PVP Combat Logging - Vindicator Jones Video

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

You need the game to manage -move (VJ's language) behaviour, you can't leave it to trust, common sense or do the right thing its naive to think so.

I'm ok with the game having murderous pilots, no problem with that at all but I do expect the game to treat them as murderers and outlaws and I do expect exploits such as combat logging and ram-suicide to be dealt with. FDev just need to get on with sorting it out they have created the framework and platform for all of this to happen only they can make it right.

 

[Icklehobo]

Good video, I agree.

Here is what I wrote on a related thread:


I've quit Shinrarta in the last few days. Moved the entire fleet. I wasn't getting blown up, just sick to the back teeth of tossers trying to blow me up. The same tedious people, every single tedious time. I've got an engineered Cutter and an engineered FdL, which of course they never interdict. But sometimes I'm in a T-9 or a Beluga; guess what happens next? Submit. Yawn. Select high wake destination. Snore. High wake.

Oh and don't believe the utter crap they spout about only targeting combat loggers. I don't log, yet I have to deal with these morons time and time again. In fact, nothing makes combat logging more appealing than that it would severely irritate the sort of pond life that hangs out at Shinrarta.

Honestly, I've defended Open Mode repeatedly here, trying to encourage people to give it a try, but no more. If these tossers want to rule a hollow kingdom, bereft of any diversity, they are welcome to it.


Overheard at the Tchernobog trade CG:

"Care Bears!"

"Lol"

"Anyone using a docking computer is KoS".

I no longer blame anybody for giving Open a wide berth. I'm still there for now, but that may change. If FDev take no steps to improve C&P, I might just give it up.

I am about to hit elite and was gonna make.my base in Jameson. Is this flying idiot thing new or a passing phase, I don't mind a barney but also noticed I don't get pulled up when flying a big boy, but wanted the asp etc there

 

[Muetdhiver]

You need the game to manage -move (VJ's language) behaviour, you can't leave it to trust, common sense or do the right thing its naive to think so.

I'm ok with the game having murderous pilots, no problem with that at all but I do expect the game to treat them as murderers and outlaws and I do expect exploits such as combat logging and ram-suicide to be dealt with. FDev just need to get on with sorting it out they have created the framework and platform for all of this to happen only they can make it right.

Pretty much. Expecting all people not to behave like without external enforcement does not work. Never has, never will.

But things are becoming a tad problematic :

• The issue has been left to fester for more than a year. The "debate" is so polarized that not much productive ideas come out of it anymore.
• For better or worse, competitive/meaingfull PvP and ganking have been bundled together in the minds of a lot of PvE players. That is quite a shame.
• Combat logging has become the mill at which unregulated PvP advocates charge again and again, failling to see that it's a symptom of the problem rather than the problem per se. Quixotic problem solving at its best. And a bit hypocritical seeing how CL is used by some "PvP" groups when it suits them.
• Open depletion problem : open does look a bit depressing these days. When I go to an engineer base in open in a non-combat ship, I have 50% chance of being attacked for no reasons. I see less and less T6's, ASP's and such and everyone seems to be flying Clippers, Cutters, Condas, FLD's and so on... engineered endgame ships or go home. The Lave cluster during the rare runs golden age was nothing like this.
• FD holds all the cards on this one, but time is running out IMO, lest they want open to become a FDL populated wasteland. They will to have to move hard and not listen to the cries, because whatever they choose to do, it will be seen as radical by a group or an other.

A dried out open means : no piracy, no meaningfull PvP BH and less interactions, but that is the endgame we are heading to.

 

[NeilF]

For better or worse, competitive/meaingfull PvP and ganking have been bundled together in the minds of a lot of PvE players. That is quite a shame.

But it's not surprising, because for the majority of players in OPEN, flying around do "game orientated" gameplay, their experience of PvP is typically being randomly interdicted by a player interested in PvP, who then simply opens fire on them. And most likely, they're not interest in PvP (at the time) yet alone outfitted for PvP (at the time), so it's all just unwanted aggravation. - And yes, the fact we have a PvP vs PvE outfitting divide is another serious issue IMHO.

The game by now should be offering interesting mechanics for CMDRs interested in PvP to find it. Strangely, when they then undertake scenarios with other CMDRs interested in PvP, since it's all consensual, it'll no doubt be a far more fulfilling and amicable affair...


So yes, as you point out, until the game actually sorts out piracy, crime & punishment, and finally gives players interested in PvP some sort of interesting orchestrated PvP gameplay, it's going to stay in the current mess it's in. And with more and more players getting frustrated, I suspect they'll just end up taking it out on the game and other CMDRs. ie: More and more mindless destruction and ganking. Which in turn will mean OPEN because less and less popular.

 

[Muetdhiver]

But it's not surprising, because for the majority of players in OPEN, flying around do "game orientated" gameplay, their experience of PvP is typically being randomly interdicted by a player interested in PvP, who then simply open fire on them. And most likely, they're not interest in PvP (at the time) yet alone outfitted for PvP (at the time), so it's all just unwanted aggravation. ...

