Leave it alone...and make an Open PVE....that's what's needed to make this game have a beating heart...not splintering the PVE players into private groups and solo!
Vindicator Jones Discusses Fundamental Game Improvements
- Thread starter Grey Wolfe
- Start date
Leave it alone...and make an Open PVE....that's what's needed to make this game have a beating heart...not splintering the PVE players into private groups and solo!
Fair points... But haven't there been numerous such forum posts already (about karm/reputation trying to penalise mindles destruction etc), including by one by FD here on the general forums and even another by them back at kickstarter (if I recall) on their design discussions?
Also, I often prefer to listen to audio presentation rather than reading, as I can then go about doing something else while listening.
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I have just joined a player group (after a few thousand hours) and it has been a revelation. We have both private and open play and the veterans are encouraged to help new commanders along. I have helped a few already and as well as making new friends I have helped grow the open community. I have hope that FD will make the changes the game desperately needs, but right now, today, just being willing to reach out and connect with the harmless sidey will only grow the community in a positive way. We all bear some responsibility of this thing.
It's a small point, but I value the videos. Some people are also better at vocalising their thoughts through speech instead of written form. Plus there's also a lot of creativity put into it, too, and if VJ enjoys it, and the audience enjoys it, he should carry on!
The great thing about this video is that it keeps the agenda active, which means that there is a focus from players to discuss and clamour for some change. This in turn places a pressure on FDev to consider the gameplay feature and go through the costing associated with implementing C&P v1.0
If we don't keep discussing it then it notice will not be taken and nothing will happen.
Personally any implementation of Karma based persistent crime and punishment would be a game improver and in now way would it detract from gameplay activity.
If we don't keep discussing it then it notice will not be taken and nothing will happen.
Personally any implementation of Karma based persistent crime and punishment would be a game improver and in now way would it detract from gameplay activity.
VJ, I haven't really heard any specifics on the length of the sentence, the punishment to be mooted for being a bad guy. This is something I've been saying all along; my concern is that a C&P system would just be used as a cheap gimmick to ensure the PvE player base can go about their business 99.99% unmolested because the bad guys have been consigned to limbo. Since they're clearly not ever going to get a PvE Open mode and this would be the next best thing. My stance is that C&P system has to add something, not take it away, and the feeling I get from you is that you come down on the side of what I consider draconian measures. Perhaps I'm wrong and this will turn into a teachable moment.
So let's narrow it down a bit; say I go into Shinrarta and murder the first Beluga I see. He's allied with an opposing power and running into Jameson's to get some discounted modules, plus he's not properly shielded, and to top it off I suspect he's ground far to much "get rich quick" Massacre Mission stacking exploits, and all of this just triggers me. I pull him down, crush him like an ant and then go on my merry way, content in my heart and mind that I've righted a wrong and can carry on with my good work.
What should become of me? Please be specific, such as "how long should it take to work off my karmic debt?" How about if this scenario played out in medium or low security system? What if it was control system for my faction? What if the "murder" wasn't a pitiful Beluga but a warship of the Diamond Frogs who are taking over Xihe and I know to be "clean" in the system? Before you answer, I suggest you do a quick scan of the two most recent threads relating to Xihe.
So let's narrow it down a bit; say I go into Shinrarta and murder the first Beluga I see. He's allied with an opposing power and running into Jameson's to get some discounted modules, plus he's not properly shielded, and to top it off I suspect he's ground far to much "get rich quick" Massacre Mission stacking exploits, and all of this just triggers me. I pull him down, crush him like an ant and then go on my merry way, content in my heart and mind that I've righted a wrong and can carry on with my good work.
What should become of me? Please be specific, such as "how long should it take to work off my karmic debt?" How about if this scenario played out in medium or low security system? What if it was control system for my faction? What if the "murder" wasn't a pitiful Beluga but a warship of the Diamond Frogs who are taking over Xihe and I know to be "clean" in the system? Before you answer, I suggest you do a quick scan of the two most recent threads relating to Xihe.
