General / Off-Topic The persecutions of the British

[Pyrotiger]

Actually if you knew the history of the early Irish they were more interested in spreading the gospel than the sword and spread Christianity across large parts of Europe during the dark ages after it had retreated somewhat, so they brought the cross more than the sword as well as knowledge and education. Irish scholars were much prized by Charlemagne in the 700`s for their intellect and teaching. They also went on to setup monasteries in numerous areas from Saint Columbanus who founded numerous monasteries in the Frankish and Lombard kingdoms, most notably Bobbio Abbey in 614, others in Switzerland and St. Columba in Iona, Scotland. Even did the English a turn for all the good it did us.

See we Irish didn`t need civilising, as we were the ones spreading civilisation, but of course that does not suit the narrative of the conqueror and the thick bog Irish. You have to dehumanise a people before you set about destroying them, Hitler & co. knew that trick as well.

Not really, as it's just based upon speculation from a lack of evidence, and I personally think it's of little importance to the atrocities committed by the IRA against the will of the majority of the Irish people, but hey just had to point that point out since you've ignored it completely.

Now dehumanisation, yeah that's certainly something that's relevant to the wider discussion here. For the good of the thread, I'll have to put you on ignore here on in, as I'm unintentionally dragging it down and you seem to be only really interested in a one-sided version of history - with respect - you haven't really had balanced experience of, however detailed, understandable and intelligent that history is. Good day to you.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Internment -

Bloody Sunday - why didn't you say so, or were you waiting to say just to justify your sweeping statement? I'm glad you name what you are on about, specific incidents. I am not disputing that, and I do not need educating on that. I know my history - you are telling me nothing new. If you're talking with others in mind, please tell them the whole story.

I hate to say it, but what happened on Bloody Sunday has been widely known in NI for a very long time.

What I am disputing is how you can give the impression of a permanent situation of unlawful massacre from incidents. That's not on. Yes, there are incidents where what you say did happen that way, or mostly happened that way. I am utterly disgusted by them - but equally disgusted how young soldiers, who knew nothing of the situation, had to watch their comrades blown to bits or used as target practice in South Armagh. Many thought they were serving their country - now their time there is being rewritten by many who weren't even there - such as you - as being an oppressive force. That's not the whole truth, it's a snapshot.

Sadly NI was full of snapshots at that time...the most permanent thing was IRA bombs. Friday night is gelignite. That's a fact you can't look past.

Pat Finucane - I'm under no illusion, and I am very well aware of Pat Finucane and state collusion, sadly more aware of it than you can imagine. I will say - are you surprised, and do you think that's exclusively a British problem? And how many loyalist psychopaths have you spent time around? (not recommended) As I've said, reading it in a book and seeing it on TV are no substitute for actually experiencing it. Having said that, I am not saying that such experience is actually desirable in any shape or form!

Anyway enough, I agree with you on many things, just please refrain from distortion, it insults too many who cannot speak for themselves anymore because of Unionism, because of Imperialism, because of Republicanism.

Actually forgot about the obvious "Interment" until you said it. ( Lack of sleep, no kip last night) and I did not exaggerate or embellish anything I`m just repeating factual information. Re-soldiers, well you sign up and put on the uniform you know you are putting yourself in harms way, that`s the job. Civilians are a totally different ball game but unfortunately always get mixed up in the mess. I`m sure there were some few provos that were psychopathic but I`d say the IRA were a lot more stringent than the loyalist. The loyalist motto being "any Taig will do" their constant modus operandi. Larry Murphy and the Shankill butchers come to mind.

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Not really, as it's just based upon speculation from a lack of evidence, and I personally think it's of little importance to the atrocities committed by the IRA against the will of the majority of the Irish people, but hey just had to point that point out since you've ignored it completely. .

Just mentioned early Irish history in light of you stating we would have done the same in creating an empire in that time period, nothing to do with the IRA.

History is not meant to be balanced, just an accurate retelling of past events, you can either deal with it or you can`t but you cannot alter it I`m afraid.

 

[verminstar]

So good to see both sides able to agree and move on isnt it? Only in this case, one side appears incapable of moving on...then they wonder why we get nervous about sharing power with them. Truth is its guys like moonax who keep it going by raking over the dying embers of a fire that should have gone out years ago.

