Yes, that was the point.
General / Off-Topic The persecutions of the British
- Thread starter Patrick_68000
- Start date
Yes, that was the point.
All I can say is Irish history didn't start in 1690 and everything has a cause and effect. The situation in Ireland is a culmination of all the history preceeding this point in time. History cannot be parsed and viewed as isolated events no more than we can be viewed as less than the sum of our own experiences.
verminstar
Banned
Ye reap what ye sow...911 was a problem of their own making but I agree...it woke them up. While I feel fer those affected and condemn it in the strongest possible way, something like that was bound to happen sooner or later. They been stomping around the globe with impunity up until that happened, and their CIA got upto all sorts of dubious practices. Im not anti american, far from it, but its hard not to see how it happened and the events leading upto it. It was indirectly their own fault.
I dont mean to sound disrespectful but from my point of view, almost a third of my family were taken out by terrorists funded by sympathetic americans who were sold this romantic fairy tale of freedom fighters fighting imperialist invaders. Funny how things look when ye look at it objectively.
I see. Apologies, I'm missing pieces here.
Not a bad simplification, but you are missing things by doing this, which I see now that you are probably aware of.
If you are saying that people are not capable of divorcing their own opinions from facts and presenting them neutrally, I suggest you are wrong. I'm not saying it's a common trait, and yes the bias reeks in many instances.
Take the old RUC - when did they get the chance to be a proper police force? They failed on the basics, time and time again, because they were used as an Army Support unit. Many never never had a clue about the basics of policing, because they were used to putting their colleagues in body bags, bomb scene security and checkpoints, and of course some were pretty corrupt and colluded with the UVF etc. Don't think the security forces were always on the side of the Protestant working classes - they were not. The security forces were primarily on the side of the security forces. If that meant screwing 'their own' over, that's what would happen.
If you're talking about a divided community with no interaction, then I say you're talking more about west of the Bann. Belfast isn't the entirety of Northern Ireland. England has many divided communities, for instance. Granted they're less likely to blow each other up, but community in Norn Iron is much more tangible in many cases.
Last edited:
Please do not think of a particular UK party or government as the same as the whole of the UK because:
1. Those of us who do not, and never have, supported them tend to find this offensive.
2. It is exactly what many of the people you dislike are hoping you will do.
The problem with simplification of an issue like this is there's an unavoidable bias in us all about whats important and what isn't, which I was trying to avoid (badly probably I have a bias against bias).
The community was very badly divided some-places it was to the point of murder on sight, some places stone throwing at the weekend and just a grumbling resentment elsewhere. I hope that's changing now, but old bias dies hard.
You are right about the RUC they were frequently ambushed after a bogus report of a crime to pull them into a specific area, to counter that they went everywhere with troops and were subsequently perceived as just another unit in the army. They never got the opportunity to actually be a police force. Then you get the same people who ambushed them claiming the community is neglected by the police who are so clearly in cahoots with the military, so the terrorists have to step in to maintain order. Which leads to organized crime, grudges, punishment beatings/shootings, drug wars, people who have untouchable status and all kinds of things that damage the community and drive it apart even further. There was also an extremely strong madly anti-catholic element in the RUC which didn't really help matters at all.
The security forces fell into the habit of being supportive of the protestants because the protestants were supportive of them (and they worked with the RUC who were pro-protestant), walk down a protestant road in uniform past a little old lady watering the garden and she'll offer to top up your water bottle with her hose. Walk down a catholic street and she'll fling dog-poo your way. That influences people, it's hard to maintain neutrality when only one faction is shooting at you. But any other approach was always going to be part of the problem.
Hopefully the cycle of it flaring up again roughly once per generation has now been broken.
No chip, just a low tolerance for and the rewriting of history, especially Ireland's.
Re you comparison with the IRA of the War of Independence, be under no illusion in relation to that conflict during that period it was quiet brutal and vicious. If you think you can take on a foe like the British empire while being outgunned and outnumbered then you have to be ruthlessly efficient. The Bureau of military history in Dublin has the full archive of statements from the active combatants on the Irish side and some statements from the British side if I`m not mistaken, freely available online. If you go thru statements from a given area and period it will give you and idea of the events in question. The first thing Michael Collins ordered when things start to kick off was the elimination of all informers in each units area, so as to disrupt the RIC intelligence network and blind Dublin Castle. Informers had been the bain of Irish revolutionaries for centuries, as the bold Dan Breen used to say "they'd know what you had for breakfast dinner and supper if you had any and were a scourge". This time they were singled out from one end of the country to the other on Collins orders, and usually trapped via disinformation. Once they were found guilty they were as Dan Breen said "rubbed out". Gender didn`t enter the equation if they were found to be passing information they were eliminated and disappeared, so history repeating itself, whatever has been done, has been done before.
Generally prisoners were not taken by the IRA at the time as volunteers could not take the chance of being ID so survivors were usually executed unless they could be used as a bargaining chip for republican prisoners that may have been facing the hangman, and any Irishman found in possession of a gun or explosives was executed by the British shortly afterwards and any IRA man captured if not summarily shot was subjected to brutal interrogation, fingernail pulling & further assortments and then executed, so being a prisoner on either side was not really an option.
