To Fly in Open or Not - Is Ganking/Griefing Really That Bad?

[Exigeous]

The justification of an action that is decried by many players will not gain traction.

Using the EULA, CL, emergent game play, excitement, player rights, etc. to uphold the dubious banner of ganking/griefing has become a worn-out argument.

A gank/grief lasts seconds in many cases, it's not players consensually meeting in the tilting field, running their coursers and engaging in knightly battle. It is an ambush, usually by superior numbers on lesser opponents, with one-sided enjoyment.

Yes, you are right, it is a vid and shouldn't be confused w/ RL. But to many w/ a short time to play, to see their hours of effort wiped out in literally seconds, your justifications are hollow and meaningless, it does affect RL.

These arguments aren't going to be resolved, strong feelings abound. But the gank/grief supporters/players are in the minority and likely to remain there.

So for whatever reason you seem to just be determined to disagree with me and put words in my mouth no matter how clear I am. I'm going to try one last time to get through to you although somehow I doubt it's possible.

GANKERS SUCK. GETTING GANKED SUCKS. THERE SHOULD BE SOME GAME MECHANIC THAT IMPOSES VERY HARSH PENALTIES ON GANKERS, RUNNING THEM OUT OF A SYSTEM OR MAKING GAME PLAY VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM. I IN NO WAY BLAME, JUDGE, CONDEMN ANYONE FOR PLAYING SOLO OR PRIVATE IF THEY WANT TO BE 100% SURE THEY NEVER ENCOUNTER ONE.

Okay, is that clear enough? Now that I've agreed with your black and white argument let's discuss some of the subtitles, as we all know life isn't black and white. First if you're a player who gets little or very little time to play Elite I would 100% agree you should play solo or private. If I only had a few hours a week to play that's likely what I'd do. While I'd still maintain the odds of encountering a ganker would be rather small with that limited of a time investment it's not worth losing what you did with that little amount of time. My reasons for playing and greatly enjoying open are based on my experiences where I get to play roughly 5-6 hours a day if I choose (yeah, I have no life, do any of us Elite addicts?).

I'm also in no way apologizing for or supporting gankers. It's much like my views on life - I'm a Libertarian and have been my entire life. Philosophically I believe all drugs should be legal, you have ever right to do to your body anything you want. However in practice that doesn't work as someone addicted to meth or crack is going to rob, pillage and kill to get it. They are going to be a negative and blight on society. Much like gankers are. Again they have every right to play how they want so long as Frontier says it's okay, and they say killing other players is valid. That doesn't make it right or good for the game but it is allowed. I'm very glad they have this view as we're not playing a Mario game here, we're playing a 1000 year in the future "life/space simulator". In 1000 years I'm guessing the galaxy won't be too nice of a place. Hell stations are constantly telling you that they're just going to kill you - no sentence for first time offenders, just death.

So let's agree where we agree and disagree where we disagree and not put words into each other's mouths attempting to create places where we disagree. I'm sure you love playing Elite, if you didn't you wouldn't be here discussing this. You're clearly passionate about it which again is great as so am I. It's too bad you don't play in open as I'm also sure you'd be fun to wing up with to do whatever, mine, trade, bounty hunt, etc. Let's also all agree that everyone has a right to their opinion and to the way they play Elite. Both extreme's of this argument are completely valid - some want to play in solo just doing trading or other low risk missions so they stay safe. Others want to engage in the most dangerous play possible, bounty hunting in haz res, compromised NAV beacons, PvP piracy and PvP ganking. Some would call the first camp lame care bears. Some would call the latter bags and a-holes. Like everything the truth is in the middle somewhere...

~X

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

No, it's not. I've always played in open. I've very rarely switched modes. Even for "stacking" purposes. I can't be bugged to login/logoff all day to get some pixels together.

I've been "ganked" maybe under five times in probably hundreds of hours. However it was mostly with some context.

