Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

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LOL

"I don't have the time to play the game like you do, therefore please dumb it down for me and remove obstacles"

Ahaha, this is glorious, thank you for finally admiting what we all already knew.

And make no mistake, when you say that, you are speaking FOR ALL the "PvE open" supporters, because that exactly is the true agenda, which as I said, all of us already knew

You're really good at reading things in that aren't.there to suit your position, aren't you? When did i claim to speak for anyone? Or ask for it to be.dumbed down? I don't.have the time to play with engineers or to take JB up on his offer, that's not a huge issue, but it's a shame I can't take him up on his offer.

Do calm down, you'll need another tissue soon otherwise.

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Not directed at me, but I concur. Yes, starting out is going to be a lot harder for the little guy in the sidey...I assume. I haven't tried it in a long time. Not impossible, though. I don't believe that for a second. And "I'm a forum dad with severe time constraints" isn't going to cut it twice in the same thread my friend:)

No, not impossible. Difficult, requires significant time, but not impossible. So to recap the op claims that 90% of gank victims could escape if only they would do this difficult, time consuming thing first. Does that sum it up?

*waiting*
 
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You're really good at reading things in that aren't.there to suit your position, aren't you? When did i claim to speak for anyone? Or ask for it to be.dumbed down? I don't.have the time to play with engineers or to take JB up on his offer, that's not a huge issue, but it's a shame I can't take him up on his offer.

Do calm down, you'll need another tissue soon otherwise.

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No, not impossible. Difficult, requires significant time, but not impossible. So to recap the op claims that 90% of gank victims could escape if only they would do this difficult, time consuming thing first. Does that sum it up?

*waiting*

Sure, Sandmann. It would help a lot. You're playing a game that requires a lot of time investment from the player to "get ahead." It might be wise for that player to spend a bit of that time learning how to properly defend themselves and gather the appropriate tools. I'm not saying it's easy.
 
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Sure, Sandmann. It would help a lot. You're playing a game that requires a lot of time investment from the player to "get ahead." It might be wise for that player to spend a bit of that time learning how to properly defend themselves and gather the appropriate tools.

Sure, varied skill set, all good. I don't have the time to dedicate to it anymore, but that's strictly my problem and not something i'm complaining about. My point was - and always has been - that the OPs offhand remark that 90% of victims could get away "if only" was trivialising the degree of effort required to meet the preconditions and amounted to victim blaming to justify ganking and PKing and paint those complaining about it as "whining".

In fact this whole thread could be described as inflammatory and intended to demean the large group of people who are obviously dissatisfied with the current situation vis a vis pvp/pve.
 
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Sure, varied skill set, all good. I don't have the time to dedicate to it anymore, but that's strictly my problem and not something i'm complaining about. My point was - and always has been - that the OPs offhand remark that 90% of victims could get away "if only" was trivialising the degree of effort required to meet the preconditions and amounted to victim blaming to justify ganking and PKing and paint those complaining about it as "whining".

In fact this whole thread could be described as inflammatory and intended to demean the large group of people who are obviously dissatisfied with the current situation vis a vis pvp/pve.

I'm not taking any relish in being inflamatory here, but MassiveD was correct in the sense that he opined that the majority of PvEers do not take enough of an active role in their own survival, and instead resort to demeaning PvPers on the forum instead of working on their skillz. I don't want to carry on MassiveD's fight here, just going on record as agreeing with many of his points. Obviously, anybody who knows me knows that I never make the mistake of taking things too personally on the forum. I do feel friendly towards you, even if you do think I'm a ganker:)
 
Ok... it's my contention that to get to the point of engineerig the uber T6, it's going to be a lot easier if you have already gone through a combat "career path", got your billions in the bank and your fully engineered PvP ship and so on than if you have started at a sidewinder and worked your way up through a trader career path as far as a T6.

Would you concur?

Well, not really. Mostly that noone gets to get their billions through combat: I've got over 6000 bounties, plus the combat bonds and assassinations, and that got me a whopping 150m in two years. :p Having a PvP ship wont really help much when engineering, thats why you suddenly saw well-known 'griefers' hopping about in non pvp ships whenever a major update arrives and blueprints are added or changed. So its not about being a combat pilot. I do, however, agree that an experienced player, whether combat, trader or whatever, would have it MUCH easier than a new player. I'll go one step further and admit I doubt a real new player working to a T6 will have even the slightest notion of what to do or how to do it when it comes to engineering. You need to know how all the basic modules work together, why certain combinations work better, what recipes exists, what to do with what build you have, which resources you need, how to get them, which engineers offer those rewards etc. Building an Uber-T6 is what the Space Billionaires do, its not what new/casual players do. Just like I just spend weeks making insane Sidewinder, Eagle and Viper builds (with kits and skins, har!) but no sane new player would do that.

