Logging During Combat Punishment [Proposal]
- Thread starter MONTItheRed
- Start date
That isn't the definition of combat logging I am using. Fdev have stated that combat logging is an exploit.
Then the publishing of combat loggers would occur in game, similar to the bounty boards that exist already, since these bounty boards are not persistent, and change with time, I think that would be a valid in character and in game medium.
And that is a viable, valid, and approved way of exiting combat.
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No you don't. No one knows what they are getting regardless of the mode they log in to.
Punishment should be limited to launching the ED client.
I added something to this affect to the opening post. However, as others have brought up, being kicked out of open may not be a punishment. I think temporarily banning them from the game would be a punishment. If people want to play the game, then preventing them from doing so would be a form of punishment.
There's other non-Frontier games to play that I can spend my money on. Getting banned in a non-issue. Maybe the people who are so angry about combat logging should try some of the other content in the game.
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Thank you for the detailed and civil response. I apologize for the delay in replying, but I wanted to take the time and effort in the response that you have shown in your response. The broad summary I take from your responses is that punishing for something that isn't detectable or enforceable isn't prudent at this time. That's a valid criticism. However, I don't think that combat logging is undetectable or the punishment unenforceable. This is a point of unknown because Fdev has not been entirely transparent in their processes for detecting and punishing combat logging.
I don't know how the devs detect or enforce combat logging. I've heard of shadowbanning, but haven't come across anything definitive from the devs on what that is. If shadowbanning is removing players from open, that may not be a suitable punishment if solo and private are still available. I don't think that combat logging is undetectable or unenforceable. If combat logging is undetectable or unenforceable, the devs should redefine the term.
I agree that the game mechanics need work. Perhaps Fdev should clarify their intent for PVP, punishment for combat logging (and other exploits), and actions & timely they are taking towards those intents.
I agree that near certainty, since absolute certainty is near impossible, should be used prior to punishment. I don't know how the devs would come to that near certainty because I don't know how their current methods work.
Fdev are free to redefine combat logging, as I've said before. It may be worthwhile for the devs to redefine combat logging to something other or different than an exploit until such time their processes and punishments are more reliable. I don't think that the P2P architecture of the game is "inherently flawed", it merely is. How the players choose to use game mechanics should be the matter at hand.
I presume that Fdev don't consider mode switching as an exploit because it is a designed mechanic of the game and doesn't directly negatively affect other players.
I agree that some (I can't say vast) PVP players don't want challenging PVP. The lack of consistent and regular public PVP tournaments is evidence of that, as is the perception that a disproportionate amount of PVP is between combat and non-combat ships. I also agree that the PVP and combat logging players are very small and vocal minorities
I don't that most PVP duels are balanced. I don't think it is likely that two PVP duelists are fighting in exactly the same ships. The player community has overcome many of the in-game communication features through use of third party programs (discord, slack, teamspeak, reddit, etc). I do think that an in-game comm rework is long (since launch) overdue.
Personally I think the perception of combat logging greatly outnumbers the actual amount of combat logging. I agree that the game mechanics (connection issues, interdiction, instancing, in-game comms, crime & punishment) need to be improved. However, I don't think that fixing the game mechanics would prevent all combat logging, nor act as a deterrent or punishment for those that are guilty of combat logging, exploiting, cheating, or griefing. Beyond the poor crime & punishment system, I don't see how the game mechanics justify or encourage combat logging.
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I agree that Fdev needs more transparency in this matter. How they determine combat logging, cheating, exploiting, griefing; what punishments are used, how often, and on how many players.
I don't know how the devs detect or enforce combat logging. I've heard of shadowbanning, but haven't come across anything definitive from the devs on what that is. If shadowbanning is removing players from open, that may not be a suitable punishment if solo and private are still available. I don't think that combat logging is undetectable or unenforceable. If combat logging is undetectable or unenforceable, the devs should redefine the term.
I agree that the game mechanics need work. Perhaps Fdev should clarify their intent for PVP, punishment for combat logging (and other exploits), and actions & timely they are taking towards those intents.
I agree that near certainty, since absolute certainty is near impossible, should be used prior to punishment. I don't know how the devs would come to that near certainty because I don't know how their current methods work.
Fdev are free to redefine combat logging, as I've said before. It may be worthwhile for the devs to redefine combat logging to something other or different than an exploit until such time their processes and punishments are more reliable. I don't think that the P2P architecture of the game is "inherently flawed", it merely is. How the players choose to use game mechanics should be the matter at hand.
I presume that Fdev don't consider mode switching as an exploit because it is a designed mechanic of the game and doesn't directly negatively affect other players.
I agree that some (I can't say vast) PVP players don't want challenging PVP. The lack of consistent and regular public PVP tournaments is evidence of that, as is the perception that a disproportionate amount of PVP is between combat and non-combat ships. I also agree that the PVP and combat logging players are very small and vocal minorities
I don't that most PVP duels are balanced. I don't think it is likely that two PVP duelists are fighting in exactly the same ships. The player community has overcome many of the in-game communication features through use of third party programs (discord, slack, teamspeak, reddit, etc). I do think that an in-game comm rework is long (since launch) overdue.
