Rant/Plea to fix Wing Beacon issues present since 2.1


You're right, there are several existing threads on this issue. Like this one, for example.

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Notice the date, 13 June 2016. Not even the first report and certainly not the last one. It hasn't been fixed, along with the other wing issues in the OP, for almost six months. If Frontier needs more info on it, we should give it to them. But just in case the issue isn't a lack of enough information to troubleshoot, I think it's perfectly appropriate to create new threads so that FD is aware this affects more than a couple commanders.

That's my real concern, that these wing issues have lingered as long as they have because they're viewed as low priority. Multiplayer has been jacked up since the game launched in 2014. Most people who play multiplayer have probably long given up and moved on to games that don't make them pull their hair out. It's probably affecting a very small segment of the playing population at this point... but I'm still trying to get the word out.

Thanks. Not sure if my video will be helpful then. I guess I'll presume that the Frontier people have enough information then to resolve this.

Hey Spore, presume NOTHING. Post your video and logs and anything else you can. If you ran into this bug, that means you fly with friends and if you give up it'll never get fixed! You're fighting the good fight, my man! Keep it up! o7

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1. Dropping connections/crash to main menu from wings during high/low wakes
2. Dropping to wing beacons in current position rather than the beacon position, often millions of meters away.
3. Rubber-band snapping back to the beacon location if the nav lock is not turned off and you low-wake away
4. Positional drifting caused by a wingmate's location changing, most evident when trying to dock at a station in an instance where a wingmate has already docked, resulting in a pilot's ship moving like rotational correction is off, making docking nearly impossible without relogging.
5. Wingmate does not appear on scanner, only the wing beacon, which skips around the scanner as the wingmate's position updates every few seconds.
I and my wingmates have experienced all 5 of the above issues at one point or another. As of 2.2 winging up is relatively stable and dropping beacons mostly works but issue #5 has become so frequent it is essentually the norm when trying to wing up now.

We literally spend more time trying to see each other than we do playing in a wing. And that's just with me and 1 other person :(
 
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Well, on the bright side, it's not just our imagination that this is happening. I was starting to wonder.

Skip to 15:43.

[video=youtube_share;V_yDUAqLb38]https://youtu.be/V_yDUAqLb38?t=943[/video]

I dunno guys, what's the answer here? Turn on port forwarding? Make sure rotational correction is turned on?

I hope Ed filed a bug report and gathered the logs from his wingmates.

Even better? It's still a bug in 2.2.03

CMDRs if you want to see this issue fixed, report it. Post about it. Let FDev know it's a priority for you. It's been a problem since 2.1. If you don't make some noise about it, we'll be singing this same old song in 2.3.

I'm sure people are tired of seeing this thread bubble to the top of the board. If it makes you feel better, I'm tired of posting about it. [knocked out]
 
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Well, on the bright side, it's not just our imagination that this is happening. I was starting to wonder.

Skip to 15:43.

[knocked out]

Brilliant spot! Welcome to the game the rest of us having been playing since 2.1 FDEVs! :)

I've spent enough time collating verbose netlogs from myself and my wingmates simply for these posts to seemingly disappear into the void.

We (myself and friends) don't use any Wing features anymore other than to find each other. Wingman nav lock and beacons are permanently switched off as they don't work consistently enough.

I appreciate this must be a nightmare to diagnose and implement fixes for, but still, this all worked for me flawlessly pre 2.1 :(

Hopefully one day it'll be fixed.

I do amuse myself sometimes thinking about what multi-crew ships are going to be like. Can't wait to see my co-pilot drifting out of his seat, through the roof of my ship and out into the black!
 
Multiple repeated posts regarding this bug and related wing bugs since 2.1 beta. Still. Broken.

As with others in this apparent minority, I encouraged friends to purchase the game based in part on the ability to wing up and tackle challenges together. In 2.0, one of those friends and I went on a short exploration excursion toward the core (didn't make it that far that time). We were able to wing up without connection issues (comms were and remain a bit wonky). Another friend joined up shortly before 2.1 and we all enjoyed some nice wing trading, including functional navlocks into stations, mining, and combat.

After 2.1... well, it was hit or miss. Mostly miss.

SO, here is another beta with another 'tweak' to Wings. On the plus side, the disconnection on hyperspace seems to remain fixed (as it was for me in 2.2) but the navlock into stations remains broken and comms constantly lag (up to 30 seconds at a time) and disconnect. I've begun using discord for communications as it is at the very least stable, lag free, and clear while playing Elite. I do miss the nice ambiance that the ED comms provides, but that is a very small benefit that cannot override the constant issue with dropped comms.

