400 billion starssystems...is that 399.99bn too many?

[Shigawire]

Long live the Golden Path and welcome to The Scattering (let's hope Melange doesn't get implemented

Mmmmmmm... Shai-Hulud! I invoke The Amtal Rule to test the galaxy.

 

[Helios]

If i thought i couldn't visit every possible location and try every concievable thing then life would seem utterly meaningless and i'd just give up and top myself.

There are 7 billion people on the world. Assuming that you will never manage to have a conversation with every single one (which would require more time than you have and also require you to learn all languages in existence or hiring skilled interpreters for years which would cost you more than just a single fortune) this world must be a pretty horrible place for you...

 

[SuperG]

Well i for one entirely understand the OP's concerns - for instance i won't visit any restauraunt if the menu's too extensive for me to try every single item. And when i buy a new house, once i've stood in every concievable location inside it, i methodically start visiting every possible location outside of it, basically abandoning it and just wandering off, following a strict grid-mapped spiral, so i don't miss anywhere. Otherwise, what's the point of existence?

If i thought i couldn't visit every possible location and try every concievable thing then life would seem utterly meaningless and i'd just give up and top myself. Ideally, ED should be a smaller sandbox, about 4 feet squared (not cubed), and your ship a slightly-smaller box - say 3 ft^2, otherwise i'll get all sweaty and agrophopic and have to go sit in a cupboard doing breathing exercises.

In do not think you understand. Your comparison are very wrong.

I give it a try to mimic that to personal space. You have a house like a living boat docked at a someting like "oil"Rig at coast line. but without oil and lower from swiming distance from a large island. The space craft ( livingboat ) to orbital space station ( coast rig ) to prime planet. ( huge island )

That island ( planet ) is in de goldilock zone. Nice climate but is group of island. Maby a neighbure with olso a doable climate, but the coast rig is from swimming distance. The next ( planet ) as island not so, its far and need at least a rowboat. Also those island are big, in the other direction these island get to extreemly cold. Mimic outer planets. As cold islamd. The other direction this goup get hotter to fire island and then on the end a super large super volcano island. The size of contigent like australia. That the star.

Then extreemly far out the nextgroup of islamds with a supervolcano to far to smim to, to far for rowboat to far for speed boat. Needs a very exotic boat like a waterplane. That mimic FTL. Exept this planet full of iland and bilion suer volcnos. Mimics galacy this planet would be the size of rocky planet similar to beetlegeuze star or the much bigger super giants once. And the law of physics are haywire because a rocky water planet that big would colaps in a black hole.

What this means is 400 bil is even not to much. But insanly to much beyound comprehention.
1 bill is way to much as it incompas on averge full planet sized open sandbox worlds. In the bilions.
If 1 promile are of intressed. You could explore each world for year or so. That a milion. And some are colonisation or large society in the 1000. Wich you could explore for many years in the thousand.
A 10 fold of these goldilock planets have ecosystems large with complex flora and fauna which could keep a exobiologs busy for multiple life times. And you got 10000 of those.

But its not 1 bil but 400. So insane huge get more insane huge.

And even if where dwarf galacy of 1 mil stars it would be still mind bogeling huge.
Thus do we need so much no.
It is that milky way is that huge of amount of stars. Andromeda is even bigger.
But there are also dwarf galacy and the sol sector of close 1 mil of stars would be enough even for a exploring centerd space game. Up to 10 mil.

Even if the estimates are way of. Still then its way to much.

 

[Galantir]

In do not think you understand. Your comparison are very wrong.

I give it a try to mimic that to personal space. You have a house like a living boat doked at a someting like "oil"Rig at cast line. but without oil and lower from swiming distance from a large island. The space craft ( livingboat ) to orbital soacestation ( coast rig ) to prime planet. ( huge island )

That island ( planet ) is in de goldilock zone. Nice climate but is group of island. Maby a neighbure with doable climate, but the coast rig is from swimming distance. The next ( planet ) as island not so, its far need rowboat. Also those island are big, in the other direction these island get to extreemly cold. The other direction this goup get hotter to fire island and then on the end a super large super volcano island. The size of contigent like australia.

