PVP Combat Logging - Vindicator Jones Video

vindicator jones

vindicator jones
CptSiddy said:
I want to make a correction to your otherwise grate video.

There is no such a thing as combat logging in a single player game with online DRM.
Elite is single player game with online DRM component slapped on to it, that is masked as "open play". (And lets not kid ourself, if elite didint have this online DRM component in it, modders would have made this game grate again, just like X3 and X-)

Ergo, you cannot combat log in Elite. And if i log off at any point of the game, be it in middle of a fight or flying home back to station, i do not need to explain myself TO ANYONE.
If dogs need a walk , i will "combat log" and walk a dog. And i owe zero, nada, zilch, diddly squat explanation to anyone... least of you, to why i decided to close my SINGLE PLAYER GAME and go do something else.

Period.
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I dunno about that... the EULA is quite specific about combat logging.
 

scorpyon

scorpyon
Apologies, I'm writing this as I listen to your video. (I know you said listen to the end, but I don't want to forget my train of thought here)
One little thing stood out to me as I listen.

You mention that you never combat log.... except for that one time where you combat logged because your joystick cable fell out.
Is hardware malfunction a justifiable reason? Does this then include network hubs for example?
You also go on to back up the logging by justifying it against the "5 million credits" you would have lost.
So does this mean that losing a substantial (subjectively) amount of credits is an acceptable reason to combat log?
But then you continue to say that "combat logging is a big no-no..." even though you have provided two subjective arguments for which it could be justified.

Forgive me for saying this, but your story does appear to imply at least a small degree of hypocrisy here.
(Please understand, I'm not criticising you directly for this, but merely pointing out the inconsistency in the argument you put forward).

If you believe that all combat logging is wrong, then you cannot take that standpoint on the back of admitting that you have partaken in the action (whether it's "just that one time, when I really needed to!" or it's "every time a ship flies within shooting range of me!").
In the same way, if you believe that there is nothing wrong with combat logging then you can't complain if others employ it as they see fit. (in whichever situation arises)

One might also argue that there is perhaps a "middle ground" for when combat logging is acceptable (be it through network loss, or wife went into labour, or any number of "reasonable" justifications). The problem there, however, lies in the fact that any justification is entirely subjective to the justifier and not everyone else.
And this is (in part) why this problem will never be resolved and why it needs to be forgotten for good.

I've lost count of the number of viable options there are for implementing a "force-you-to-stay" in the game but it would appear that Frontier is less interested in these than they would have you believe (I mean, it's been a number of years now!).
So perhaps it's time to shrug our shoulders, except that what is, is, and move onto a different contentious argument?
 

CptSiddy

C
vindicator jones said:
I dunno about that... the EULA is quite specific about combat logging.
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You do know that you can wipe your behind with the EULA.

FD cannot prove the loss of connection was intentional, and thus has no grounds for banning.

We had this discussion in EVE-online, and the response was same: The lawyers would rip CCP a new one if they banned someone who had too much time and money and decided to go after CCP. So CCP made a in game system that punished the combat logging and left it at that.

If the matter goes to court, FD will 100% lose it. At best, you get your account back, at worst, the FD will be considered criminal entity in the country of origin, and its operations would be limited by the consumer protection agency.

https://www.frontierstore.net/ed-eula/

Also, it says nothing about combat logging in eula, nothing.
 
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CMDR GTR2014

CMDR GTR2014
vindicator jones said:
Obsidian Ant beat me to it, but here it is guys.


My take on Combat Logging.


Please note, some very mild course language and strong opinions.

Please watch the whole video before commenting and please try and respect each others opinions.
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As a pirate , if someone combat-logs i just lose cargo ,time and ammunition... So its not a win mister VJ , out of that i think you are mostly right....
 

Mangal Oemie

Mangal Oemie
Hardware failure combat log: come on, surely this is acceptable. I "combat logged" NPCs once or twice because my Rift headset was lost by Oculus, so I saw NOTHING, and had to find the menu screen to kill it on the normal screen (trying to aim the headset right), couldn't get the menu up, and ended up killing by task manager.

Also, the CZ screen freeze is now replaced by random disconnects, which of course to any opponent would look like combat log (unless they themselves get dropped at the same time)
 

glojo

G
I lack a decent type of education as I left school at the age of fifteen, well fifteen and a half but if we are a professional film maker or video producer, is it course language, or coarse language?

I was trying to view the video footage rather than ask that question but sadly I failed miserably :( I do not subscribe to Twitter so cannot see what that link contains.

Apologies for perhaps being slightly pedantic but is it better to have some pedantic gallah point out these things rather than showing it to a prospective customer that is expecting a top quality production?
 