PLEASE devote more attention to this. PLEASE do not wait until 2.3 to correct the wing issues.
 
Well, huzzah! A minor victory at least... Thanks to IPL Victim's bug report in the 2.2.03 forum, we finally have acknowledgement from support that this is an issue and it's being looked at!

Unfortunately, in the same message:

2.2.3 beta is specifically focused on changes made to Engineers, powerplay and combat.

Does this mean that they're not looking at patching to existing problems as well? 2.2.03's patch notes seems to cover some issues unrelated to Engineers, powerplay OR combat. Certainly they could get this on the list.

If not, and it is put off until 2.3 or beyond, it will be quite vexing.
 
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Thought you chaps might be interested in this ...

We're constantly trying to improve the underlying systems code in the game, as well as the gameplay, but sometimes it can be difficult to diagnose and fix problems when you can't reproduce them in-house. In order to help understand the causes of instancing and connection problems, we have been working recently with the Fuel Rats, to collect network logs of any rescue attempts that didn't go as smoothly as they should.

Some of the issues we have seen from these reports have already been fixed in the live game, with hot-fixes to the servers. If you're already in a wing with another player, and you're trying to meet up, then you should be assigned to the same server when jumping into the system (even is one player is un USA and the other is in Europe.)

We have a number of fixes to the networking code which we're testing in this new beta, but in order to explain the changes I'll first need to explain about 'Turn'. When we're trying to set up a connection between two player machines, it's sometimes the case that due to the way the routers or firewalls are configured, it's not possible to establish a direct connection. In this case, we follow an internet standard called TURN (rfc5766) to relay the packets from one player to the Turn server, then back to the other player.


Bug no 1: Prematurely Skipping to Turn

Because of the timeouts and retries, it normally takes around 15 seconds to decide that a direct connection isn't working, so we should switch to using Turn. Now we know that we're never going to be able to set up a direct link between certain types of routers, and we're exchanging info on the router type along with the connection addresses, so in those cases where we know we're not going to succeed with a direct link, there's an optimisation to go straight to Turn: however this wasn't taking into account those cases where one of the players had set up manual port forwarding on his router (in which case a direct connection should be possible.)

In the latest beta, if you have configured manual port forwarding, this info is also passed to the other player, so we don't skip straight to Turn when a direct connection should be possible.


Bug no 2: Incorrect Letter Fragmentation

The networking code exchanges packets from one machine to another; each packet contains one or more letters, but a packet cannot be more than 1500 bytes (maybe less, depending on the MTU.) One of the network logs from the FuelRats showed an error where a large letter (over 4k bytes) had been broken into smaller letters for transmission, but then one of those fragment letters was still too big to fit into the packet. This bug would eventually result is a p2p disconnection.

What was happening was at the time the letter was being broken into fragments, it was using the theoretical maximum packet size for the connection; however when it came to put the second or subsequent fragments into a packet, the buffer size for the packet was actually smaller than expected (because it was communicating over Turn!) This bug is also fixed in the current beta.


Bug no 3: Initialisation Race Condition

One of the things we need to do at startup is to identify the type of router: this can sometimes take several seconds. In some cases, we were connecting to the server before this process was complete, and passing incomplete connection details to the server (in particular, this left out the Turn details) - these incomplete connection details would then be passed on to other players, and if a direct connection proved to be impossible, it would not then be able to fall back to using Turn. We have a fix for this in the pipeline for beta3.


Bug no 4: Handling Port Forwarding

As mentioned above, some players set up a manual port forwarding rule on their router, so that (for example) any packets coming in on the router's external port 5100 should be mapped to their PC's local port 5100. They would then set port="5100" in their appconfig.xml. However this port forwarding usually only applies for incoming packets: when the PC sends a packet out, the router may select a direct random external port to transmit from. This means that when our server receives the packet, it thinks that random port number is the one to reply to (which works, because the router can see it's a reply), and it also uses it when telling other players about how to connect to the machine (which typically will not work).

Back in summer 2015, we added another appconfig setting, eg. routerport="5100" which means the game will tell the server that manual port forwarding is in use, and the server should reply to that port 5100. However this new setting was not adequately communicated to the players, and relatively few have set this option.