However I'd like to pick when I want to engage in player interaction in ED. I'd like to play cooperatively in the Elite universe. I don't want to be forced by strangers to enter competitive gameplay. I go to other games for that - for me it has simply no place in my concept of how I'd like ED to play out. It's basically the prospect of someone trying to waste my time. I consider the same thing in other games fun and games - in ED I just don't want it.

 

[micky1984]

I have played since beta only in open lost my ship twice to PVP and numerous more time to my own stupidity open is not as bad as these players make out they use these terms to cover many things including their own mistakes so not to look silly or garbage ! im tripple elite so ive traded in open explored and combat all in open pvp lost 2 times and neither was this griefing thing because i cant place that term in the context of this game where your free to do anything you want including yes killing for fun

 

[Cupcake]

Short answer: NO.

The issue we have is that everyone and his dog who get destroyed in open claim to have been "griefed" when in fact it has nothing to do with griefing but is a valid game mechanic working as intended. People on these boards complain endlessly about griefing, makes me chuckle to see the varied definitions that come up. Working as intended, adapt or die OR play solo.

 

[Sandmann]

This is a game folks, we play it for fun.

Yes we play it for fun. Why would you think ANY ganking is fun for the victim? If a player doesn't wanna pewpew then there is NOTHING positive you can get from open, only negatives.

As for me using my numbers/examples, blah blah blah what else should I use?

You could try listening to what we've told you. You're argument is "but you only get ganked a little bit, see here are some numbers to prove it" but you ignore us saying "we don't want to get ganked AT ALL".

Maybe you guys should also go back and read the subject of my post - I asked a question. I didn't say one was right/better and one wrong/worse. Hell in my first post I asked to hear from solo players as I'm curious about their experiences. As for the numbers I posted being irrelevant I'm sorry simple facts are hard for you. Many have said the risks of open have been grossly exaggerated, in my experiences I absolutely agree. While discussing this with friends someone asked "I wonder how much game time I've spent being ganked?" I was curious so I did some simply math around my experiences. Again *MY* experiences not yours/everyone. If the simple facts around my experience bother you then I ask you to post your own. How many hours have you played, how many times have you been ganked and how many credits have you lost? I'm genuinely curious, again that's why I started this thread.

I told you the numbers were irrelevant because they ARE irrelevant TO WHY WE DON'T ENJOY OPEN, which as I recall WAS your question. The numbers may be dead accurate BUT THEY DON'T MATTER. You accidentally hit the nail on the head when you said "This is a game folks, we play it for fun"... well open IS NOT FUN for us. We do not like your open plan, we do not like it, Sam-I-am.

Make open fun for people who don't want to be ganked and don't seek PvP and maybe we'll come back.

If you REALLY want to understand why we don't play in open try asking yourself "What is there in open that these people want badly enough to put up with being ganked and griefed?". If the answer you come up with is "nothing" then you've answered your own question. Why WOULD we go there when it's got nothing we want that we can't get elsewhere, and stuff that we don't want that we don't have to put up with elsewhere?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Short answer: NO.

The issue we have is that everyone and his dog who get destroyed in open claim to have been "griefed" when in fact it has nothing to do with griefing but is a valid game mechanic working as intended. People on these boards complain endlessly about griefing, makes me chuckle to see the varied definitions that come up. Working as intended, adapt or die OR play solo.

Sorry, but are you really saying there has never been an instance of griefing in the game? :O

 

[Sandmann]

Sorry, but are you really saying there has never been an instance of griefing in the game? :O

Oh AA, there's no such thing as griefing, surely you know that? Just ask any member of the code or sdc.

 

[micky1984]

Sorry, but are you really saying there has never been an instance of griefing in the game? :O

in a game where you can do what ever you want No because you can do whatever you want there are players cheating or using exploites but nether of these are griefing either and you will find these players using this term for anything ANYTHING that they dont like or upsets them

 

[Sandmann]

Oh AA, there's no such thing as griefing, surely you know that? Just ask any member of the code or sdc.

in a game where you can do what ever you want No because you can do whatever you want there are players cheating or using exploites but nether of these are griefing either and you will find these players using this term for anything ANYTHING that they dont like or upsets them

See?