Yes the british done terrible things, nobody is denying that...thig is, so did the irish and this is not a peeing contest to find out who was worse...those of us who actually liged through it have to somehow come to terms with it. What happened in the past should stay in the past...so far in the last two pages, we have had 1916 and bloody sunday to name just two. How about black friday? Wanna know what happened on black friday? What the so called heroic freedom fighters did? Might not have been so bad but the target wasnt military or a british institution...no, they intentionally targetted civilians. Same with the omagh bomb...they bombed their own people even after we called a ceasefire...thats also a fact isnt it?

But no..lets all rake over the sins done a hundred years ago...so much relevance in the here and now...not.

David irvine respected by both communities ye say? Search out on google a recent incident where republicans vandalized the memorial in belfast and then tell me again how they respected one of our greatest. A man without whom the current peace would not exist. We would not have called a ceasefire had it not been fer David...he was oe the few we would listen to because he was one of us.

Anyway, this has ventured into off topic land and outsiders wont understand...they never do and never will. Last thing I will say is this...we had a terribly violent past, but we cannot let the past define us, we have to move on. Some dont want us to move on and some simply cannot let go of the past...if this peace is to last, then the last few hardliners who keep dragging their feet in the past must be ignored. They the reason we still have dissident republicans goin round kneecapping kids and targetting retired policemen. A far cry from the heroic freedom fighters of a century ago, hmm?

 

[Pyrotiger]

outsiders wont understand...they never do and never will.

It's true; well said. Bury our dead, lay our ghosts to rest and move on. What else is there to do?

 

[verminstar]

It's true; well said. Bury our dead, lay our ghosts to rest and move on. What else is there to do?

Well that depends on who ye ask. I cant change...Ill be loyalist till the day they bury me, but I can and have moved on. And I lost many friends and family to republicans so if I can move on and they cant, then I can hold my head high. We can get along together...when they bombed omagh it was because the two communities were getting along and republicans dont want that.

And that too is an inescapable historical fact...no doubt there are those who cling to the belief it was all a part of the struggle...poor deluded souls. Lets not tell the silly americans who fund them the truth...that would be an inconvenient truth for them to hear.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Well that depends on who ye ask. I cant change...Ill be loyalist till the day they bury me, but I can and have moved on. And I lost many friends and family to republicans so if I can move on and they cant, then I can hold my head high. We can get along together...when they bombed omagh it was because the two communities were getting along and republicans dont want that.

And that too is an inescapable historical fact...no doubt there are those who cling to the belief it was all a part of the struggle...poor deluded souls. Lets not tell the silly americans who fund them the truth...that would be an inconvenient truth for them to hear.

I won't justify Black Friday, Omagh or any such attrosities simply because there is no justification. Those that did it will have to atone for it someday just like the soldier's that killed ionncent people. It's a step forward when you realise that the Irish people had every right to rebel thru history just as you would do if invaded by a forgiven power. Once you realise that little nugget Irish history makes sense. It's as simple as that.

 

[Pyrotiger]

Clearly I'm not a loyalist...although I've had family blown to bits by Republicans...but I'd defend your right to be one. Not that you need defending!

Omagh is a lovely wee town, I always enjoyed going there. I was friends with someone called in that day to help out with the carnage, she had some medical training. She was never the same again. A few months afterwards, she started talking about being there and seeing bits of people...then her face went, and I'll never forget it, it was like she was back there. Anyone who bangs on about a struggle or a war against their oppressors, well they need to actually realise what it's really about when you murder innocent people and have to deal with the aftermath. Like that Pearse fellow. He was all wise before his rebellion, all full of bourgeois bluster, but when he saw it for himself, the blood and guts, he could finally tell the difference between reality and idealism.

Of course we can get along. All the many moments and times that we did - that didn't make the news.

 

[Stigbob]

Actually forgot about the obvious "Interment" until you said it. ( Lack of sleep, no kip last night) and I did not exaggerate or embellish anything I`m just repeating factual information. Re-soldiers, well you sign up and put on the uniform you know you are putting yourself in harms way, that`s the job. Civilians are a totally different ball game but unfortunately always get mixed up in the mess. I`m sure there were some few provos that were psychopathic but I`d say the IRA were a lot more stringent than the loyalist. The loyalist motto being "any Taig will do" their constant modus operandi. Larry Murphy and the Shankill butchers come to mind.

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Just mentioned early Irish history in light of you stating we would have done the same in creating an empire in that time period, nothing to do with the IRA.

