Frontier. Please make a PVE mode to this game.

[Ian Skippy]

I can't speak for anybody else, but what I expect from a C&P system is a system that makes unwarranted player killing (and potentially NPC killing) incredibly punitive

Wont happen. I'll repeat: wont happen. Many PvE traders and such think that the purpose of C&P is to deal with griefers. It is not. The purpose is to flesh out the universe and make it more sane and in line with their vision. There will not, never, never ever, be a C&P system that protects poor traders really well against murderers. The punishments considered are 'locking acces to startports' up to 'all fed/imp/alliance' ports for example. That still makes it very much possible to work from anarchy/independent systems and 'raid' other systems. There will not be a fleet of dozens of corvettes spawning at the first shot. There will be no endless 8-wing FDLs stalking murderers. You know why? Because being a Very Evil Person is a very accepted role in the universe. They want to make it more punitive because its currently rather silly, but thats it. Once C&P is more fleshed out my 2nd account will go full rogue and terrrorise Imperial space.

Space is dangerous in Elite. That will never change.

 

[MarkAusten]

Ah, so its ED socks that will make Mobius the majority. Fair enough, we dont know the exact number. We do know that 30k is in Mobius. To make that a majority Ed cannot have sold more than 60k copies. We know Steam alone has 900k or so. Even if every single purchase in the Frontier store are socks and such, that still leaves Mobius at 3-4% or so. I am sure we can work on some of the other variables to maybe get it to 6%. But you really cannot seriously admit that this clearly points to a minority.

Socks or DBOBE Bobbleheads!

However, I never claimed that it was anything but a minority, I just questioned the statistics. And I agree that in order for there to be a majority of players not doing PvP as we are told then there are a heck of a lot somewhere not saying anything, possibly not even belonging to this or any other forum.

I would love the see the raw data!

 

[frostypaw]

Ah, so its ED socks that will make Mobius the majority. Fair enough, we dont know the exact number. We do know that 30k is in Mobius. To make that a majority Ed cannot have sold more than 60k copies. We know Steam alone has 900k or so. Even if every single purchase in the Frontier store are socks and such, that still leaves Mobius at 3-4% or so. I am sure we can work on some of the other variables to maybe get it to 6%. But you really cannot seriously admit that this clearly points to a minority.

Can we quit with the Mobius-represents-the-PvE-community nonsense?

I'd wager most players have never even heard of it. That so many have managed to hunt it down means more than the actual numbers. There are vast numbers of players in solo and in other PG's alongside other vast numbers of players in Open who simply don't encounter the anti-social cmdrs due to playstyle and location/timings. This is a silly argument. The proportions are fairly well established are they not?

 

[jasonbarron]

Wont happen. I'll repeat: wont happen. Many PvE traders and such think that the purpose of C&P is to deal with griefers. It is not. The purpose is to flesh out the universe and make it more sane and in line with their vision. There will not, never, never ever, be a C&P system that protects poor traders really well against murderers. The punishments considered are 'locking acces to startports' up to 'all fed/imp/alliance' ports for example. That still makes it very much possible to work from anarchy/independent systems and 'raid' other systems. There will not be a fleet of dozens of corvettes spawning at the first shot. There will be no endless 8-wing FDLs stalking murderers. You know why? Because being a Very Evil Person is a very accepted role in the universe. They want to make it more punitive because its currently rather silly, but thats it. Once C&P is more fleshed out my 2nd account will go full rogue and terrrorise Imperial space.

Space is dangerous in Elite. That will never change.

sleutelbos, I'm starting to develop a mancrush on you. How did you get so full of awesome???

 

[MarkAusten]

Wont happen. I'll repeat: wont happen. Many PvE traders and such think that the purpose of C&P is to deal with griefers. It is not. The purpose is to flesh out the universe and make it more sane and in line with their vision. There will not, never, never ever, be a C&P system that protects poor traders really well against murderers. The punishments considered are 'locking acces to startports' up to 'all fed/imp/alliance' ports for example. That still makes it very much possible to work from anarchy/independent systems and 'raid' other systems. There will not be a fleet of dozens of corvettes spawning at the first shot. There will be no endless 8-wing FDLs stalking murderers. You know why? Because being a Very Evil Person is a very accepted role in the universe. They want to make it more punitive because its currently rather silly, but thats it. Once C&P is more fleshed out my 2nd account will go full rogue and terrrorise Imperial space.

Space is dangerous in Elite. That will never change.

Lots of good points.

Personally, I'd love to see a good C&P system in the Elite universe.


Are you going to post videos of the 2nd account rampage?

