logging will be impossible to tackle.

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Weaponised 56k modems - whatever next?

Taking a high-rez screenshot to a floppy disk. Last I heard, it caused the player to be disconnected (for the same reason the game only allows ultra resolution screenshots while playing Solo).

 

[Shar]

You would be correct, if you weren't completely incorrect. Combat logging is considered an exploit by Frontier Developments. That's not my opinion, that's fact.

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No, that's just a part of the game, as advertised by FD themselves.

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I dare you to argue the toss the next time you get caught doing it.

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How many hours have you put into ED? Is it tens? Hundreds? Thousands? If you're not passionate about something, why do it to such excess? Why do people spend thousands on hardware to get the best experience if they're not passionate about it?

I'd wager that most people on this forum have been playing video games for many years, do you think we've not heard all the "games are for kids" nonsense before?

Weak defence from one of the worst offenders. Missery loves company and you have plenty here. and no i do not get "passionate" about a game interested maybe enjoy are words i might use but passion give me a break, good indercation of perspective lost.

passionate
ˈpaʃ(ə)nət/
adjective
adjective: passionate

having, showing, or caused by strong feelings or beliefs.
"passionate pleas for help"
synonyms: intense, impassioned, ardent, fervent, zealous, vehement, fiery, heated, feverish, emotional, heartfelt, eager, excited, animated, spirited, vigorous, strong, energetic, messianic, fanatical, frenzied, wild, fierce, consuming, violent, tumultuous, flaming, raging, burning, uncontrollable, ungovernable; rareperfervid, fervid, passional
"a passionate entreaty"
very keen on, very enthusiastic about, addicted to, devoted to, infatuated with;
informalmad about, crazy about, hooked on, nuts about, nutty about, gone on;
informalnutso over;
informalshook on
"McGregor is passionate about sport"
excitable, emotional, intense, fiery, volatile, mercurial, quick-tempered, hot-headed, highly strung, hot-blooded, impulsive, temperamental, tempestuous, dramatic, melodramatic
"Christina was passionate and given to terrible tantrums"

The above is not how any computer game should be viewed. Now i'm not arguing some are not behaiving as the above describes but i do question how ones life would allow such a focus to evolve, just seems sad to me.

 

[the100thmonkey]

So you are absolutely AOK that players have 100% methods to avoid dying when interdicted.

But if, heaven forbid, they use the wrong one of those methods: they should have their game taken away because... um... you don't like it?

I'd suggest that now we have engineered super-ships capable of throwing hundreds of megajoules of energy downrange in less than 15 seconds, it's not necessarily true that players can avoid dying when interdicted, particularly now that we have an FSD scrambling module.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Taking a high-rez screenshot to a floppy disk. Last I heard, it caused the player to be disconnected (for the same reason the game only allows ultra resolution screenshots while playing Solo).

Yeah - that was a delicious bit of fun. I'm just upset I didn't come up with the idea saving to a network share over a 75bps serial link first

 

[Shar]

Weak defence from one of the worst offenders. Missery loves company and you have plenty here. and no i do not get "passionate" about a game interested maybe enjoy are words i might use but passion give me a break, good indercation of perspective lost.

passionate
ˈpaʃ(ə)nət/
adjective
adjective: passionate

having, showing, or caused by strong feelings or beliefs.
"passionate pleas for help"
synonyms: intense, impassioned, ardent, fervent, zealous, vehement, fiery, heated, feverish, emotional, heartfelt, eager, excited, animated, spirited, vigorous, strong, energetic, messianic, fanatical, frenzied, wild, fierce, consuming, violent, tumultuous, flaming, raging, burning, uncontrollable, ungovernable; rareperfervid, fervid, passional
"a passionate entreaty"
very keen on, very enthusiastic about, addicted to, devoted to, infatuated with;
informalmad about, crazy about, hooked on, nuts about, nutty about, gone on;
informalnutso over;
informalshook on
"McGregor is passionate about sport"
excitable, emotional, intense, fiery, volatile, mercurial, quick-tempered, hot-headed, highly strung, hot-blooded, impulsive, temperamental, tempestuous, dramatic, melodramatic
"Christina was passionate and given to terrible tantrums"

The above is not how any computer game should be viewed. Now i'm not arguing some are not behaiving as the above describes but i do question how ones life would allow such a focus to evolve, just seems sad to me.