History is not meant to be balanced, just an accurate retelling of past events, you can either deal with it or you can`t but you cannot alter it I`m afraid.

The majority of the deaths in Northern Ireland during the troubles were civilians killed by terrorists, usually terrorists from the same religious group as the victim. It was absolute carnage whenever both or either of the factions tried to purge the traitors (real and imagined) in their own communities.

Terrible times, glad they're done with.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Clearly I'm not a loyalist...although I've had family blown to bits by Republicans...but I'd defend your right to be one. Not that you need defending!

Omagh is a lovely wee town, I always enjoyed going there. I was friends with someone called in that day to help out with the carnage, she had some medical training. She was never the same again. A few months afterwards, she started talking about being there and seeing bits of people...then her face went, and I'll never forget it, it was like she was back there. Anyone who bangs on about a struggle or a war against their oppressors, well they need to actually realise what it's really about when you murder innocent people and have to deal with the aftermath. Like that Pearse fellow. He was all wise before his rebellion, all full of bourgeois bluster, but when he saw it for himself, the blood and guts, he could finally tell the difference between reality and idealism.

Of course we can get along. All the many moments and times that we did - that didn't make the news.

You're on about Omagh and I could talk about the British intelligence made bombs, no warning, planted in Dublin/Monaghan in May 1974 that killed 34 men, women and children.

1916 as far as Irish people are concerned was a noble effort that set the ground work for Independence. The Irish state and nation are eternally grateful to the men and women who fought and died for Irish freedom and who produced a document in the Proclamation that was decades ahead of its time in relation to the rights of citizens. They stood for their country against an empire and overwhelming odds and inspired the downtrodden of many nations by their actions. The world has already judged these individuals to be heroes and heroines, the fact the British establishment and unionism can't come to terms with that fact is for themselves to work through.

 

[Moonax IRL]

The majority of the deaths in Northern Ireland during the troubles were civilians killed by terrorists, usually terrorists from the same religious group as the victim. It was absolute carnage whenever both or either of the factions tried to purge the traitors (real and imagined) in their own communities.

Terrible times, glad they're done with.

No one knows the full story of the troubles only what you have been fed by the BBC and Co. As I said previously the Pat Finucane centre puts at least 170 murders in the Mid-Ulster area alone down to British state collusion. The British government are sitting on mountain of crap in secret files and the British public haven't a clue in relation to what actually happened in the North for the most part.

 

[znôrt]

you have to do 35 hours a week of something soul destroying to show you deserve support.

this is just terrible and shows how the best values can be rendered useless when submitting to a bureaucratic mentality that rather deals with numbers than with people, actual persons. such a shame and squander of values and resources. i live in spain and no, such aberration has still not become the norm (it will, no doubt), but general worker protection has taken a massive hit anyway. last time i checked more than 50% of unemployed have no subsidy at all, and they are long term, chronic unemployed with little to no expectations to get employed again in their lifetimes.

 

[verminstar]

I won't justify Black Friday, Omagh or any such attrosities simply because there is no justification. Those that did it will have to atone for it someday just like the soldier's that killed ionncent people. It's a step forward when you realise that the Irish people had every right to rebel thru history just as you would do if invaded by a forgiven power. Once you realise that little nugget Irish history makes sense. It's as simple as that.

Im not disputing their rights to be rebels in bygone days...I honestly have no idea where ye get that notion from. Never once have I made any claim that the british were whiter than white...if I have, then by all means quote me as saying that.

What I am saying is that history has no bearing on the here and now. So terrible things happened...so what? Were any of us there? No...which means there is no blame to pass around and nobody here bears any responsibility. Perhaps had we been there, we would have made different choices, but we didnt therefore what relevance does it have? None...none whatsoever. All yer doing is preaching from a soapbox to an audience who really couldnt care less.

Recent history in my generation is my area...an area ye dont seem keen to dwell on and with good reason. Republicans of 20 years ago were not quite the same as republicans a hundred years ago. It defines where you came from maybe, but not me. Far as Im concerned, we are being told by a foreign country that we merely confused irishmen living in denial...and that is naive to say the least.

I can respect republicans and their cause...but only if they respect my beliefs. If they cant respect mine, then to hell with theirs...really doesnt get any more complicated than that. I really dont care if ye agree or not because thats called mutual respect...something ye seem utterly incapable off judging by yer tone. Ive spent the past two decades trying to build better community relations between both communities and its people like you that just want us dragged back into the past because thats all ye bang on about. British did this, the british did that...so what?