The majority of the British forces at the time were hardened veterans of the western front and the brutality of trench warfare, I`d imagine puling the trigger was not a bone of contention. On the IRA side you have a mixture of farmer/labourer sons who may have never held or fired a weapon in their lives, mixed in with them were Irish soldiers who had also served in the trenches again hardened veterans, these guys were the ruthless end of the equation who trained and formed the leadership of these units/flying columns. You can imagine when the gloves came off how nasty things got when you had effectively seasoned killers on both sides of the fight.
Lots of stuff was done up close and personal, you had your assorted crown assassination squads roaming the place looking for targets of choice with senior British officers telling their subordinates the more they shot the more they'd like them. Two Lord Mayor`s Of Limerick were executed in their homes in front of their families by the Black and Tans within 30 mins of each other on the same night and the Lord Mayor of Cork was also executed in his home in front of his family. If anyone approached a checkpoint and didn`t put their hands up they`d be shot on sight, no repercussions. The same senior British officer was targeted for assassination by the Cork IRA due to that order and was duly executed at his table in the Cork social club a few days later. His brother who worked with army intelligence was later shot and killed by Dan Breen during a shoot out where they raided his safe house where he was recovering from gunshots wounds. Breen ran down the stairs pistols blazing and met the British coming up the stairs killing and wounding a number of same, he then met your man`s brother on the road outside the house and in an exchange of gunfire killed him before making his escape down the fields.
All in all a quiet vicious and ruthless business, I`m afraid a bullet from the 1920`s would kill just as fast as a bullet from the 70s/80s or vice versa.
Last edited:
Oh well since I accidentally started this I might as well chip in. You clearly have a massive chip on your shoulder and you are full of because as others have pointed out you are trying to portray history from only one side. Pretty much everything you say is Anti British and pro IRA. It's obvious you are stuck in the past, the British did this or the British did that or in 1920 this or 1916 that. I can't say anything about Ireland without you jumping in and attacking me, not because I was saying anything bad but because you basically just hate it when anyone that is British doesn't appear to hate themselves for being so, plus I probably get bonus points for being English. Here is the thing, as I've said before I know my country did horrible things but it was NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. Why you feel I need educating about NI I don't know or care but after all the terrible things that have happened there it is clear they want to move on. Why can't you?
If you have educated me about anything it is how remarkable people in north appear to be and I now understand why people like Verminstar don't want reunification. For all your talk about who did what in the past and how terrible they were, people are scared of what you represent now.
My last post was just to point out the IRA of the 1920`s were no shrinking violets in comparison to the later incarnation in the North and the 1920`s was a brutal affair. The rest is just a matter of historical fact, if you can prove otherwise then your welcome to prove me wrong.
You personally or anyone else for that matter are in no way responsible for historic events but they can`t be magicked away.
Last edited:
I feel a bit bad for saying this because it was such a horrible event but on that day it went through my mind that the financial and ideological support for the IRA from people in the US would dry up now that they had been on the wrong end of a hard terrorist attack. I get what you are saying.
I think ye vastly over estimate the funds from the US, I`m sure there is a hell of a lot more coming from laundered diesel on the border, plus a lot of funds reinvested in the city of London in various portfolios, money is money regardless of its origin.
For the record, let me state that the vast majority of people in the Republic of Ireland were, and still are, actually quite bewildered and embarrassed about the modern Troubles. Many are vehemently IRA. The prevailing attitude was incredible sadness to the events up the North. OK, you may have republican diehard areas of support in areas like Dundalk and Cork/Kerry but I assure you, most Irish people want to live in peace and want everyone in the North to be happy.
The Irish people in the Republic NEVER asked the IRA to do what they did in the modern era. The modern Troubles were not done at their request. The IRA changed from a southern based resistance to a northern one, fuelled by civil rights and different grievances. You could go as far as to say it was a completely different animal. This is a complete bizarre change when you look at it, but trust me, the IRA of the late 60s onwards was a reaction to conditions in the North, a bandwagon that a dead and discredited movement jumped on (IRA was 'I ran away')
Furthermore, the modern IRA was seen as a threat to the security of the Irish state, and was certainly not trusted by many Dail administrations.
Sure, yes, a United Ireland would be great to many - I'd like that, from an ideological point of view. But noone should be coerced into that point, nor should anyone feel that this is an inevitable step, or necessary coercion. It's not, despite what some Republicans might say in triumphant outbursts. Their leadership must give their electorate propaganda - they know the score.
The people of the country of Northern Ireland have paid for the right to self-determination with their own blood. The UK will not sell the Unionists down the river. The Republic will not fight nor armtwist to get an United Ireland with ill feeling. Northern Ireland will prevail.
As to anti-English sentiment, it is much less than before. Growing up in NI with an English accent was not a barrel of laughs, I assure you. Loyallists were far more antagonistic to it than Nationalists, bizarrely
Now it's much less of a problem, as things aren't so polarised.