 

[V'larr]

About the OP's analysis: you didn't seem to take into account the time lost by assets lost to rebuy & earning said assets back again. I imagine that would be much more significant.

__

Seems to me like there's people who are fine with losing sometimes, because "whatever, man". I am not one of these people - if I lose, I will sit and think about why, and if there is no means for me to see why, find out why, or there is no better reason than "RNG" or "balance? forget that!", then I will very quickly get fed up and frustrated. (Certain MMO competitive games have taught me the hard way about this.)

So for me, it's not even about the question of "how often" does it happen - it's simply "can it happen at all, ever?". Perhaps it is purely psychological, but as I've found both here and on other MMO games where PvE content is available, PvE without the PvP element is far, far, far more preferable and rewarding for me.

Ultimately this just means I can't answer the question in the title of this thread, but thought I'd share my thoughts.

 

[Psypher]

Look at this point of view, you're an explorer, with real life, work, family, kids, etc. so, you have a limited time to play, like a few hours per week.

As an explorer you venture yourself in to the void, passing, days, weeks or months colecting data.

But, you can lose all that in a few seconds if you're without luck. The chances for this to hapend can be the lowest as it is now, but they're high enough to justifie my absence in open, because when we pay for insurance we are loosing just a little portion of our time invested, but as an explorer, if you're destroied, you will lose all the time that you invested since you departed.

 

[Spacemarkl]

I took part in the last community goal. I made five deliveries. Nobody stopped and shot me. Of course I used some evasive techniques, not flying staright to the station. And yes, I was in open the whole time.

 

[Sylow]

Perhaps it's a thing of perception and personal experience. Of course i again read the usual suspects here saying that ganking does not happen, never did and never will, and you have to deal with it and are a carebare if it troubles you. I very much by now am convinced that these are those people who are not into actual PvP but are looking for victims to help their egos. Alas, not my problem.
.
My personal experience with open is very different than many people here paint it to be. During the beta and for a while afterwards, i flew in open. During the beta i never experienced any troubles, but things changed afterwards. I first was flying around in a cargo ship. I wouldn't have minded any player pirates, but i never met any. All i met were people in combat ships, who immediately proceeded to destroy my ship after the interdiction. No word spoken, no cargo demanded (probably those "pirates" flew without cargo hold) no intereaction outside of shooting at a cargo vessel.
.
Needless to say that a cargo vessel is not that huge an asset against a combat fitted ship. But while player-piracy would've been fun, brainded "interdict and destroy" is not. The second part of my experiment was to fly around in a Viper and later in a Vulture. I never was interdicted in those ships. That told me that all the "i am a tough guy, looking for a fight" people actually were not looking for a challenge. All they wanted was soft targets, anything able to fight back they ran from.
.
The next observation: player interaction also was very low. When i saw another player, the reaction was predictable, according to this checklist:
- Both in a cargo ship: small chat, but the other one still avoided me. (I suspect they were afraid of the risk that i was trying to slow them down while leading some others in combat ship to come here and kill them. )
- Me in a cargo ship, the other one in a combat ship: Either i was ignored or i was interdicted and he (often successfully) tried to destroy my ship.
- Me in a combat ship, the other one in a cargo ship: i was avoided, the other one usually jumped away.
- Both in a combat ship: no interaction. Usually i was avoided.
.
Positive exceptions:
- Interaction around Jameson Memorial, where people sometimes actually spoke to each other.
- Meeting a few people at a barnacle when they were new and most players didn't know about them yet. (At that time i usually already played in Möbius, but due to technical problems we decided to switch mode and met some more people there in open. )
.
The problem is that these positive events were the exception, and i also have to note that both positive aspects can also be experienced in Möbius. Möbius might have less players than open and even those players due to technical limitations are split into three player groups. But due to how instancing works, you usually encounter the same number of other players as in Open, so purely on the number of players in your instance, the in-game experience is very similar. The advantage lies in the better, more friendly atmosphere and attitude.
.
Also note that friendly duelling sometimes does happen in Möbius. If both players agree on it, there's no real problem. I simply start my recording software before the duel starts, to also have it recorded that we agreed on friendly duelling, and there is no issue. Möbius is not about "all PvP forbidden", parts of the Möbius agreement describe accepted PvP. It's all about regulating PvP, which works quite well according to my experience. Nobody of my duelling partners ever complained about me, neither did i about them. And would that ever happen i would have the recordings to show that we agreed upon it before i got my rear end kicked, so i don't see my Möbius membership endangered.
.
So after all this, i just have to conclude that i find not a single selling point for Open. Everything which i consider fun is also available in Möbius, while filtering out the negatives. I could feel some pitty for those who can't handle actual PvP but need weak targets to use their tuned and engineered PvP ships upon, but actually i do not.
.
PS: And yes, sometimes i also switch to Solo. But in my case that's not a "leave me alone" move, but usually happens during weekend primetimes, when my connection is not that great. (According to traceroute the problem usually stems from some servers of an ISP in France, which sits on my connetion route to England and seems to struggle on busy weekends. )
.