[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
nice balanced vid

it is gravely telling that your experience of CLers was worse with a so called "PvP group" than it was with traders you were pirating.

the stench of hypocrisy is in the air :D
 

Highhead

H
glojo said:
I lack a decent type of education as I left school at the age of fifteen, well fifteen and a half but if we are a professional film maker or video producer, is it course language, or coarse language?

I was trying to view the video footage rather than ask that question but sadly I failed miserably :( I do not subscribe to Twitter so cannot see what that link contains.

Apologies for perhaps being slightly pedantic but is it better to have some pedantic gallah point out these things rather than showing it to a prospective customer that is expecting a top quality production?
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Some typos / grammar mistakes just hurt our eyes, I agree - but let's be fair! It just happens. Even in our company, everytime the HVMarketing guys send out newsletters that have some bad errors, funnily enough, since they send it to customer care to perform a double check, those errors have almost vanished. It's not always about education, as you say correctly. Is VJ a native english speaker at all? If not he does a pretty good job at it, imho (german beeing my native language, not english).
 
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Lupin

Lupin
Interesting video and may good points make. But missing maybe weapon balance, FD are responsible for arms race. ED was NEVER about how big your weapon is.

But I have noticed that there is countdown on logging out now. Which I do not remember before, added 2.2?
Complex yes, quick fix, same as Mech Warrior Online use. Can not log in for X minutes and maybe leave ship in game X minutes. The more your do it the longer the time.
 
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Truesilver

Truesilver
Mangal Oemie said:
Hardware failure combat log: come on, surely this is acceptable. I "combat logged" NPCs once or twice because my Rift headset was lost by Oculus, so I saw NOTHING, and had to find the menu screen to kill it on the normal screen (trying to aim the headset right), couldn't get the menu up, and ended up killing by task manager.
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About NPC's - well, ok, extenuating circumstances maybe.

But in PvP, my hardware is my responsibility.

These problems happen to me sometimes in my Rift. I dread them happening during PvP.

However, if it does happen, I would wait a good 5 minutes before logging to ensure that if my opponent could still see me, they could kill me.

Then I would use Nvidia to shadow record what happened, and get the other Cmdr(s) name(s) if I couldn't remember them.

Then I would friend them up, or try to find them here or on reddit or on inara.cz, and then would message them so as to explain what happened with an apology - even if they had killed me.
 

scorpyon

scorpyon
CptSiddy said:
Please point me to the clause in the ToS that explicitly forbids people from logging off or having a connection issues?

Ill wait.
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https://www.frontierstore.net/ed-eula/?_ga=1.193035817.587976870.1480525830

Here's a link to the EULA.
I agree, CL is not found in this document specifically.

There is, however a case to be made for section 3:

3. Licence Restrictions
You are not permitted:
(a) to load the Game on to a network server for the purposes of distribution to one or more other device(s) on that network or to effect such distribution;
(b) except as expressly permitted by this EULA and to the extent expressly permitted by applicable law, to rent, lease, sub-license, loan, exploit for profit or gain, copy, modify, adapt, merge, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or create derivative works based on the whole or any part of the Game or use, reproduce, distribute, translate, broadcast, publicly perform, store in a retrieval system or otherwise deal in the Game or any part thereof in any way;
(c) use cheats, automation software, hacks, mods, or any other unauthorized software designed to modify or defeat the purpose or experience of the Game;
(d) use any unauthorized software that harvests or otherwise collections information about others or the Game, including about a character or the game environment;
(e) use any robot, spider, scraper, or other automated or manual means to access the Game or any Online Features or copy any content or information from the Game or any Online Features;
(f) probe, scan, test the vulnerability of or breach the authentication measures of the Game or any Online Features;
(g) violate any technology control or export laws and regulations that apply to the technology used or supported by the Game or any Online Features.
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Section (c) would cover any use of 3rd party equipment to force a break in the communication.
But in particular, section (f) expressly forbids "testing the vulnerability of... the authentication measures of the Game" - which would include peer to peer authentication.

Don't get me wrong, I personally think CL is far to over-complained about and isn't such a big deal.
But the challenge was with regards to mention in the ToS. And while not expressly using the coined term "Combat Logging" (which isn't exactly a legal term), the action is technically covered in the EULA
 

SYN_Mars

S
"Be like Vindicator, don't be a Richard"

Apologies for the course coarse language (and to anyone called Richard)

And I am off back to mobius until FD sort out the open sewer or until Naval Action is finally released which has a 'open' pvp mode and community that works far better than here.
 
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