Last edited:
I don't think anyone's trying to magic the past away, the point is it's the past and it's better left there. I love history I read it for entertainment, but history has been weaponized in Ireland.
Ireland has been tearing itself to pieces for centuries benefiting absolutely no-body in a cycle of continually resurrected problems from the past, and it's a generational cycle. In peaceful times a new generation grow up who are too young to remember how bad it was the last time it all went to pieces, they are raised on patriotic , propaganda and bigotry (weaponized history) until they are old enough to murder people and then off it goes again (hopefully not this time if people can move on). This applies equally to both sides.
The evil Brits whose fault it all is and who started this problem a few centuries ago are all very long dead, modern Brits don't know, care or understand.
Facts from one point of view and I have no interest in trying to prove you wrong either. It's done, finished, over! What is the point in going on and on about it? I'd understand if I or people like me denied horrible stuff by the British was done to Ireland but that isn't happening people that actually live there agree, I have said repeatedly horrible stuff was done in Ireland. You always take a pop at what I say as if I'm so sort of ignorant git about Irish affairs and history but it's you that's prodding history with a stick.
I have to say your wrong on a few fronts, there will be no coercion in the North, we all voted for a free vote on the issue and when it happens, it happens. History is important to remember so we learn from it and avoid making the same mistakes. It should be able to be discussed warts and all instead of being brushed under the carpet because it makes for uncomfortable listening. It should challenge our own preconceptions of same and no one should be afraid of the facts and deal with them head on. Its kind of pointless living with a fantasy history that whitewashes events too uncomfortable to deal with and confront. Propaganda is based on lies not historical fact, fail to comprehend history and the mistakes of the past and you`ll make no sense of the present.
I just make the point that you cannot understand any conflict until you have addressed the origins of same, things don`t happen in a vacuum. As I said I don`t blame anyone alive for historic wrongs, sins of the father etc. I would be lying if I did not admit it irked me a bit when people seem to be a bit bewildered at the state of affairs with the conflict in Ireland or take a simplistic view. In these days of the internet and google there is a vast amount of information in relation to any topic to be gleamed by a cursory review of said topic. Things have never being easier on that front.
Not quite. Don't make that mistake. Various individuals and groups have benefited and exploited conditions to their own effect. There's the two constants: money and power. They never fade.
Don't even feel 1% guilty about things that happened not of your making. Historically, there are a lot of accuracies here, but it's always what is not being said, what is being ignored and what is being overemphasised, how it is being represented and sold - and for what purpose.
Mmm, politics. History is power, and I did mention about PR earlier in this thread...
Last edited:
For the record, let me state that the vast majority of people in the Republic of Ireland were, and still are, actually quite bewildered and embarrassed about the modern Troubles. Many are vehemently IRA. The prevailing attitude was incredible sadness to the events up the North. OK, you may have republican diehard areas of support in areas like Dundalk and Cork/Kerry but I assure you, most Irish people want to live in peace and want everyone in the North to be happy.
The Irish people in the Republic NEVER asked the IRA to do what they did in the modern era. The modern Troubles were not done at their request. The IRA changed from a southern based resistance to a northern one, fuelled by civil rights and different grievances. You could go as far as to say it was a completely different animal. This is a complete bizarre change when you look at it, but trust me, the IRA of the late 60s onwards was a reaction to conditions in the North, a bandwagon that a dead and discredited movement jumped on (IRA was 'I ran away')
Furthermore, the modern IRA was seen as a threat to the security of the Irish state, and was certainly not trusted by many Dail administrations.
Sure, yes, a United Ireland would be great to many - I'd like that, from an ideological point of view. But noone should be coerced into that point, nor should anyone feel that this is an inevitable step, or necessary coercion. It's not, despite what some Republicans might say in triumphant outbursts. Their leadership must give their electorate propaganda - they know the score.
The people of the country of Northern Ireland have paid for the right to self-determination with their own blood. The UK will not sell the Unionists down the river. The Republic will not fight nor armtwist to get an United Ireland with ill feeling. Northern Ireland will prevail.
As to anti-English sentiment, it is much less than before. Growing up in NI with an English accent was not a barrel of laughs, I assure you. Loyallists were far more antagonistic to it than Nationalists, bizarrely
Thank you for that response, I was getting a bit wound up. I don't have a negative view of the republic. What you have said is pretty much where I thought we all were before Moonrax. I'm a bit of a royalist and the gestures the Queen made on the state visit to the republic and the way she was received really gave me hope.
Gortron I think you fail to understand that the South was not responsible for the reemergence of the IRA in the late 60s, it was British & Unionist policy towards the nationalist minority in the North that brought them to fruition or do you believe me to be wrong on that front.
I've never been to NI (I'm going to make sure I do soon and I promise I won't go on a tour!) and although I'm aware of what has gone on I'm in no way qualified to say what I'm about to say so please don't be offended if I have got this wrong. To me history or the importance of history is about learning from mistakes. The peace process in NI is working because you have realised that your history was making you kill each other and you've collectively decided to just stop and forgive. It is an amazing feat.