 

[Derath]

OP, it depends if your willing to change your play characteristics to accommodate players. You can't really get interdicted if you keep your eyes open and know how to read the radar. It does take substantially longer to do anything though if you fly with those criteria in mind and while that really doesn't matter when your playing by yourself if your involved in a community goal you generally should stay in solo if you have any intent to get somewhere on the leaderboard of contributors.

 

[Sandmann]

I took part in the last community goal. I made five deliveries. Nobody stopped and shot me. Of course I used some evasive techniques, not flying staright to the station. And yes, I was in open the whole time.

Out of interest, what were you flying?

 

[DarthBlingBling]

Do you still play Derath? I remember your legend in the early days.

Unless I'm flying about with a big 'kick me' sticker, I've yet to be ganked. Majority of players are pretty civil in this game.

 

[Cosmos]

I've around 1500 hours or so, been killed by 'griefers' two or three times, total damage not even remotely a fraction of what I have. Its a non issue, perpetuated by disgruntled people who dont play Open anyway.

I think you've hit the nail on the head

400 billion star systems and apparently we can't move for these 'griefers'..[wacko]

 

[Derath]

Do you still play Derath? I remember your legend in the early days.

Unless I'm flying about with a big 'kick me' sticker, I've yet to be ganked. Majority of players are pretty civil in this game.

I play very rarely when i've got some spare time, usually when they've tweaked some engineer mods on my favourite weps. I'll probably come back and play for a week for example when the plasma changes go live that i read in a sticky at the top (if they aren't live already), I get good enjoyment out of advanced accelerators and the idea of fueling them off ship fuel appeals to me as a build and builds are the only thing left that excites me here .

Combat logging did me in really, i mean the general turtle pace of what seemed like obvious balance changes as well but mostly that the unpredictable content i enjoyed (piracy) became increasingly crippled not just by combat logging but the general transition towards giant SCB choked bulwark ships and wings. I wouldn't last more than a couple of days with a bounty like that now and it isn't just because i'm much more scrubby than i was.

I still miss T6's ramming me while dumping biowaste everywhere though, some players were truly epic.

 

[Sylow]

One more thing to all the open players here: whenever the topic comes up, there is a list of advice on how to avoid other players. Can somebody please explain to me what's the point of choosing a game mode which includes other players, then having the highest goal of avoiding them? This seems quite contradictory to me and very much advertises the Solo mode... for me the fun in multiplayer comes from interacting with other players, not in working hard to avoid them.
.

 

[Spacemarkl]

Out of interest, what were you flying?

A Cobra MkIV...