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You can do that in any of your power's own system, not a neutral independent system.
I totally agree with Vindicator Jones; he has same good ideas to encounter these problems but I doubt FD will listen.
I'm sure they do listen, but implementing a solution is a huge effort, and Frontier never talk about unfinished work.
Ok, now we are getting into the nitty gritty of things, and as I said in my video, I dont have all the answers, especially when it comes to powerplay.
Let me be absolutely clear, I do not want this to be an arbitrary system just to keep everyone safe, and all the big bad meanies in a corner, because that dosent make for a fun game at all.
What I want is to give a realistic effect to open where those who commit random acts of murder against 100% innocent commanders, in relatively safe systems, face consequences for their actions. And to deter that kind of activity any further.
Anyone who engages in PowerPlay is NOT 100% innocent in my books, and entering enemy territory is just asking for trouble.
Lets use your example.
If the beluga is part of an opposing power that is not currently in control of that system, but your power is, then that beluga is 100% fair game, blow it up, how DARE it enter your system, such cheek!
However if the beluga is part of a power that is in control of that system, and your invading that system killing their ships, then you gain negative karma in that system ONLY. You would basically become KOS for local security and stations.
If you are both in a system that belongs to another power that you are both non aligned to, then I would say you would both be ignored, or whoever open fired first, would get a small karma decrease, but still be able to land at the station.
BUT, if that beluga is not aligned to any power, then you gain negative karma across ALL systems. How local security and stations treat you is based solely on that systems security level.. Anarchy and low security would mean no one cares about your karma level, wheras higher security systems would interdict you on sight.
Obviously this would need some balancing, but I am sure a group of relatively smart people could work something out..
I dont want the Karma system to be so draconian that anyone engaging in PVP is going to be heavily penalized.. But I do think those going seal clubbing, or hanging out at CG's just for quick thrill kills should face heavy in game consequences.
How exactly that is done is going to be one hell of a task, but I think something needs to be done, especially to help new players get a little bit better at the game.
I dunno.. maybe thats a bad idea, but I think you can sorta get the gist of my intention.
As someone who likes open (but realizes that it has issues), incentivizing playing in open in this kind of way would only make me want to play in solo/PG even more. I don't play this game as a job to make credits. It's kind of insulting, really, if that's what people think this game has to offer.
No, the appeal of playing in open is playing in a "living, breathing galaxy." Basically, a dynamic environment with other human players. If C&P, ganking, etc. weren't the issue that they sometimes are, people would naturally play in open I think much more than they might now. People shouldn't be forced into Open though for silly game incentives. If people actually want to play in solo/PG, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it.
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Ok, now we are getting into the nitty gritty of things, and as I said in my video, I dont have all the answers, especially when it comes to powerplay.
Let me be absolutely clear, I do not want this to be an arbitrary system just to keep everyone safe, and all the big bad meanies in a corner, because that dosent make for a fun game at all.
What I want is to give a realistic effect to open where those who commit random acts of murder against 100% innocent commanders, in relatively safe systems, face consequences for their actions. And to deter that kind of activity any further.
Anyone who engages in PowerPlay is NOT 100% innocent in my books, and entering enemy territory is just asking for trouble.
Lets use your example.
If the beluga is part of an opposing power that is not currently in control of that system, but your power is, then that beluga is 100% fair game, blow it up, how DARE it enter your system, such cheek!
However if the beluga is part of a power that is in control of that system, and your invading that system killing their ships, then you gain negative karma in that system ONLY. You would basically become KOS for local security and stations.
If you are both in a system that belongs to another power that you are both non aligned to, then I would say you would both be ignored, or whoever open fired first, would get a small karma decrease, but still be able to land at the station.
BUT, if that beluga is not aligned to any power, then you gain negative karma across ALL systems. How local security and stations treat you is based solely on that systems security level.. Anarchy and low security would mean no one cares about your karma level, wheras higher security systems would interdict you on sight.
Obviously this would need some balancing, but I am sure a group of relatively smart people could work something out..