Then extreemly far out the nextgroup of islamds with a supervolcano to far to smim to, to far for rowboat to far for speed boat. Needs a very exotic boat like a waterplane. That mimic FTL. Exept this planet. Mimics galacy this planet would be the size of rocky planet similar to beetlegeuze star or the much bigger once. And the law of physics are haywire because a rocky water planet that big would colaps in a black hole.

What this means is 400 bil is to not to much. But insanly to much beyound comprehention.
1 bill is to much as it incompas on averge full planet sized open sandbox worlds. In the bilions.
If 1 promile are of intressed. You could explore each world for year or so. That a milion. And some are colonisation or large society in the 1000. Wich you could explore fr many years in the thousand.
A 10 fold of planets have ecosystems large with complex flora and fauna which could keep a exobiologs busy for multiple life times. And you got 10000 of those.

But its not 1 bil but 400. So insane huge get more insane huge.

And even if where dwarf galacy of 1 mil stars it would be still mind bogeling huge.
Thus do we need so much no.
It is that milky way is that huge of amount of stars. Andromeda is even bigger.
But there are also dwarf galacy and the sol sector of close 1 mil of stars would be enough even for a exploring centerd space game. Up to 10 mil.

400 bil is not even enough.
Unlike the OP stated it does not cost anything more than making let's say a 100.000 star galaxy, that's the beauty of procedural generation.

The universe is a vast place bigger than we humans can ever comprehend and what David is doing by adding those 400 bil stars is simply showing people how big that actually is.
The only reason you could have to complain about this amount and vast size is that you wouldn't be able to visit every place in game in your lifetime. But then again you will never visit every single place on earth yet you do not complain about that.
The problem here is that people still need to shift their thinking.
Back in the days of Elite games had 3 lives and a score, people had to shift their way of thinking about games at that moment too.
Now we simply have to start to accept that there will be games that are bigger then what we were used to and that we won't be able to visit every place and get that 100% stat or rank that says you've done it all.

Exploration is always one of those things people would like in a game but it also was quite boring and limited because of the size of most game worlds.
As it stands now with that amount of stars exploration becomes almost limitless. Just simply do the math how long it would take you to visit every single place if it just took 1 second. You'll quickly notice that it's so vast that it's extremely unlikely every place will be visited in the next decade.

Now you could say 400 bil is too much because people would be spread out and you could hardly meet anyone. But there's a flaw in that way of thinking.
Everyone starts out at the same places which means everyone will be close together at start and slowly fan out from that original place over time. It would take a very long time for eveyone to get spread out to the point where you hardly meet anyone. That's if you don't take groups/clans/guilds into consideration.

If you actually want to be realistic 400bil isn't even enough to express the huge size of the universe. So maybe instead of asking is it too much the question should be. Is it enough?

 

[tooterfish]

Thus do we need so much no.

Who said anything about need?

The costs for a 1 million system galaxy and a 400 billion system galaxy are the same. So why the hell not have the 400 billion one?

 

[SuperG]

400 bil is not even enough.
Unlike the OP stated it does not cost anything more than making let's say a 100.000 star galaxy, that's the beauty of procedural generation.

Cost and need are different discusions.
PCG is all about low cost kwantity to the extreem.
Does not make it a need. That why most games don't use it.

The universe is a vast place bigger than we humans can ever comprehend and what David is doing by adding those 400 bil stars is simply showing people how big that actually is.

People know that any one who games with just 2 stars up to 2 to 5 LY away knows how imense galacy might be. Also the orbital stance between known planets.

The only reason you could have to complain about this amount and vast size is that you wouldn't be able to visit every place in game in your lifetime. But then again you will never visit every single place on earth yet you do not complain about that.

because most people don't need to go every ware. So its common sense to make a open sandbox me for a FPS like farcry 3 not as large as the whole earth. checking out each tree.

The problem here is that people still need to shift their thinking.