In beta3, the game will assume that if you have set port="5100" in your appconfig.xml, this means that you have set up port forwarding in your router, and the routerport option should no longer be necessary (unless you're using a different port number, I can't see why you would want to do that, but I'm not going to prohibit it)

For most players using a domestic broadband router, manual port forwarding should not be necessary - if the router supports UPNP the game can tell the router what ports to use. In the current beta, only around 1.5% of the connections are from players with manual port forwarding.


I'd like to thanks the Fuel rats (especially Cmdr Absolver, Cmdr Termite Altair and Cmdr Curbinbabies) for their help in investigating these problems, along with Cmdr Jan Solo for his log files with evidence of the race condition bug. We will continue to look into bug reports: if you think there's a networking issue, please submit a support ticket, and supply network logs if possible, but I hope this fixes will make a noticeable improvement to network stability.
 
Nice one to everyone involved in helping to get this stuff sorted

Definitely going to figure out how to set up all those net logs so I can report the crap out if any weirdness.
 
Yup. Wings are unplayable right now. It was way better a year ago. And after a disconnect its almost impossible to gather the wing back together in the same instance.

Second problem is the disconnect during FSD-Charging in Neutron-Jets ... this is a 100% death after the reconnect.
 
Really struggling with wings now. Issus include all of those listed in the OP except the station bouncing as we've never made it into the station while still in a wing.

Any word when this is going to get some specific fixes?
 
Sorry to resurrect a slightly old thread but I was curious whether all the wing and networking fixes in 2.2.03 had addressed some or all of the problems raised here?
 
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Sorry to resurrect a slightly old thread but I was curious whether all the wing and networking fixes in 2.2.03 had addressed some or all of the problems raised here?

I've not had much more than 3 hours play time on 2.2.03 (and that was on patch day, so I suspect the servers were getting hammered) but during this time, myself and two wing mates did see some improvements.

We'll certainly be doing more testing, but 2 old problems I encountered:-

1) Using wing man nav lock I still intermittently dropped over 100Ls away from their signal.

2) Again, using wing man nav lock to leave a resource extraction site, what I like to call the "oh I left my hand brake on bug" still persisted, i.e., they continued on in super cruise whilst I got dropped back in the res immediately after entering super cruise.

My ISP is Virgin, and at the time they were reporting problems in my area, so we'll do a more thorough test sometime next week hopefully.

Cheers

Cmdr Soar
 
I have never port forwarded for a game in my may years of PC gaming experiences (unless hosting my own server) so I never changed any of those settings. Could someone try to explain in layman terms why I have to do that for this game and never for any other? Is it the Amazon distributed network thing? How can I connect to the wings SOMETIMES and not others if I never made the 'required?' port forwarding changes?
 
Sorry to resurrect a slightly old thread but I was curious whether all the wing and networking fixes in 2.2.03 had addressed some or all of the problems raised here?

Apparently not, if these fresh bug report updates are to be believed:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/320629-Constantly-drifting-to-the-side-in-stations
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/317301-Cutter-destryed-in-station-caught-on-scenery
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/321801-Wing-Lock-broken-near-landable-planets
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/320356-Wing-Nav-Lock-instance-problems
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/321849-Instancing-problems-in-open-play-continue

I give up.

If there was any hope that this was going to get fixed soon, it was before 2.2.03 dropped. I read about the matchmaking/networking improvements and I had hope. They got me. I started to believe. It sounded like they'd found some deep, dark hard to squash bugs and that wings/instancing issues might get licked.

Wrong. Not only wrong, but reading through the new post .03 bug report updates, Frontier Support is still responding with "send logs" as if they've never heard of this issue. Being patient failed. Encouraging people to report the bug failed. Being snarky failed.

These issues ain't getting fixed anytime soon, if ever. I honestly believe now that they can't be fixed. The infrastructure they built the game on can't support the game. Need any further proof, just look at the Is The Alien Puzzle Broken thread. I have a feeling that this is the first sustained muliplayer experience a lot of CMDRs are having where they stick in an instance and try to do something together... and it's surprising when while talking to their fellow commanders that they don't see the same thing outside their windows. Even worse, the mechanics of the puzzle are inconsistent depending on the game mode, open or solo. Just wait 'til multicrew rolls out and people in the same ship don't see the same thing, or crew members disappear randomly from their ships.

I guess I'm going to. Wait for 2.3, that is, but how far away is that? "Playing my way" means flying in a wing with a friend, and it doesn't work for me. Missions are also a huge source of fun, and have been effectively borked for months now as well. Reading all of the bug reports and threads on that, they're not getting fixed anytime soon either.