The whole 'you can mod your ship' is an argument that is valid against you and other long-time players. Its not against new players, who dont have the slighest chance. A new player also has no chance of having the needed skills, it just takes more time get it ingrained. So when a new player meets a griefer, he is 100% dead unless the griefer is drunk. And even that its 99%. IMHO its not much of an issue, espescially the last year or so, (Open really is quite friendly, and the few real griefers tend to be at more 'griefing' places such as engineer bases where you can lose your modular terminals rather than a sidey rebuy) but if a bunch of people would set out to troll new players they certainly could. Which is something to think about...
 
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I'm not taking any relish in being inflamatory here, but MassiveD was correct in the sense that he opined that the majority of PvEers do not take enough of an active role in their own survival, and instead resort to demeaning PvPers on the forum instead of working on their skillz. I don't want to carry on MassiveD's fight here, just going on record as agreeing with many of his points. Obviously, anybody who knows me knows that I never make the mistake of taking things too personally on the forum. I do feel friendly towards you, even if you do think I'm a ganker:)

I don't think I offered an opinion on your playstyle. I believe (despite his protestations) that the OP is a ganker, or at least an apologist for them, but I don't really have any opinion about you... other than that you were kind enough to offer to help me learn earlier.

I'd actually agree with your summation that many players don't learn to play as well as they should. I'm probably one of them, but that's why I play in mobius. That however does not excuse ganking, nor does it imply that the current level of concern re pvp/pve is without merit, as the OP was implying. Neither does it excuse the insulting victim blaming he engaged in, to which I took offense, nor the many insults he made toward me in here for having the temerity to disagree with him.

Anyhow I've just finished a 12 hour night shift, my wife's annoyed at me, and I need to sleep so I'll bid you adeiu.
 
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Why wouldn't a player want to increase their skills?

Because such game play for me is not fun. I don't want to be a uber-combat pilot, just good enough to get me out of the occasional trouble I get into. Nor do I want to be the game's best explorer, nor arch-bounty hunter and so on and so on. I'm happy to restrict the skills I have to the ones I need and then only to just above the level I mostly require them.

Which I why I'm still flying a stock iCutter.

But, there again, I only play in Solo...
 
If only FD had introduced handbags as the weapon of choice. Think of the videos that would have been made!

Not fabulous enough, lipsticks please.

I think this is a solution to both suggestions:
maxresdefault.jpg
 
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So a one sided poll was closed. Who knew?

This game isnt Call of Duty and there is no leaderboard for being the best/worst PVP player killer out their. Since that functionality isnt in the game and likely never will be, one very small specific crowd of people take up the torch and try and force it down the throats of everyone else. Seems like only one side of this argument is trying to bully their way into making a space sim game into a moronic FPS.

If you cant see that, then its your fault. Natural selection was stated as a means to an end by some. As if natural selection means aggression and territorial survival have anything to do with a artificial environment. A sad transparent attempt at puffing up ones ego while trying to push a fruitless agenda. This isnt a campaign and you dont need a catch phrase because you have nothing to win.

One group of people see the potential of this game as a whole. A game that takes place in a Science Fiction Universe where anything can and will happen. The other side wants to minimize that view by ensuring that this entire game universe boils down to wanton destruction with no consequences. They want to the game to be dumbed down to its core essence and turn it into the next ESport wannabe game. They must feel special, needed, and relevant regardless to environment or medium.

In a game as large as our Galaxy its impossible for an individual to get any kind of notoriety unless they do something monumental and helpful or something that breaks the entire games sense of immersion. Because it takes way less intelligence and effort to disrupt and interfere than to contribute meaningfully, a tiny portion of the community who feels the need to be special snowflakes has created a rift between the two opposing factions of players.

The reason why they do this is that they are attempting to take advantage of the short sightedness of each side of the argument. As every one knows in ED PVP is so important that you must win even when not playing the game. The forums are a great place to win PVP battles as well.

The PVP griefing crowd want this game to be a glorified TF2 CSGo esport where notoriety wins the day. The PVE crowd wants the PVP players to go away because they do nothing but destroy any sense of escapism or immersion into this games universe.