 

[Andrew Gaspurr]

I like the idea of 'raiding' from a base of operations outside of 'governed' space. FD should build on that, many great books, movies and TV series started that way. It's a little bit more authentic than wreaking havoc inside civilized space that has been patrolled for hundreds of years without having to change places frequently.

I see many a CG prospects here

 

[MarkAusten]

sleutelbos, I'm starting to develop a mancrush on you. How did you get so full of awesome???

Gentlemen, please! Do we have to get out the buckets of cold water?

 

[Littlerift]

Wont happen. I'll repeat: wont happen. Many PvE traders and such think that the purpose of C&P is to deal with griefers. It is not. The purpose is to flesh out the universe and make it more sane and in line with their vision. There will not, never, never ever, be a C&P system that protects poor traders really well against murderers. The punishments considered are 'locking acces to startports' up to 'all fed/imp/alliance' ports for example. That still makes it very much possible to work from anarchy/independent systems and 'raid' other systems. There will not be a fleet of dozens of corvettes spawning at the first shot. There will be no endless 8-wing FDLs stalking murderers. You know why? Because being a Very Evil Person is a very accepted role in the universe. They want to make it more punitive because its currently rather silly, but thats it. Once C&P is more fleshed out my 2nd account will go full rogue and terrrorise Imperial space.

Space is dangerous in Elite. That will never change.

I don't want it to protect traders, I want it to be harsh on crime as a justice system should be. I'm not asking for Security forces to gank pirates upon arrival in a system, or to rush to the aid of traders who are interdicted, I just want murder to be met with serious fines and bounties (multiple millions for a player kill), I want stations to ban you from access if you're hated by or wanted by the faction that controls them, etc). If the care-bear pirates and griefers can't handle that then that's their issue, I just want to be able to play as a privateer and feel like there's actually some risk, because currently there isn't - if you kill a player while pirating them then so long as you salvage 6000 credits of cargo from them then you make money and suffer no consequence even if you go to the nearest station and say "Yup, I'm a murderer and a thief." It's absurd.

It's not about removing or lessening the danger for traders, it's about increasing the danger for pirates and murderers after they've committed the crime.

 

[MarkAusten]

Can we quit with the Mobius-represents-the-PvE-community nonsense?

I'd wager most players have never even heard of it. That so many have managed to hunt it down means more than the actual numbers. There are vast numbers of players in solo and in other PG's alongside other vast numbers of players in Open who simply don't encounter the anti-social cmdrs due to playstyle and location/timings. This is a silly argument. The proportions are fairly well established are they not?

Er, I think you missed the point. It wasn't anything to do with Mobius represent the PvE community, more what portion of the majority of the player base the Mobius membership represents.

Sorry you got confused there.

And no, the proportions are not well established unfortunately. We have hints and suggestions but that's about it.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

That s because pvpers doesn't t look for a fair fight

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. They do look for fair fights, with 4v4's being the most fun things possible in the game.

They only Hunt for the new meta to get the best possible advantage and making the combat unfair toward the prey

Is it wrong to upgrade your favourite ship to make it as powerful as possible? And not everyone follows the meta either. Of course, you'd actually have to play in open to know that this is the case (listening to the fictional horror stories on the official forums doesn't count)

the pvpers are always in cutter conda or fdl until the new meta

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. The Anaconda isn't a meta ship.
Would it surprise you to learn that some players choose non-meta ships because of the fun factor? I've seen quite a few vultures, dropships, couriers, vipers and gunships in PvP lately.
Here, I'll even give you some videos to show you what people actually do:

[video=youtube;N_Hi3dsddV0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Hi3dsddV0[/video]
[video=youtube;NcpLgznJ35o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcpLgznJ35o[/video]
[video=youtube;aixJMURrKUM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aixJMURrKUM[/video]
[video=youtube;YgfoTXGSyC8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgfoTXGSyC8[/video]
[video=youtube;mqkuZhzuo7A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqkuZhzuo7A[/video]
[video=youtube;Oyo41lCovpU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyo41lCovpU[/video]

Hell, even eagles
[video=youtube;WxkLBYYg0Zk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxkLBYYg0Zk[/video]

Pays to know a bit about what you're talking about before you go off posting on the forums.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. They do look for fair fights, with 4v4's being the most fun things possible in the game.

.... then why are there so many complaints of ganking on the forums?

(not disputing that some PvP players seek challenging opposition, of course)

 

[Littlerift]

.... then why are there so many complaints of ganking on the forums?

(not disputing that some PvP players seek challenging opposition, of course)

And why do PvP players care if all of those who don't want to engage in PvP leave to go to Solo or Open PvE?

 

[Ian Skippy]

sleutelbos, I'm starting to develop a mancrush on you. How did you get so full of awesome???