No as my awareness of how huge the known visable univers is. How huge galacy can be. The huge spaces between stars but also planet orbits. And even to satelites and moons. I am very interrested in astrophysics and astronomie. And due to that awareness it is by that knowledge not needed.

Back in the days of Elite games had 3 lives and a score, people had to shift their way of thinking about games at that moment too.
Now we simply have to start to accept that there will be games that are bigger then what we were used to and that we won't be able to visit every place and get that 100% stat or rank that says you've done it all.

no I play a lot of open sandbox games and even they are large enough to have huge freedom. Could be much more but doesn't add to much to the game.

But makes jeeps heli and planes to slow for that increase in gameworld to gameplay.

Exploration is always one of those things people would like in a game but it also was quite boring and limited because of the size of most game worlds.

penty of games have opensandbox worlds and I play a lot of those.

As it stands now with that amount of stars exploration becomes almost limitless. Just simply do the math how long it would take you to visit every single place if it just took 1 second. You'll quickly notice that it's so vast that it's extremely unlikely every place will be visited in the next decade.

more case point that we don't need it.

Now you could say 400 bil is too much because people would be spread out and you could hardly meet anyone. But there's a flaw in that way of thinking.
Everyone starts out at the same places which means everyone will be close together at start and slowly fan out from that original place over time. It would take a very long time for eveyone to get spread out to the point where you hardly meet anyone. That's if you don't take groups/clans/guilds into consideration.

mmo mplay s another discusion. Just as starting choice. Other games with te whole galacy choose for dispurse players. Its game design gameplay choice and a implementation detail not so relevant to " Do we need that 400b"

If you actually want to be realistic 400bil isn't even enough to express the huge size of the universe. So maybe instead of asking is it too much the question should be. Is it enough?

I know about huble deep field images. But then agian for educational application as NON GAMES we got Celectia and SpaceEngine and Orbiter etc. This is at first a game. And the proof is to choose for plane in space combat.

Who said anything about need?

The costs for a 1 million system galaxy and a 400 billion system galaxy are the same. So why the hell not have the 400 billion one?

Who? me!

ME

Me say do space games need that much.

Need is a discussion.

And Cost! A other one discussion.

Then in context of Elite dangerous. No.

Context of space sim genre.

In contex game development.

Gameplay mechanics and use cases.

And I have a huge problem of those hypcretic Elite extemist with there realistic scale of galacy but for combat space plane combat is oke.

I have no problem with a arcady fake jetplane in space game nor a 400bilion galacy in the same game.

This contrast of arcady and realistic backdrop is killing emersion.

Do me want it? Oh Yes

 

[Bounder]

There are 7 billion people on the world. Assuming that you will never manage to have a conversation with every single one (which would require more time than you have and also require you to learn all languages in existence or hiring skilled interpreters for years which would cost you more than just a single fortune) this world must be a pretty horrible place for you...

True, i wake up screaming most nights..

Still, no time to stop, spent all day climbing cliffs and diving into the Med, tomorrow i'm Hardcore raving in Lloret de Mar, then Sunday flying back to London to link up with old friends, so yep, frantic, if horridly futile...

 

[Bounder]

In do not think you understand. Your comparison are very wrong.

I give it a try to mimic that to personal space. You have a house like a living boat docked at a someting like "oil"Rig at coast line. but without oil and lower from swiming distance from a large island. The space craft ( livingboat ) to orbital space station ( coast rig ) to prime planet. ( huge island )

That island ( planet ) is in de goldilock zone. Nice climate but is group of island. Maby a neighbure with olso a doable climate, but the coast rig is from swimming distance. The next ( planet ) as island not so, its far and need at least a rowboat. Also those island are big, in the other direction these island get to extreemly cold. Mimic outer planets. As cold islamd. The other direction this goup get hotter to fire island and then on the end a super large super volcano island. The size of contigent like australia. That the star.

Then extreemly far out the nextgroup of islamds with a supervolcano to far to smim to, to far for rowboat to far for speed boat. Needs a very exotic boat like a waterplane. That mimic FTL. Exept this planet full of iland and bilion suer volcnos. Mimics galacy this planet would be the size of rocky planet similar to beetlegeuze star or the much bigger super giants once. And the law of physics are haywire because a rocky water planet that big would colaps in a black hole.