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See y'all after 2.3, maybe.
 
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Just been watching the recent livestream wth Dav Stott and around the 1hr mark he talks about using Ctrl+Alt+L (added in 2.2.03) to turn on additional diagnostics/logging specifically to help try and get to the bottom of wing/instancing problems.

Livestream is here if anyone wants to know more ...

https://youtu.be/YGqndJFKOfA

Alec, just gotta say you've been one of the best ambassadors of this game Frontier could hope for, and generally just a good dude in the forums (and the game) in general. You're a genuine fan and supporter without being a white knight and that's as difficult a balancing act as criticizing the game without being a basher. o7

That being said, I'm out of hope. I'm glad they included this advanced logging in, but this bug report pretty much confirms what I knew what was going to happen.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/321849-Instancing-problems-in-open-play-continue

Hey winston,

Thank you for the detailed report.

I've passed this on to assist in the investigation into this issue.

If this continues after the 2.3 update please do let me know.

This isn't the QA department's fault or responsibility, either. All they can do is pass along the reports and the dev team manager decides what's a priority, which is why I made this thread: to try and encourage other players who were having this issue to report it and get it on the radar to bump it up the list.

But it's pretty clear now these issues are not getting fixed until 2.3, if then. And barring the release of another client side hotfix (doubtful) the insta-fail missions aren't going to get fixed either. I can't speak for everybody, obviously, but for me playing with a friend in a wing and running missions are the two things I enjoy the most and they have both been hosed for months now.

Insta-fail was introduced in the last patch, but missions themselves have been borked in payout and availability for much longer. This affects more people than wing issues since even solo players run missions (no co-op missions, either, but that's a different rant) and maybe it'll be a hot enough issue to warrant another hotfix patch. But from the activity I'm seeing in the bug forum, CMDRs experiencing the issue might just have to deal with it until 2.3 comes out.

This makes me very sad because this used to be my favorite game, and I was excited to be a part of it and introduce it to other people. Now I warn them away.

It sucks falling out of love.
 
Well this is disappointing. So this is an issue that originally appeared with the 2.1.0.1 or 2.1.0.2 patch way back in May of last year... one year ago, and it is still a problem. My last response to this thread was a plea to try and get someone at Frontier to look at this before the next major patch hit in January. Here it is May, after 2.3.0.01 and it's still a problem. One year after it was first reported.

Bear in mind that this issue did not exist in 2.0. These issues with wings were introduced with the 2.1 patch and still exist today.

The past week I've been flying in a wing and been experiencing the same nav-lock issues detailed at the beginning of the thread: my wingman sometimes doesn't show up as a hollow rectangle, but only a solid blue marker where his wing beacon is, and it jumps around the scanner. Attempting to drop in on the wing beacon drops us millions of Km from the wingman instead of on target. But worst of all, if wing nav lock is on when the wingmate is already in an instance and docking, the second person to dock gets graphical glitches and then is dragged around the interior of the station like rotational correction has failed. The ship either scrapes into the walls until it is destroyed, or the timer runs out and the station destroys the ship, or the player exits to the menu and comes back into the game and has to re-dock from 10km out.

This makes the meager co-op play in the game even harder because if you use the nav lock to get to stations faster it can end up killing you.

And it has been going on for over a year. It's not something everyone experiences, which I understand makes it harder to troubleshoot, but it is a real issue. Anyone who doubts this, go back to page 5 and watch when Ed Lewis experiences it in a livestream. Bug reports have been filed. Multiple reports, from multiple users. Frontier, please take a look at it. This really makes it hard for players like me trying to enjoy Elite Dangerous with a friend a trial.
 
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Thank you for keeping this going. It needs to be fixed. It's incredibly frustrating that nav-lock is all but useless and in fact often detrimental.
 
As to navlock vs station bug, there seems to be a workaround - don't drop on the wing beacon and approach station normally. At least it used to work this way for me and my buddies. But it still is a workaround... And being a dev I know how much it sucks to not be able to reproduce the problem reliably in test environment so I have some pity for them.

My only hope is that we made past "port-elite-to-consoles-and-disguise-that-as-season-pass" phase, and now the development can continue with full workforce, fixing this and other annoyances and introducing some worthwhile new things into the game. Because if not, as you nicely put it "it sucks falling out of love". That is, unless a new flame appears, lots of promising young early access titles developing :p
 
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