Bieng "Passionate about something so out of ones control is a very unhealthy undertaking and as so many posts in this thread indicate, does not end well. just preposing that if some of you were a bit less "Passionate" about a game you may be a little happier.

 

[JerryLove]

I'd suggest that now we have engineered super-ships capable of throwing hundreds of megajoules of energy downrange in less than 15 seconds, it's not necessarily true that players can avoid dying when interdicted, particularly now that we have an FSD scrambling module.

It was part of his premise. Combat logging could not be excused as necessary because there were other reliable methods.

It's essentially defensible as a position because if it's true, it also under-cuts the argument against CLing as arbitrary.

 

[Artemis Zodiac]

I think these noob killers that have souped up engineer mods go in knowing it's a smash job..the feeling of God like power isn't it...I know how it feels.

But not how these guys use it..

Imagine some group of hackers deciding to make aim for you 24/7...one shooting you all like noobs and not able to dent the opposition.

Not caring about being recorded or reported...multiple accounts.

This is the possible danger that could come to the path of the clan of dogs.

That would be considered real cheating in my book....

Still you can winge about proper cheating then...not all this in game baby stuff.

Multiplayer...ruined gaming...just like the earth is screwed coz of people.

Night all.

 

[Ozram]

You'll be pushed to cheating because ...? The guy in the other ship is better than you? You can't evade an interdiction? You don't know how to high wake? What you're saying is no different to saying "I'll wallhack in counterstrike because I don't know how to use my ears or move silently and everybody else is much better than I am". It's disgusting, it really is.

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Fair point and I really should have said certain elements of this community are a disgrace. It's borne less out of frustration and more out of sheer disbelief. I've been gaming online for a long time, since BT powerplay and all that and I have never witnessed such a brazen lack of gamesmanship anywhere. In other communities players are banned for cheating, no question. In the ED community you can freely admit to doing so on their official forums without having to concern yourself with any possible repercussions. It beggars belief.

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Valve's multiplayer games are client server based affairs and don't suffer the same issues as ED.

None of the above . I've already stated the reason I'd consider going the equivalent of jaywalking in ED and it has nothing to do with any of the scenarios you've stated, hilariously all of which involve a "fair is fair" encounter. It actually was one of my favourite things to do until engineering took hold. None of what you described is ganking. With the incoming changes fd is implementing, escape will be very difficult (even more than it already is). Yet consequences for ganking remain non existent. I've put forward a few ideas of what Ai think would make it fairer, but the point is SOMETHING ought to be done and so far official response is anemic. I'd like to see you take on a wing of heavily engineered gankers. Not gonna happen no matter your loadout.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

SDC pointing out that FDEV have done a terrible job at policing their own game & rules is not the fault of SDC.

Cheating, in any form, ruins games .. period.

Acting like a [expletive] in game also ruins it for others but isn't the focus of this thread.

 

[Ozram]

SDC pointing out that FDEV have done a terrible job at policing their own game & rules is not the fault of SDC.

Cheating, in any form, ruins games .. period.

Acting like a [expletive] in game also ruins it for others but isn't the focus of this thread.

This thread lost focus some time ago, likely as it began with a duciplitous OP. It's so clearly not about what it states itself to be about, it's funny. Prime example of ulterior motives.

 

[JerryLove]

Cheating, in any form, ruins games .. period.

Hyperbolic much?

So since 100% of games have had some cheating: 100% are ruined? Neat.