Neither side is wavering in their argument and only one of them would increase the player base and variety in the game. The PVE crowd knows this and are unwavering on their stance.

What most everyone elses wants is this narrow minded focus on the PVP or PVE aspect of the game to go away. This game was never designed around balance and or fair play. If it had been, then there would be almost no weapon or ship choices to choose from. The PVP crowd and the PVE crowd will need to make some concessions to see this game move forward.

The PVP/Griefing crowd will just have to accept the fact their chosen game style comes with extreme consequences as it does in real life. If you rob, steal, and murder people in the real world, then you yourself eventually will have your own life or livelihood stolen. Death or impoverishment/prison are the only options.

You dont see modern Pirates running around the oceans in Aircraft carriers, yet people are expected to ignore that fact. So to be a criminal/criminal organization, you must be willing to accept that at any time during your play through that you will eventually lose a fight and when you do you start over. There is no insurance, There is no Credit balance, there is nothing. You turned your back on the in game society so society will not help you in any way. No landing at star ports or planetary installations of faction held and non criminal organizations. No repairs and no pod pick up when your ship is destroyed. When you die outside of the law and order of the game universe, then that is where you will stay. You can either start over or quit.

The PVE crowd will need to accept that this game isnt purely about your experience. They will also need to accept that PVP can happen, but they can also rest assured that either retribution, or safety will always be available to them. They will need to stick to secured systems or be willing to pay the price of a rebuy/mission loss.

Power play cannot be part of this either. Whatever happens in Power Play can remain there and the consequences remain the same.
However to leave enough content for each crowd to have an in game lively hood, all of the above listed consequences must remain between players and not NPCs in any way. If the NPC combat missions were taken away then a large swath of an already very limited missions system would be made obsolete.

Once FDEV finally come to that decision, if they ever do, then neither side can complain. Griefers have to be willing to start over constantly in order to maintain their chosen game style, and PVE players must be will to accept the chance at a negative player encounter.
 
I believe (despite his protestations) that the OP is a ganker

I am your typical ganker. Wear the badge with dignity. Yep. Pirate, racketeer, killer of men, scum of the Earth. Also, I was defending people from pirates (got under influence of some righteous types), fought for independence, explored and traded, but that wasn't as eventful, less honourable and more time consuming, so I quit these for good. Wanted in 33 systems and just as ugly as my less notorious colleague from Star Wars IV movie. Even pirates wish to kill me, but not one succeeded yet. I like flying a Viper. I played ED from the very beginning until I realised the flaws of the game, despite it's many, many, many bright sides, don't make it an actual game, but something more akin to MS Flight Simulator 2010, which I love as much, by the way. Played the originals too, just as you did, I'll venture a guess. I do play still but very rarely, mostly to impress some people that I know with the technological masterpiece, which Elite is, on a huge monitor with X52, amplified beyond sanity with gigantic speakers.

Now, it is my observation that developers create facilities for players to interact with each other and the "soulless" world around them. The philosophy, which lies at the foundation, defines the game's cross section of buyers, reinforced with advertising and ongoing discussion. Lets have a look at the name, shall we: "Elite Dangerous, blaze your trail through a cutthroat galaxy". More or less accurate, wouldn't you say? Developers, in their eternal wisdom, created safe havens, called solo & private groups. Now, the real villain here (villain according to you) is FD, who invited the crowd of people, like me, to buy the game, which was supposed to be made for people like me, you and us, according to advertising and past experiences.

Alright, we are getting to the culmination. While they made a Mobius game (for you) very re-playable, they postponed creation of a game for me and us indefinitely. Well, I don't blame them. The graphical fidelity alone and the scope of the whole thing is so mind-boggling, I am really surprised FD made it that far without imploding. It is astonishing what a conspiracy between a couple hundred programmers can create in a couple of years of hard work.

The game will be an ever-living classic, no doubt about it, with a few thousand fanatic followers, small, perhaps, but it will live forever. That's cool. But what would revitalise the game, make it bigger, what would make it a game for us to play as sheep, wolves, shepherds, heroes, villains, ordinary haulers.. together, attract a constant flow of people and not hide in our corners? (Unless we really want to once in a while) My thought process and that of some other people echoing this idea around forum is that the game needs something to live and die for. I like to call it economy. Tangible resources. Where there is economy, politics is conjured up, to influence said economy and be influenced by it in return. These concepts sound difficult, perhaps, but they aren't. Ownership gives motivation. Fighting for the common cause with resources in the background, perhaps, gives motivation. But there have to be pigeons to count in in the first place in order for motivation to persist and evolve. Otherwise it's a flight simulator with one-off bells and whistles which wears off pretty fast, except for people like me, the SCI-FI fans. Gathering of resources, building colonies, wars, trade wars, alliances, politics and Cpt. Reynolds, being part of the same economy, giving them all the finger. Even in a simple form this can be created, perhaps the community will rise to the challenge and help FD accomplish that FOR FREE, who knows? They only have to ask. Suddenly, reasons may appear for sheep to cooperate with wolves and protect them from other packs for the common good. Before that happens the mere and mindless pew-pew will remain, as a mark of game's infancy. Yes, the task may be hard, even impossible. But so is creating a g 1:1 copy of the Milky-Way. The latter, in fact, sounds simpler.