I fail to see the relevance and I do knw the history better than ye think I do...recent history that is because the past events you rant on about happened before I was born. So why should I let those events have any influence on my life? Ye think we gonna learn some truth thats gonna make us start agreeing with ye? Never gonna happen...so why do ye keep dragging it up?

Thats not a chip on yer shoulder...its a grand canyon.

 

[Stigbob]

No one knows the full story of the troubles only what you have been fed by the BBC and Co. As I said previously the Pat Finucane centre puts at least 170 murders in the Mid-Ulster area alone down to British state collusion. The British government are sitting on mountain of crap in secret files and the British public haven't a clue in relation to what actually happened in the North for the most part.

You'd get terrorist atrocities every year with a fairly high number of civilian casualties but they were thankfully rare. Those lonely bodies dumped at the side of the road or under a bridge and the people who just vanished, now they were routine. That's where the big numbers were though it got a lot less press.

If the British government had been bumping people off why didn't they touch any of the high profile people ?.

 

[Moonax IRL]

I think it was obvious that the British government knew they couldn't win the war just like the provos on the otherside. So you had a stalemate. The British government knew Adams and McGuinness were moving to a political focus during the 80s so it would have been conterproductive to take them out. There was an attempt on Gerry Adams sometime in the 80s I think which wounded him but didn't kill him. I think you give the MI6 and Co a bit too much credit. They seems to be a lot of interagency rivially and at times they were competing for touts and trying to poach same, a bit of a confused mess at times, with them operating independent of each other and probably against each other. The IRA was not a single block but made up different automonous units which made it more difficult to penetrate. Prime amoung them would have been the likes of the South Armagh outfit.These people would have know each others families going back generations. Their parents/grandparents were probably active in the 1920s. There forebears were probably active in previous insurrections and the 1798 rebellion. That's the way it was in the south, a number of those who took to action in the 20s had that history of activism in their families for hundreds of years with a fair number direct decendents of those that fought and may have died in 1867,1848, 1798 and before. Units such as that were next to impossible to infiltrate, making them extremely dangerous. Hense the British army could only travel via helicopter is such areas. Regardless you kill one there is another to take their place. Didn't stop them trying but it was never going to solve the root problem.

 

[verminstar]

You'd get terrorist atrocities every year with a fairly high number of civilian casualties but they were thankfully rare. Those lonely bodies dumped at the side of the road or under a bridge and the people who just vanished, now they were routine. That's where the big numbers were though it got a lot less press.

If the British government had been bumping people off why didn't they touch any of the high profile people ?.

Hmm well actually they were...happened on both sides too considering sinn fein got roasted over historical murders and their refusal to cooperate with the investigations ongoing in the south. Quite amusing to see their own country investigating them over the murder of a prison guard that the IRA ordered and carried out.

As for the so called disappeared...yeah lets hear about that shall we? Torturing and executing a mother of how many kids? Because they thought she was a tout...she wasnt, they were simply terrorists spreading terror in their own community.

Happened on both sides but republicans dont talk about that much...they prefer to concentrate on the sins against them, not the sins they themselves committed. Bad fer the fund raising campaigns in the US, so best to keep it biased in their favour. Yanks love that romaticism...the truth would affect their conscience so things like that get brushed aside and arent talked about.

 

[Stigbob]

Hmm well actually they were...happened on both sides too considering sinn fein got roasted over historical murders and their refusal to cooperate with the investigations ongoing in the south. Quite amusing to see their own country investigating them over the murder of a prison guard that the IRA ordered and carried out.

As for the so called disappeared...yeah lets hear about that shall we? Torturing and executing a mother of how many kids? Because they thought she was a tout...she wasnt, they were simply terrorists spreading terror in their own community.

Happened on both sides but republicans dont talk about that much...they prefer to concentrate on the sins against them, not the sins they themselves committed. Bad fer the fund raising campaigns in the US, so best to keep it biased in their favour. Yanks love that romaticism...the truth would affect their conscience so things like that get brushed aside and arent talked about.

This will sound odd so don't take it the wrong way, but the only good thing to come out of 911 was an American awakening to the realities of terrorism.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Hmm well actually they were...happened on both sides too considering sinn fein got roasted over historical murders and their refusal to cooperate with the investigations ongoing in the south. Quite amusing to see their own country investigating them over the murder of a prison guard that the IRA ordered and carried out.