Right so. Unless you are looking for PvP in a PvP fitted ship for organized PvP, the "PvP" one will experience is getting interdicted/blown up by the typical dude in big box looking for explosion giggles.

Ergo, for PvE players, most PvP players are behaving like seal clubbers, except for a few pirates trying to do real piracy XD. Poor pirates.

 

[crushdepth]

The flaw in your assumption is that surely frontier don't want conflict and that player engagement is accidental and not intended.

I understand the desire to assume only the good in people should rise to the top. I do. But this isn't that game. Frontier want conflict. They want some chaos. They don't really care if a commander is ganked by another. It just isn't really that important as a singular event.

The reason this stuff falls on mostly deaf ears, is because it assumes a misconception. "I can't believe this happens"; it does because frontier allows it to happen. You are simply assuming something that isn't really true.

I don't blame you, really. But frontier want strife and want people to grind and shoot and run and sometimes die. Anything more than that just eats too much of their time. The fact that the team is now spending far more time in open and are actively supporting changes designed to respond to PVP requests shows this isn't going away.

And please don't try to proselytise that conflict is automatically wrong and combat between commanders is not the intent of the developed surely. Because it is. It just is. I am sorry if that offends you. But this is what Frontier want. It is to be a game where combat is possible, at times encouraged and being shot at for no apparent reason is valid play. It may need more laws and rules to ensure a better universe.

But whilst commanders endlessly refuse to accept an aspect of the game exists, it can't be improved. Because frontier won't care and aren't listening. Please. I know you want to counter and say "but this.." or "surely that.." but I am trying to tell you that it's wasted effort.

You can agree to disagree. But people are still so locked in PVE vs PVP that they can't see the bigger picture as to how distructive that is in general. Sometimes you have to cut through the bullcrap to see the truth of things.

Frankly that mentality, of head in the sand is why CL'ing is rife. Because it's a refusal to accept the terms of the game. This impacts crime and punishment in a big way because right now stiffer penalties are unenforcable whilst CL is a valid escape.

Ironically nothing changes, because commanders refuse to accept the consequences of that change. CL has to die so law and order can exist. I really can't speak more plainly than that.

Speaking of head in the sand, you appear to have missed the bit about PVP being optional. Thanks to solo and groups, players can choose not to participate.

If you want a more vibrant open then you and other PVP heads need to adopt a more reasonable stance. Combat logging is frequently a symptom of an underlying disease (eg abusive or rude behaviour).

You also need to realise that driving PVE-oriented players away from PVP encounters is far more of a problem for PVP than PVE, because a lot of us don't really care if you exist. And we have a very nice option to make sure that you don't.

 

[NeilF]

Right so. Unless you are looking for PvP in a PvP fitted ship for organized PvP, the "PvP" one will experience is getting interdicted/blown up by the typical dude in big box looking for explosion giggles.

Ergo, for PvE players, most PvP players are behaving like seal clubbers, except for a few pirates trying to do real piracy XD. Poor pirates.

And it's not even as black and white as that.


For example, I'd suggest many players are not "PvP players" or "PvE players". Sometimes they'll be doing PvE specific gameplay and maybe other times they might be interested in PvP. ie: If I'm doing some gameplay such as running a few missions, I'll probably be in a Asp or Python aimed at PvE. And yes, because the game isn't balanced well, we have this PvE and PvP disparity.

But now introduce another CMDR who wants some PvP, and his only option (bizarely) is basically to interdict other CMDRs in the hope of an interesting outcome? So when he interdicts me, strangely I'm not interested (at that time as I'm just not kitted out for it and maybe have cargo on board I don't want to lose, or exploration/bounties I don't want to lose) and see the whole affair as aggravation.

Of course if he was interdicting me to pirate any cargo I have, fair enough, but given the poor mechanics behind piracy this is few and far between, and almost certainly any interdiction these days is falling into the mindless destruction type instead...



The fact that PvP is basically regularly just someone looking for PvP interdicting another player not interested (or kitted out) for PvP, and then mindlessly attacking and destroying them is rediculous IMHO. It's a big fat arrow pointing to a number of glaring issues in the game from crime and punishment, to piracy, to the fact the game doesn't orchestrate any meaningful PvP.

 

[Muetdhiver]

And it's not even as black and white as that.

I agree. Yet, if I were to do only PvE stuff in open, the only PvPers I would meet would be gankers (90%+) and pirates (10%-).
There are many respectable PvP outfits out there, having met some fine players. And it's really good fun. It really brings good stuff to the table.

The problem is that the game really does not support that type of PvP, and instead invectize the ganking type of PvP : attacker is at low risk, low cost for the attacker,
no consequences, and no problem to organize (pick anyone looking weak)

The fact that PvP is basically regularly just someone looking for PvP interdicting another player not interested (or kitted out) for PvP, and then mindlessly attacking and destroying them is rediculous IMHO. It's a big fat arrow pointing to a number of glaring issues in the game from crime and punishment, to piracy, to the fact the game doesn't orchestrate any meaningful PvP.

You laid it down in a better way that I ever could.

