PVP Combat Logging - Vindicator Jones Video

[rrobes]

Great video.

In another thread I recently posted, let griefers/gankers exist, but level the playing field.

Combat logging is a tough one, can FD really differentiate between a deliberate disconnect and a lost connection?

Recently, I have experienced a significant number of random disconnects to the servers, unless there is some sort of a tag, how can you tell this isn't a CL?

Someone with more knowledge needs to answer that one.

To be continued.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

My point of the video was to say dont group ALL combat loggers into the same pile. Not everything is black and white, and dealing with the reasons why some people combat log is more important, to me, than just punishing those that do.

That nicely sums up the PvP situation as well. Not all PvPers are griefers and gankers but they inadvertently get lumped into the same pile by sweeping generalizations. The constant black and white and non compromising generalizations are as much a cancer on this game than some of the other hotly debated topics.

 

[vindicator jones]

That nicely sums up the PvP situation as well. Not all PvPers are griefers and gankers but they inadvertently get lumped into the same pile by sweeping generalizations. The constant black and white and non compromising generalizations are as much a cancer on this game than some of the other hotly debated topics.

Totally.. there are a lot of good PVPers out there, some who even fight to help protect new players. On both sides of the fence it is a small minority that is ruining the game for everyone else. Loggers and Griefers alike.

 

[znôrt]

My take on Combat Logging.

irrelevant offtopic:
as much as i celebrate your talent in visual narrative i quit at about minute 2, so i still don't know what your stance on this is. sorry but i just hate opinion videos. first rule of the storyteller: gtf off the story

irregardless (sic), keep it up!

 

[TaoZero5]

Thanks for the video - I enjoyed it and I agree with what you say.
I won't combat log and I won't get upset when someone else does. It does me no harm. I get a lot more upset when my ship gets blown up.
Player Killers tell me, "It's just pixels" and "Maybe you shouldn't be in the game if it upset's you." These are the same people who mock Combat Loggers (on YouTube) and complain about Frontier not fixing this 'broken game'.

I think that Frontier have deliberately made this game such that what you do need not affect me at all - and vice versa. That is what will prevent the game being ruled by gang-lords. The 'bullies' cannot dictate that I 'play their game or leave'!

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Totally.. there are a lot of good PVPers out there, some who even fight to help protect new players. On both sides of the fence it is a small minority that is ruining the game for everyone else. Loggers and Griefers alike.

That's what I don't think a lot of folks realize. AA's been defending folks for awhile, as has Iridium Wing. I'm sure there are others out there too. PvPers are generally more inclined to look for something that's a challenge because they realize the only way to get better, is to take on challenges. Blasting defenseless traders does nothing for them except waste time and makes them look bad. Too many folks overlook that, which is a pity. The idea of hireable escort wings have been tossed around before, but the reality is that eventually it will be a reality instead of a pipedream.

The same goes for actual pirates. I know a few who make all their money that way (and it's by far the least profitable profession) and rarely ever destroy another player. It's counter-productive and it's also likely to make that guy do something drastic the next time they cross paths. As unpopular as it might sound, these guys really do have a valid point and their opinion (and experience) should be taken seriously.

In the end, it's all about how to make Open a more desirable place to play, rather than a ghost town. One thing Frontier can do is run some more giveaway events that are Open only (which all have been up to this point) to encourage people to to play in Open. That doesn't solve the underlying issues, but it does give a bit more incentive to brave the unknown. A viable C&P system is also a good place to start. It doesn't need to be as draconian as EVE is (though that'd send the griefers packing quickly if it was), but it does need to be firm.

BTW, I'd have to say that was your best video to date. I liked it except for one small little thing. No purple on your uniform. OH EM GEE. FIRED!

 

[mossfoot]

I've played since launch... a lot... and have only ever been ganked once and griefed once. A few other unwanted PvP deaths, but all on the up and up. But overall my player interaction ranges from neutral to positive. Haven't had anyone log on me, but I did have a sidewinder interdict me... then chat while his ship self destructed. That was weird.

Anyway, I agree with your video on how the issue isn't simple and straight forward. I never logged in PvP, but did once in PvE due to unusual circumstances (I dumped the equivalent of my rebuy in credits via cargo to make up for it).

I hope the karma system I've heard they're working on will help. Problem is every time they come up with a good idea (ie speed limit to avoid station ramming) the new meta game becomes finding a way around it.

 

[Ozram]

irrelevant offtopic:
as much as i celebrate your talent in visual narrative i quit at about minute 2, so i still don't know what your stance on this is. sorry but i just hate opinion videos. first rule of the storyteller: gtf off the story

irregardless (sic), keep it up!

Thankfully, not everyone agrees. I rather enjoyed his opinion piece and agreed with much of it.
Also:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless

 

[znôrt]

irregardless (sic)

okay, okay, i finally got back to it and listened to the whole thing. to sum it up: i agree on pretty much all you say. except i don't think c&p relates to cl. different flaws. cl is a design decision (or a consequence of) and frontier's issue. it's not just a matter of controlling bad behavior, or mitigating it, it shapes the game fundamentally. you either have a believable universe or you don't. if you can just disappear in a poof, then any suspension of disbelief goes with it. this rules out a whole branch of possible gameplay. mitigating this with c&p is a far stretch. cl should just not be possible, stuff can't just vanish from your virtual world. this fundamentally defines the game. in my opinion frontier must have very good reason to like it exactly so. i don't, but like how you deal with it, i do pretty much the same.

but the background music, man ... yikes!

 

[znôrt]

Also:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless

yeah, i borrowed that from you. loved it

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

Obsidian Ant beat me to it, but here it is guys.


My take on Combat Logging.