What this means is 400 bil is even not to much. But insanly to much beyound comprehention.
1 bill is way to much as it incompas on averge full planet sized open sandbox worlds. In the bilions.
If 1 promile are of intressed. You could explore each world for year or so. That a milion. And some are colonisation or large society in the 1000. Wich you could explore for many years in the thousand.
A 10 fold of these goldilock planets have ecosystems large with complex flora and fauna which could keep a exobiologs busy for multiple life times. And you got 10000 of those.

But its not 1 bil but 400. So insane huge get more insane huge.

And even if where dwarf galacy of 1 mil stars it would be still mind bogeling huge.
Thus do we need so much no.
It is that milky way is that huge of amount of stars. Andromeda is even bigger.
But there are also dwarf galacy and the sol sector of close 1 mil of stars would be enough even for a exploring centerd space game. Up to 10 mil.

Even if the estimates are way of. Still then its way to much.

Sounds like a killer holiday... are you a travel agent? You should be, i'd book tomorrow..


My (admittedly facetious) point was that visiting everywhere ISN'T the point. In some games it might be, but here the whole purpose of giving you so much more room than you can ever explore is simply unmitigated freedom - to be cast adrift with total unlimited freedom in a realsitically modelled galaxy with hyperdrives. The galaxy and its exploration is a backdrop, not a minigame in its own right. It's an all-you-can-eat buffet, not a last meal.

Personally, i'll only be dissapointed if galactic hyperdrives aren't re-introduced at some point, since, as everyone else has pointed out, modelling additional galaxies costs little if any extra resources, and would really fill the gameworld to its logical conclusion..

 

[Half Giant]

As an alternative to galactic hyper drives groups of explorers could pile into extreme long range ships with hyper sleep chambers or generational ships. Maybe it's a purely mechanical ship that starts with no humans and grows clones only at the end of the trip. It's a one way trip. Also on the ships are the absolute minimum supplies to get a colony started and blue prints for everything from ships and mining lasers to stations. So the group have to mine, scoop and harvest all the supplies to gradually tech up and make a viable colony. There is no way of knowing which part of the other galaxy the ship will hit and exploration would be vital. Other ships have left but they could land on the other side of the galaxy and may never meet up. Some will go rogue or infiltrators could be planted on missions. As well as the mysteries of a new galaxy the other factions are probably sponsoring competing missions. Basically reboot a new galaxy from the start with a group survival element. Spaces are limited so it's perma death and you go to the back of the queue and wait for a space to free up before you can play again but expanding colonies creates more available spaces. The only bit I'm not sure about is why anyone would bother doing it when the Milky Way is so vast. Maybe just because it's there.

 

[SuperG]

Sounds like a killer holiday... are you a travel agent? You should be, i'd book tomorrow..

No, last thing on earth I want to be.

My (admittedly facetious) point was that visiting everywhere ISN'T the point. In some games it might be, but here the whole purpose of giving you so much more room than you can ever explore is simply unmitigated freedom - to be cast adrift with total unlimited freedom in a realsitically modelled galaxy with hyperdrives. The galaxy and its exploration is a backdrop, not a minigame in its own right. It's an all-you-can-eat buffet, not a last meal.

it is huge wast of food. Last meal! Open world offer freedom. No need for unlimitless. Also no last meal I buy wenn I am done with a meal the next day a new different meal. I am not on deadrow.

Personally, i'll only be dissapointed if galactic hyperdrives aren't re-introduced at some point, since, as everyone else has pointed out, modelling additional galaxies costs little if any extra resources, and would really fill the gameworld to its logical conclusion..

No need for but there is reallife but also gameplay mecanic balanse trick to make somthing big small or someting small big.

Its adjust travel speeds.
With apropriat line of sight.

In Scifi you have these races who are faster then the average advanced alien.
In startrek those Borg with there TransWarp.
In stargate SG1 the Asgard.