Believe it or not, but its probably the beard I have started to cultivate. Then again, it could be that everything that covers my face works, dont have the stats on it.

Socks or DBOBE Bobbleheads!

However, I never claimed that it was anything but a minority, I just questioned the statistics. And I agree that in order for there to be a majority of players not doing PvP as we are told then there are a heck of a lot somewhere not saying anything, possibly not even belonging to this or any other forum.

I would love the see the raw data!

Oh, sure, there is a wide margin of error. The discussion of PvE versus PvP is silly ayway. IMHO (warning: no stats at all!) there are four groups of cmdrs:

1) Solo. For people with no interest in multiplay at all, or no connection good enough. I suspect this is actually of the four groups the largest.
2) PvP. People who primarily PvP, and PvE only to support it. I suspect this is the smallst group.
3) Strictly MP-PvE. People who want a PvE mode, disabled hitboxed, 'overseers' making sure there is no foul play, automatic compensation etc etc.
4) General MP. People who dont do PvP (much) but do want the option of PvP.

My point is that 4) is larger than 3), and that 1)+2)+4)+ is FAR larger than 3).

Are you going to post videos of the 2nd account rampage?

Hopefully, but I am not sure if my potato can run it. I'm on an athlon II X4 with 6GB ram.

 

[Dane Barclay]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. They do look for fair fights, with 4v4's being the most fun things possible in the game.

Rubbish. That was not my experience with some of your lot in Mobius and no, I did not log but exploded. Hypocrisy at its finest. Don't bother trying to justify it because I won't rise to it.

 

[Ian Skippy]

.... then why are there so many complaints of ganking on the forums?

(not disputing that some PvP players seek challenging opposition, of course)

How many 'complaints of ganking' do we have every week, and how many are from people ganked themselves, rather than complaints about stories they've heared? And how 'many' is that relative to the player base. A hundred of a percent? Less?

 

[Littlerift]

How many 'complaints of ganking' do we have every week, and how many are from people ganked themselves, rather than complaints about stories they've heared? And how 'many' is that relative to the player base. A hundred of a percent? Less?

You said yourself that the forums are too small a percentage of the player-base to draw accurate conclusions on the incidence of specific events and playstyles.

 

[VR Lucian Arkright]

And why do PvP players care if all of those who don't want to engage in PvP leave to go to Solo or Open PvE?

This is the bit I still struggle with - none of those videos required a PVE oriented player...

 

[Robert Maynard]

How many 'complaints of ganking' do we have every week, and how many are from people ganked themselves, rather than complaints about stories they've heared? And how 'many' is that relative to the player base. A hundred of a percent? Less?

Don't know - I don't make a habit of counting them. As to the proportion of the player-base, it might be better to consider them as a proportion of the forum user-base (recognising that the vast majority of players have not registered on the forums).

 

[Ian Skippy]

You said yourself that the forums are too small a percentage of the player-base to draw accurate conclusions on the incidence of specific events and playstyles.

Right, so surely that means seeing a few whines every week about being shot with no context or vids means...nothing.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I honestly don't think we haven't seen C&P because fdev is deaf to our comments, I actually think it has to do far more with the inherent difficulty of the task.

Yes - and furthermore I think other demands/requests/preferences of the player base make it even harder to implement C&P than it otherwise would be.

Many players demand ready access to easy cash: 17 Draconis and its predecessors, all of which have received substantial forum complaint storms on removal. Leaving aside that Frontier only "fixes" these one nerf at a time and probably isn't capable in a game of this complexity of closing quick-earn loopholes faster than the player base can find them ... the consequence is that anyone who wants a multi-billion bank account can have it.

Many players demand NPCs be no real threat - 2.1.0 and 2.1.01, where the NPCs were killing substantially more players than other players ever did, were the subjects of massive complaint. Even the current toned down NPCs get plenty of complaints - especially the police, when people fire a second too early in a RES.

So the "meaningful consequences" of shooting a Clean player can't really involve cash penalties (because the people doing the shooting can afford it easily), and can't really involve ship destruction (because the NPCs can't do that)

Increased system hostility and making it harder to get rid of a bounty would certainly be welcome - and make the PvE criminal lifestyle more interesting, too - but I don't think will save a single player from PvP destruction. Super-draconian consequencs for killing even one Clean player? Well, we have those now for all those people who ram poor defenceless Sidewinders to death with their Anacondas at stations ... and all it did was mean people changed to ramming poor defenceless Anacondas to death with their Sidewinders.

I am very interested to see what Frontier actually come up with - I'm expecting it to be pretty neat and also to disappoint a very large number of people...