That's what I'd like to see, but will likely not, still I am content they let me hunt people. The most enthralling endeavour of them all, according to some wise guy I forgot who exactly. People doing what they do, do it for fun and 'cause there's nothing better to do. And who are you to judge other's fun? A wise reptile from Nibiru? Probably another random guy with a keyboard and opinion. People can be anyone they want in Elite'verse, within obvious limits described in the manual, so take you anti-ganker-preaching to a kindergarten session, brother. The sandbox has been drawn, the world lives despite your wants and needs, too late to fight the consequences of FD game design. And futile. It's better to start coming up with future ideology or shut up and enjoy what's there.

P.S. I am glad they named the thread this. Very wise, OP. :D
 
I'm not taking any relish in being inflamatory here, but MassiveD was correct in the sense that he opined that the majority of PvEers do not take enough of an active role in their own survival, and instead resort to demeaning PvPers on the forum instead of working on their skillz. I don't want to carry on MassiveD's fight here, just going on record as agreeing with many of his points. Obviously, anybody who knows me knows that I never make the mistake of taking things too personally on the forum. I do feel friendly towards you, even if you do think I'm a ganker:)

No amount of skillz is going to help a trader or explorer against a tooled up PVP ship.
 
I'm not taking any relish in being inflamatory here, but MassiveD was correct in the sense that he opined that the majority of PvEers do not take enough of an active role in their own survival, and instead resort to demeaning PvPers on the forum instead of working on their skillz. I don't want to carry on MassiveD's fight here, just going on record as agreeing with many of his points. Obviously, anybody who knows me knows that I never make the mistake of taking things too personally on the forum. I do feel friendly towards you, even if you do think I'm a ganker:)

This might not be demeaning but saying PvE players don't take an active role in their own survival might be one of the most rediculous things I've ever heard.

Do you think PvE players blow up every time they enter combat with other ships?

PvE and PvP are play styles. They have nothing to do with taking an active interest in ones own game survival. The only people who seem to be demeaning PvP players are the PvP players posting personal ludicrous opinions. Then claiming that they don't take things personally. Lol...
 
A 'skilled' trader in this sense would be someone who has a heavily defended trader (less cargo space) and goes to less popular trading locations (worse profit per ton) and perhaps aproaches things from safer directions (longer travel times).

All of these things lower profit per time. Thus the smart trader just plays solo while trading to maximize profits. Now, if there were open only trading mechanics that allowed for all the above things to still turn over higher profits than a dedicated solo trader, you would see people trading in open.

Its perfectly possible to do all pve activities in such a way that you are relatively safe in open, the issue is that its less profitable than doing the same things solo because part of the 'smart' way to play a non combat build is in knowing how to avoid combat, and that inevitably costs you something in terms of efficiency.
 
I am your typical ganker. Wear the badge with dignity. Yep. Pirate, racketeer, killer of men, scum of the Earth. Also, I was defending people from pirates (got under influence of some righteous types), fought for independence, explored and traded, but that wasn't as eventful, less honourable and more time consuming, so I quit these for good. Wanted in 33 systems and just as ugly as my less notorious colleague from Star Wars IV movie. Even pirates wish to kill me, but not one succeeded yet. I like flying a Viper. I played ED from the very beginning until I realised the flaws of the game, despite it's many, many, many bright sides, don't make it an actual game, but something more akin to MS Flight Simulator 2010, which I love as much, by the way. Played the originals too, just as you did, I'll venture a guess. I do play still but very rarely, mostly to impress some people that I know with the technological masterpiece, which Elite is, on a huge monitor with X52, amplified beyond sanity with gigantic speakers.