Zilion planets is still to much. But you could make galacy feel much smaller by making travel solution faster and sensor range huge 100LY.

Like point of interest in lightup in FPS / RPG game in a large Room.

But you could spot them at many LY.

If focus is heavy on exploring there would be ship classes or engines to support this and a very long range sensor package.

A gamer with afinnity to exobiologic could explore or that way faster. Just like exo planet safari and exo safary hunters.
While others go for artifacts.
And others or derelic ship salvaging.
Specialised vessels like a salvage deepspace carrier

There could be a FTL solution less economical for short jumps but more economical by speed and feul efficency but at a cost.

You could have up to 4 kinds of FTL. One for sub FTL aoround the barrier like supercruze. Jump drives to hop from star to star. Hyperspace best cost feul but also space ratio and warp drives which could be huge but much more economical fr long range. And sensors usable under FTL traveling. While others run on fusion based solution is warp drive far morevpowerfull antimatter feuled stardrive.
Stargates could be in some regions of save space with similarity to tol roads.

Such vessel have FTL drives for deep space and large warehouse so balansed for long deepspace missions. Lot of surface and space used for the most advance sensory and radar. Weaponaty limited to defensive focus.

A small version would be a deepspace scout vessel. Still large at least cutter class. Much smaller a patrol craft.

Because in reallife there is a saying. Airplanes make the world small.

It's even posible to make multiple galacy reachable but this worlds if tavel solutions and far sight are in sync with game universe o that also the point of interrest denity is nice fit.

So dead content is far less and top notch procedural variants stands out due to the large sighting of sensory. Dull sectors very fast excluded and skipped.

To make one star system ultimale large like Sol, is to have the C barrier and max impulse up to 1/10th of C. No gamer would go for 50 year in a direction.
And no speedup of time. Or stasis tricks.

A comparing to FPS games is you make stars like they where trees and world are bushes on the ground. Some times there is something in or between the bushes and or tree.

 

[Daeron]

Agoraphobia is not exactly a common problem with video games. I guess they had to run out of corridors sooner or later. Just because statistically speaking, something odd happens now and then. Like a mutated Emperor, or too much space in a space game. What have the world come to...

 

[MarcusAurelius]

I still don't see why people can't get past this egocentric view of the galaxy. Its not 400 billion stars because we should be able to visit them all. Its to simulate the vastness of "REAL" space. This is what DB strives for since Elite 2 and Elite 3, why would he suddenly switch that off in Elite 4?

People will always be trying to visit as many stars as possible. It was already mentioned that in the golden days of EVE many systems were undiscovered and great friendships and adventures were forged in the fringes of space. This pioneering spirit dwindled once all 7000 plus systems were discovered by countless EVE players. Fast forward 10 years and EVE is but a shadow of its former self. No more undiscovered territory, no more adventuring with friends. Had EVE of released with 100,000 stars or 1 million. Eventually it would of ran out too. And its not that many of the stars would be visited by the one person. Its that multitudes of people are all concurrently expanding the sphere of chartered systems weekly.

Eventually if ED set the upper limit to 10 million or so, even if it took 10 years it would get discovered. For instance how many stars do you think 1 million members could reach in 10 years. How about 10 million members. What if ED is a runaway successful on PS4 or XboxOne. How many stars would say 50 million console owners discover in 5 years?

400 billion stars might seem like a huge number. And it is, but don't underestimate human motivation, this is also a kind of social experiment too thats never been undertaken before.

Anyone ever remember the Curiosity cube?

Half a million people plugging away at their devices trying to uncover 64 billion blocks. Just for the sake of seeing if it was possible and the allure of being the first and only one to see the center.

So why would people even attempt to visit worlds never before seen or visited before if there is no way they can ever reach them all. Well why do people do anything these days? One thing is for sure, it won't stop people from trying. And I am sure DB is well aware of this. ED is here for the long haul. Who knows your grandkids might still be playing ED in its 100th iteration and still be discovering systems never before discovered. It's an interesting exercise unto itself, if ever there will be a time when all the stars do get discovered and visited. Not to mention the trillions of planets, moons and asteroids.