Personally I think the perception of combat logging greatly outnumbers the actual amount of combat logging. I agree that the game mechanics (connection issues, interdiction, instancing, in-game comms, crime & punishment) need to be improved. However, I don't think that fixing the game mechanics would prevent all combat logging, nor act as a deterrent or punishment for those that are guilty of combat logging, exploiting, cheating, or griefing. Beyond the poor crime & punishment system, I don't see how the game mechanics justify or encourage combat logging.
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I agree that Fdev needs more transparency in this matter. How they determine combat logging, cheating, exploiting, griefing; what punishments are used, how often, and on how many players.
Oh look another "My 3 mates and I didn't get our jollies on the armless trader in the T7, please fix it FD so we have a lame, 3 legged Hedgehog to kick down the street while laughing! Oh, and if it escapes in ANY way, ban it. NO, KILL IT'S FAMILY, then ban it!" ...The End...
**Please note, no real Hedgehogs were harmed in this metaphor.
**Please note, no real Hedgehogs were harmed in this metaphor.
I have replied to this
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ent-Proposal?p=4856215&viewfull=1#post4856215
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What do you mean by "simply ban"? Ban from open (shadowbanning)? Ban from connecting to the game?
I assume that Fdev does have a punishment, but I don't have many details on what that punishment is, how or how often it is applied, or to how many cmdrs, or on how many infractions. Therefore I proposed another punishment system within the framework of six methods of punishment.
I've only found three references to brain logging, so I am uncertain of your meaning and intent here.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-effect-rank?p=4747621&viewfull=1#post4747621
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...gainst-NPC-s?p=4827355&viewfull=1#post4827355
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...mbat-Logging?p=4819877&viewfull=1#post4819877
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Oh look another "My 3 mates and I didn't get our jollies on the armless trader in the T7, please fix it FD so we have a lame, 3 legged Hedgehog to kick down the street while laughing! Oh, and if it escapes in ANY way, ban it. NO, KILL IT'S FAMILY, then ban it!" ...The End...
**Please note, no real Hedgehogs were harmed in this metaphor.
Are you assuming that I am (or most of my friends are) PVP player? If so, sorry to disappoint but you are incorrect.
You clearly are a PvP player. This plan reeks of it. You don't take connection errors into account, or even suggest at a way to detect them. Shows near complete ignorance of FDev's peer 2 peer system. Public humiliation will NOT fly, FDev won't do it. Just check the forum rules. Also, all of the possible "punishment" options are way to overblown. The RL equivalent would be giving the death sentence to a petty thief. You are giving $50,000 of punishment for a $5 crime. You are also not considering the repercussions. Open would most likely become even more devoid of players than it already is. The devs don't investigate combat logging claims as it is, there is another thread that shows this. This plan also doesn't take into account what a non PvP player would want to see. One of the most common reasons for combat logging is to get away from a griefer/ganker. This plan would be punishing the victim of what is basically online harassment/bullying. Is that what you want to do, punish the victim?
FDev can't do that. This game has peer-to-peer architecture. What you are suggesting could be possible if the game were run on a central server, but its not. Also doesn't take into account connection errors, or uncontrolled loss of power (blackout). Both do happen.
Another method would be to reduce the incentive to combat log. On another thread someone brought up the issue of offenses in game. This brought to mind an interesting preventative measure for combat logging: Make PVP combat a non-penalizing activity. No fines, no bounties, no rebuys, no cargo/mission/exploration data loss, teleport the destroyed player back to the station they last departed from or to the nearest station capable of supporting their ship.
It's nonsensical for the Pilots Federation to be involved in out of game actions which don't exist in lore. Combat logging, cheating and using exploits are all things without a lore-based explanation. Making one would only serve to legitimise them and defeat the whole purpose.
Obviously that doesn't mean Frontier can't punish for whichever of those actions it deems necessary. Just that it can just be done administratively without worrying about explaining it in game.
The one valid aspect from a lore perspective is that the PF has a "zero tolerance" policy against attacking clean ships. If the argument is that the PF should dramatically increase punishments for breaking its rules, it only ends up applying to griefers and the few remaining PvP pirates.
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Because it is. Others have pointed this out already, but I will go a step further....
Any interaction with other people, no matter where you are or where you go, is a privilege. That's what words like "community" and "society" mean. That's why we have cultural standards of approvable, accepted behavior.
If you are a kid on a playground, and you start just doing whatever you want, maybe including throwing punches or tripping people and laughing about it, thinking that getting to play with other kids is your right & not a privilege, you'd get booted off the playground in a heartbeat, and not only would you spend the rest of the year sitting at the lunch tables during recess, you'd likely have the parents of the affected other children stepping in and demanding further repurcussions like detention and possibly even expulsion.