Please note, some very mild course language and strong opinions.

Please watch the whole video before commenting and please try and respect each others opinions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSmR4iCku4

100% agree with your video +1 rep!

 

[Falcon_D]

Obsidian Ant beat me to it, but here it is guys.


My take on Combat Logging.


Please note, some very mild course language and strong opinions.

Please watch the whole video before commenting and please try and respect each others opinions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSmR4iCku4

Nice video.
It's admirable to try and get more players back into Open. And if as you suggest a better C&P system is implemented, it might get some players back from Solo/PG.

However, there seems to be more and more players who are simply not interested in PvP of any kind (and hiring AA or Iridium to protect you from other players, while you are trading, is actually PvP gameplay.) Punishment only works if a crime is first committed. And not everyone wants to be a victim of a PvP crime. Also, not everyone wants to wait around for other players so that they can start playing their game.

As I totally agree that telling players to go to PG or Solo is not such a great idea, have an additional OpenPvE mode. Should help with griefing (harder to grief) and PvP CL'ing (easier to detect and punish, by taking the PvP player griefing the PvE player out of the equation.) The community in ED is already fractured. Open/Group/Solo. The worst being the PvE community (those who would rather co-operate, then compete), which is getting more and more fractured. So, following the theme of the video, I call fracturing the community by implementing OpenPvE, bovine biowaste.

Have fun, fly safe. o7

 

[Necronaught]

Great video. I don't blame unarmed traders for combat logging one bit. It costs the ganker a couple of minutes max. The trader on the other hand might be set back several days in game time. Some of us time is precious and short enough already. I think those gankers should be severley punished. Too many of these open world games claim to be so much more than simple death match, and let's be honest here that's all they are when you strip away the fluff.

 

[avow555]

good comments VJ.

 

[CMDR SilverStar_]

Wow.....well said VJ.

 

[kofeyh]

If the rebuy was removed or made many times smaller would that solve it?
I think it would help loads, and bring more into open...

No. Because CL is always more efficient because it's an instaneous action to opt out of any action regardless of cause. It's always going to be the most effective. Also rebuy is in many cases not the issue (combat pilots CL as well). It's rife because it's able to mitigate all risk. Until frontier close this loophole no amount of C&P changes will work.

Why? You can escape tougher laws by the exact same method. In fact it will only serve to make the situation worse. Laws remain largely uninforcible; apart from stations enacting a kill order due to the substantive damage capability. Even so, you can disconnect/ taskkill and respawn clear of the station and survive a valid action if wanted.

The system will remain busted whilst there is a trivial workaround available. It's really as simple as that. It may be complicated; but CL makes it simple. That door really needs to shut.

 

[lokvette]

interesting video, its a shame the game has got to the point where we need things like this and others. one thing I have always wondered not being too tec savvy, is there a way that FD can tell someone lost connection on purpose or at the moment they left the game it wasn't due to a power cut, the cat on the key board, lose of internet by any other means up to and including an act of god.

In a consensual pvp battle I agree CL is bad form but as pointed out in the vid, if someone logs on you what have you lost really, the thrill of ohhhh got him. you still won, and yes they are still a cheat well more of a lame really, can fully understand if it happens when its is unprovoked pvp on an unsuspecting trader but again that leads down a whole host of threads. Not condoning it but can understand it. But see above how do you prove without a shadow of a doubt that someone combat logged on you.

To add, yes ive seen the vid's about CL, but how do you know they left the game or it wasn't a lose of connection more so how do you prove it.

 

[kofeyh]

interesting video, its a shame the game has got to the point where we need things like this and others. one thing I have always wondered not being too tec savvy, is there a way that FD can tell someone lost connection on purpose or at the moment they left the game it wasn't due to a power cut, the cat on the key board, lose of internet by any other means up to and including an act of god.

In a consensual pvp battle I agree CL is bad form but as pointed out in the vid, if someone logs on you what have you lost really, the thrill of ohhhh got him. you still won, and yes they are still a cheat well more of a lame really, can fully understand if it happens when its is unprovoked pvp on an unsuspecting trader but again that leads down a whole host of threads. Not condoning it but can understand it. But see above how do you prove without a shadow of a doubt that someone combat logged on you.

To add, yes ive seen the vid's about CL, but how do you know they left the game or it wasn't a lose of connection more so how do you prove it.

Very few games make you invulnerable to damage if you are disconnected. In the case of a neutron star or DW collision you are shoved right back where you started so you can't "combat log" a star. So this is very inconsistent.

 

[Sylow]

Speaking as someone who plays as a RP vigilante, not an OOC salt-miner, it is for precisely this reason that I have used a comms macro since (literally) the first day of 1.3 for clean unknowns (ie Powerplay hostiles).

If I know I'm going to be in a particular area for a long time I make it more RP and situational (sometimes even attempting humour, groan...) but otherwise immediately before interdiction I use a generic:

"Enemy Powerplay agent, please throttle down and await Federal execution"

I feel that way we both know where we stand, and why.

I'm delighted to report that as a result, positive communication after the event (even if I've destroyed the target) exceeds negative 10 to 1.

Knowing that there was a reason and that effort was made to convey it seems to go a long way to maintaining a good take on things.

.
I fully support that. I mean, i left Open already before PP came around, but PP in my eyes is a kind of "PvP on" switch. When you sign up for a power, you agree on taking part in what is effectively a kind of warfare and thus opt in to PvP. So anybody who is signed up for PP is a valid target for attack and destruction for any pilot signed up at another PP faction.
.
What you describe is not even necessary in my eyes, but it's good form, as you make sure they know why they are being attacked.
.

 

[Shintai]

Good video!