As for the so called disappeared...yeah lets hear about that shall we? Torturing and executing a mother of how many kids? Because they thought she was a tout...she wasnt, they were simply terrorists spreading terror in their own community.

Happened on both sides but republicans dont talk about that much...they prefer to concentrate on the sins against them, not the sins they themselves committed. Bad fer the fund raising campaigns in the US, so best to keep it biased in their favour. Yanks love that romaticism...the truth would affect their conscience so things like that get brushed aside and arent talked about.

The IRA were under strict instruction to never harm the Gardai or Irish army in the south, such events were extremely counter productive to there own cause but also rare. I remember a local outfit hit the post office van in my hometown over 20 yrs back as it was on a cash run and were firing over the heads of the Gardai with the Ak's. I think the postman was off for a year or so or got early retirement. I was on the other side of the globe at the time but younger brother was a young fella about 11 or 12 at the time and jumped out of the bed as he heard the bullets whizzing up the road. He ran down to the spot with his camera to get some pics and got a few snaps of the postvan on fire with some cash on the floor, made his day.
Such activities occured for what they loosely termed 'fund raising'. That's why to this day all bank runs are provided with an Irish army armed escort of maybe 20-30 lads plus vehicles, which is paid for by the bank.

 

[Stigbob]

I think it was obvious that the British government knew they couldn't win the war just like the provos on the otherside. So you had a stalemate. The British government knew Adams and McGuinness were moving to a political focus during the 80s so it would have been conterproductive to take them out. There was an attempt on Gerry Adams sometime in the 80s I think which wounded him but didn't kill him. I think you give the MI6 and Co a bit too much credit. They seems to be a lot of interagency rivially and at times they were competing for touts and trying to poach same, a bit of a confused mess at times, with them operating independent of each other and probably against each other. The IRA was not a single block but made up different automonous units which made it more difficult to penetrate. Prime amoung them would have been the likes of the South Armagh outfit.These people would have know each others families going back generations. Their parents/grandparents were probably active in the 1920s. There forebears were probably active in previous insurrections and the 1798 rebellion. That's the way it was in the south, a number of those who took to action in the 20s had that history of activism in their families for hundreds of years with a fair number direct decendents of those that fought and may have died in 1867,1848, 1798 and before. Units such as that were next to impossible to infiltrate, making them extremely dangerous. Hense the British army could only travel via helicopter is such areas. Regardless you kill one there is another to take their place. Didn't stop them trying but it was never going to solve the root problem.

Everyone was infiltrated by everyone else, that's just a fact of long drawn out civil wars.

Terrorism was always just the tip of the iceberg, the real problem was a deeper one within the population. A divided community dating back hundreds of years, no interaction, mutual hatred and violence makes the perfect breeding ground for terrorism over enough generations. Add incompetent sectarian politicians (gerrymandering voting boundaries) and the security services taking sides because only one of the factions ever shot at them and you've got the troubles. Nobodies right everyone's biased and any attempt at neutrality is an alien concept to every side because the only accepted view is "mine or else" and everyone they've ever known was biased.

 

[Moonax IRL]

This will sound odd so don't take it the wrong way, but the only good thing to come out of 911 was an American awakening to the realities of terrorism.

Reminds me of a few great quotes from the late great Brendan Behan, republican, writer raconteur and genius of the written word.

The terrorist is the one with the small bomb.

If you fight for the liberty and unity of a small country – you’re an anarchist: but if you go bombing for a great power, you’re a patriot. It all depends on the size of the country in question.

I have never seen a situation so bad that a policeman could not make it worse.

Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it’s done, they’ve seen it done every day, but they’re unable to do it themselves.

It's not that the Irish are cynical. It's rather that they have a wonderful lack of respect for everything and everybody.

 

[Pyrotiger]

Everyone was infiltrated by everyone else, that's just a fact of long drawn out civil wars.

Terrorism was always just the tip of the iceberg, the real problem was a deeper one within the population. A divided community dating back hundreds of years, no interaction, mutual hatred and violence makes the perfect breeding ground for terrorism over enough generations. Add incompetent sectarian politicians (gerrymandering voting boundaries) and the security services taking sides because only one of the factions ever shot at them and you've got the troubles. Nobodies right everyone's biased and any attempt at neutrality is an alien concept to every side because the only accepted view is "mine or else" and everyone they've ever known was biased.

Simplification.