Now, it is my observation that developers create facilities for players to interact with each other and the "soulless" world around them. The philosophy, which lies at the foundation, defines the game's cross section of buyers, reinforced with advertising and ongoing discussion. Lets have a look at the name, shall we: "Elite Dangerous, blaze your trail through a cutthroat galaxy". More or less accurate, wouldn't you say? Developers, in their eternal wisdom, created safe havens, called solo & private groups. Now, the real villain here (villain according to you) is FD, who invited the crowd of people, like me, to buy the game, which was supposed to be made for people like me, you and us, according to advertising and past experiences.

Alright, we are getting to the culmination. While they made a Mobius game (for you) very re-playable, they postponed creation of a game for me and us indefinitely. Well, I don't blame them. The graphical fidelity alone and the scope of the whole thing is so mind-boggling, I am really surprised FD made it that far without imploding. It is astonishing what a conspiracy between a couple hundred programmers can create in a couple of years of hard work.

The game will be an ever-living classic, no doubt about it, with a few thousand fanatic followers, small, perhaps, but it will live forever. That's cool. But what would revitalise the game, make it bigger, what would make it a game for us to play as sheep, wolves, shepherds, heroes, villains, ordinary haulers.. together, attract a constant flow of people and not hide in our corners? (Unless we really want to once in a while) My thought process and that of some other people echoing this idea around forum is that the game needs something to live and die for. I like to call it economy. Tangible resources. Where there is economy, politics is conjured up, to influence said economy and be influenced by it in return. These concepts sound difficult, perhaps, but they aren't. Ownership gives motivation. Fighting for the common cause with resources in the background, perhaps, gives motivation. But there have to be pigeons to count in in the first place in order for motivation to persist and evolve. Otherwise it's a flight simulator with one-off bells and whistles which wears off pretty fast, except for people like me, the SCI-FI fans. Gathering of resources, building colonies, wars, trade wars, alliances, politics and Cpt. Reynolds, being part of the same economy, giving them all the finger. Even in a simple form this can be created, perhaps the community will rise to the challenge and help FD accomplish that FOR FREE, who knows? They only have to ask. Suddenly, reasons may appear for sheep to cooperate with wolves and protect them from other packs for the common good. Before that happens the mere and mindless pew-pew will remain, as a mark of game's infancy. Yes, the task may be hard, even impossible. But so is creating a g 1:1 copy of the Milky-Way. The latter, in fact, sounds simpler.

That's what I'd like to see, but will likely not, still I am content they let me hunt people. The most enthralling endeavour of them all, according to some wise guy I forgot who exactly. People doing what they do, do it for fun and 'cause there's nothing better to do. And who are you to judge other's fun? A wise reptile from Nibiru? Probably another random guy with a keyboard and opinion. People can be anyone they want in Elite'verse, within obvious limits described in the manual, so take you anti-ganker-preaching to a kindergarten session, brother. The sandbox has been drawn, the world lives despite your wants and needs, too late to fight the consequences of FD game design. And futile. It's better to start coming up with future ideology or shut up and enjoy what's there.

P.S. I am glad they named the thread this. Very wise, OP. :D

Wall of text, needs a tl;dr. Glad you're enjoying ganking, also glad we'll never meet in game.
 
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A 'skilled' trader in this sense would be someone who has a heavily defended trader (less cargo space) and goes to less popular trading locations (worse profit per ton) and perhaps aproaches things from safer directions (longer travel times).

All of these things lower profit per time. Thus the smart trader just plays solo while trading to maximize profits. Now, if there were open only trading mechanics that allowed for all the above things to still turn over higher profits than a dedicated solo trader, you would see people trading in open.

Its perfectly possible to do all pve activities in such a way that you are relatively safe in open, the issue is that its less profitable than doing the same things solo because part of the 'smart' way to play a non combat build is in knowing how to avoid combat, and that inevitably costs you something in terms of efficiency.

Or the "skilled" trader is just not interested in confrontational mechanics with other players. Trading like nearly everything in this game is a Solo activity after all.

The thing that seems not to get through to some people (usually the pro-PvP crowd) is that there are people who choose not to want to play a PvP game. And they want the freedom to play such a game in any part of the game universe. For various reasons such as enjoyment.

They can't seem to figure this very simple thing out. Yet they want to know why is it that others don't seem to enjoy playing the game the way they do and keep looking for answers from people who just enjoy playing the game the way they do. Some English classroom research paper with convoluted superficial anecdotes, quoting renowned names in the acedemic field with fully understanding the quotes or the context in which the quotes apply, just to muddle the issue further and promote their own feeling of importance in the conversation. :sigh:
 
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