Playing with other people is not, never has been, and never will be, your right to have. You cannot force other people to suffer your presence without dire consequences.
I don't agree with any of this.
I don't like ideas that prevent people from playing altogether. What happens in Solo stays in solo, and while the BGS needs lots of work, that's the *only* legitimate concern about how players in solo affect anybody else. Plus there's ongoing bugs and glitches, like self-replicating NPC pirates who don't obey the rules of supercruise & instancing, that justify resorting to 'combat logging' to escape what is absolutely a situation unintended by Frontier. (Or times when you are inside a star or planet after completing a jump....)
Making players pay for their target's rebuy just discourages PvP, at that point it would be easier & better to make an official "PvE" server mode.
And I don't think the restitution idea would work at all.
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Most people on these boards support combat logging and consider it to be an Ok thing to do because in their minds it's just pressing on the scales of justice to correct an imbalance which shouldn't exist in the first place. Most people view it as the moral equivalent of a poor downtrodden oppressed minority stealing bread from Trump Tower to feed his starving family. At most you'll get people to agree that yeah it's technically against the rules but in no way should it be punished or even acknowledged as a problem. To treat it as a real problem deserving of real action is to reveal yourself as the Wrong Kind of Person who should not be listened to. You might as well go around shouting "ALL lives matter!" because it would be viewed the same way. So you're not going to have a good hearing for your ideas here I don't think. Good luck though!
It is amusing to me that the premise of the above post is based on incorrect assumptions. This is a weakness of an ad hominem attack from a position of ignorance. If whether or not I am PVP player is of such importance, send me a private message. I've requested a kill/death count from Fdev support.
I don't take connection errors into account or a way to detect them because I assume that Fdev has a way of doing this. I am neither a computer science major nor an IT specialist. Therefore if I were to criticize or attempt to correct Fdev's method, it would be from a position of self-declared ignorance and lack of experience. As stated in the open post, and MANY times in this and other threads, the proposal assumes that guilt has already been determined.
Fdev should make their method of determining guilt more transparent, as well as what punishments are take, how often, and on how many players.
I am not asking for the CMDR names or personally identifiable information with regards to rules violations to be published on the forums or reddit. There is already a form of public humiliation through the in game bounty boards. Also, I have revised the Pilot's Federation Crime Report, to be more inclusive, but less specific, regarding rules violations.
So, similar to getting a death penalty (bounty) for loitering over a landing pad you don't have clearance for? Or firing on a station? Or being destroyed for trespassing?
Being fined your rebuy isn't overblown if the ship was being destroyed. Also note that the punishment I put forward didn't include the destruction of the ship, cargo, exploration data, or mission progress. This is less of a punishment that getting your ship destroyed.
Players should consider the possible repercussions of their actions, especially when those actions are in violation of the devs policy, guidelines, and rules. Also, consider the repercussions of Fdev NOT punishing rules violations. There have been numerous gaming news sites publishing articles regarding Fdev not following through with punishing combat logging.
The other thread doesn't show that the devs don't investigate combat logging claims, only that they didn't investigate THOSE combat logging claims. Fdev admitted to this. Fdev should be held accountable for not enforcing its own rules and policies.
Why else would I submit the proposal to two different forums as well as a google doc for tracking changes? Punishment for rules violations should matter on whether the player is PVP, PVE, solo, open, or private. If someone breaks the rules, they should be held accountable and responsible for their actions. Likewise, the community should hold the developers accountable and responsible for enforcing said rules and punishments.
This plan does not punish the victim. It punishes those that break the rules. PVP combat is not always harassment or bullying. If it is harassment, bullying, griefing or otherwise against the rules, those offenders should be punished. If Fdev want to change the rules or change the definitions, that is their prerogative.
On the preventative side of things, make PVP combat a non-penalizing activity. No fines, no bounties, no rebuys, no cargo/mission/exploration data loss, teleport the destroyed player back to the station they last departed from or the nearest station that can accommodate their ship.
Alternatively, an Open PVE mode could be created, but this would likely deplete players from the Open PVP mode. It would also necessitate some changes to mechanics within one mode.
There is already a solution to people combat logging when you shoot them.
CQC
If your opponent logs out, you win.
In any other game mode, you shouldn't be attacking people without asking, and if you do, don't be surprised if they don't want to play with you. Instead of attacking, try using chat to ask what they've been up to in game, and maybe offer to wing up. Then you'll find people happy to play with you instead of logging off.
CQC
If your opponent logs out, you win.
In any other game mode, you shouldn't be attacking people without asking, and if you do, don't be surprised if they don't want to play with you. Instead of attacking, try using chat to ask what they've been up to in game, and maybe offer to wing up. Then you'll find people happy to play with you instead of logging off.
Fine. I don't see NPCs coming to the forums to complain about combat loggers.