 

[Ozram]

The fact that PvP is basically regularly just someone looking for PvP interdicting another player not interested (or kitted out) for PvP, and then mindlessly attacking and destroying them is rediculous IMHO. It's a big fat arrow pointing to a number of glaring issues in the game from crime and punishment, to piracy, to the fact the game doesn't orchestrate any meaningful PvP.

That really drives to the core of it. I'd rep but apparently the love is in need of sharing

 

[crushdepth]

And it's not even as black and white as that.


For example, I'd suggest many players are not "PvP players" or "PvE players". Sometimes they'll be doing PvE specific gameplay and maybe other times they might be interested in PvP. ie: If I'm doing some gameplay such as running a few missions, I'll probably be in a Asp or Python aimed at PvE. And yes, because the game isn't balanced well, we have this PvE and PvP disparity.

But now introduce another CMDR who wants some PvP, and his only option (bizarely) is basically to interdict other CMDRs in the hope of an interesting outcome? So when he interdicts me, strangely I'm not interested (at that time as I'm just not kitted out for it and maybe have cargo on board I don't want to lose, or exploration/bounties I don't want to lose) and see the whole affair as aggravation.

Of course if he was interdicting me to pirate any cargo I have, fair enough, but given the poor mechanics behind piracy this is few and far between, and almost certainly any interdiction these days is falling into the mindless destruction type instead...



The fact that PvP is basically regularly just someone looking for PvP interdicting another player not interested (or kitted out) for PvP, and then mindlessly attacking and destroying them is rediculous IMHO. It's a big fat arrow pointing to a number of glaring issues in the game from crime and punishment, to piracy, to the fact the game doesn't orchestrate any meaningful PvP.

A key problem that unless you have specifically selected a combat ship *and* set it up for bounty hunting you will almost certainly lose against anyone that interdicts you. Fighting isn't an option.

The corollaries of this - i) PVP heads should pick on combat ships if they want to have an enjoyable fight, and ii) if an explorer or trader gets interdicted you pretty much know you've got a griefer on your hands, actual pirates beinb an endangered species.

 

[kofeyh]

Speaking of head in the sand, you appear to have missed the bit about PVP being optional. Thanks to solo and groups, players can choose not to participate.

If you want a more vibrant open then you and other PVP heads need to adopt a more reasonable stance. Combat logging is frequently a symptom of an underlying disease (eg abusive or rude behaviour).

You also need to realise that driving PVE-oriented players away from PVP encounters is far more of a problem for PVP than PVE, because a lot of us don't really care if you exist. And we have a very nice option to make sure that you don't.

a) I'm not a PVP head. Actually.
b) seriously, not a PVP head.

I play in open. But I don't hunt commanders. Thanks for lumping me in with PVP people but you are ignoring my point by trying to invalidate my viewpoint (you are PVP ergo your opinion is irrelevant).

I come at this from the perspective that for C&P to have teeth and for Frontier to gain traction on this, the the CL loophole has to go. Because those PVP people you are lumping me with happily use the same mechanic to get out of jail free.

Laws mean jack if they are not enforceable. Frontier can improve this, but they have to want to improve it and they have to swallow their own medicine and close the CL loophole.

And I am well aware there are other modes. Solo exists specifically for people to opt out of player interaction. Private group can only be "in principle" because combat is still a valid outcome.

You want consequences (oddly so do the combat jockeys) to crime? It has to be enforceable and consistent. That requires very big changes from FDev.

 

[thirstyfish]

I am about to hit elite and was gonna make.my base in Jameson. Is this flying idiot thing new or a passing phase, I don't mind a barney but also noticed I don't get pulled up when flying a big boy, but wanted the asp etc there

Nope, not new and not a passing phase. Trust me, I spend enough time in open on fuel rat rescues to know that.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I liked your version better. Everyone needs a Halo avatar to emote for them on the forums.

Master Chief is our only hope once again. And this time, he's saving us from the miscommunication plague!

- - - Updated - - -

And it's not even as black and white as that.


For example, I'd suggest many players are not "PvP players" or "PvE players". Sometimes they'll be doing PvE specific gameplay and maybe other times they might be interested in PvP. ie: If I'm doing some gameplay such as running a few missions, I'll probably be in a Asp or Python aimed at PvE. And yes, because the game isn't balanced well, we have this PvE and PvP disparity.

But now introduce another CMDR who wants some PvP, and his only option (bizarely) is basically to interdict other CMDRs in the hope of an interesting outcome? So when he interdicts me, strangely I'm not interested (at that time as I'm just not kitted out for it and maybe have cargo on board I don't want to lose, or exploration/bounties I don't want to lose) and see the whole affair as aggravation.

Of course if he was interdicting me to pirate any cargo I have, fair enough, but given the poor mechanics behind piracy this is few and far between, and almost certainly any interdiction these days is falling into the mindless destruction type instead...



The fact that PvP is basically regularly just someone looking for PvP interdicting another player not interested (or kitted out) for PvP, and then mindlessly attacking and destroying them is rediculous IMHO. It's a big fat arrow pointing to a number of glaring issues in the game from crime and punishment, to piracy, to the fact the game doesn't orchestrate any meaningful PvP.

Why don't kill warant and cargo scanners work in supercruise?

That's a genuine question, by the way.