I dont want the Karma system to be so draconian that anyone engaging in PVP is going to be heavily penalized.. But I do think those going seal clubbing, or hanging out at CG's just for quick thrill kills should face heavy in game consequences.
How exactly that is done is going to be one hell of a task, but I think something needs to be done, especially to help new players get a little bit better at the game.
I dunno.. maybe thats a bad idea, but I think you can sorta get the gist of my intention.
I'm reading this now, but I just wanted to let you know I added some very important scenarios (to me at least) to the end of my post which you quoted.
I think the best point he makes in the video is about 7:30 in when he says that for a lot of players having a better crime and punishment would be more important than all the features added in the latest patches.
Considering everyone has been wondering what the point of multi crew is then how about FD ditch that nonsense and they come up with a karma system. Even engineers and ship launched fighters are probably less important than solving the annoying psychopath problems.
Considering everyone has been wondering what the point of multi crew is then how about FD ditch that nonsense and they come up with a karma system. Even engineers and ship launched fighters are probably less important than solving the annoying psychopath problems.
I will have to read the rest in the morning.. Im heading to bed lol
That's a shame as his video was actually full of good useful information for players who didn't already know the stuff. I rather enjoyed the way he presented it too.
I haven't watched VJ's video, so excuse me if i'm talking out of my rear end here in terms of context, but perhaps if there is to be some sort of draconian punishment system, then make it faction wide but clear outside. Push the gankers to have safe spaces and non-safe spaces for themselves. After all, its meant to be Elite Dangerous.... for everyone. So, if they go killing in Fed space, then that's fed territory extremely dangerous for them. If they do the same in the empire... boom, bye bye empire. Same for alliance. Indep systems don't cooperate, so they get a free pass in those, until they annoy the authority in those.
Bounties make you really wanted, unless you get out. Of course, adjustments for systems based on government type/population... but regardless, you're still not wanted. No docking at Federal Anarchy stations if you have upset the feds for example.
And of course, they do need to do something about suicidewinders for any of this to be useful.
Once the bounties are gone, you are back in business, but the game needs a bit more memory than that, which the reputation system provides... enough shenanigans in a particular space, and you become hostile anyway, and not even the lack of a bounty can help you then.
This also works for PvEers as well. If i go pirating in a Fed system, then i expect the Fed to no longer welcome me, anywhere in the Federation.
At least then people have to make choices about where they go and what they do to who and when.
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Only watch half the video so far... like the karma thing, but Frontier must be careful how it pertains to pirates. I like to think of pirates as the nice guys of the bad guys. We don't want to kill you, we just want your stuff, and as long as we get your stuff, we won't hurt you and as an added bonus, we'll protect you from people who DO want to hurt you. In other words, I think pirates add tremendous value to the Universe. Unfortunately, some players disagree and insist on being evaporated in a sweaty ball of expletive laced fire, but, whatever, I can't help them beyond relieving them of their ship.
Thankfully it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think.
But murderers don't do anything but kill for kicks. So the karma thing should be tweaked in such a way that it doesn't further harm the piracy profession which is basically dead these days, anyways. Piracy was advertised as a legitimate profession and barely exists at the moment, and that is a shame.
So... perhaps this karma thing is dependent on your proclivity for murder and the meter is also tied to your piracy antics. If you murder with impunity, it keeps going up, and as it goes up, infects nearby systems so after a short while, you have to travel five or ten jumps (or more) just to get ammo, repairs and fuel.
However, if you pirate, and each time you successful procure cargo without killing the trader, it balances out the unfortunate marks who just needed to be taught a lesson, thus preventing your karma bubble from growing--and every time you waste a true murderer, it redeems you even further, or swings you to the good side thus giving you padding against those rare instances where a trader truly does need a brick to their head.
I think this should be considered. I hate trading. But I don't so much like killing random people, either. I like public service, and us pirates are the most dedicated public servants in the galaxy.
Thankfully it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think.
But murderers don't do anything but kill for kicks. So the karma thing should be tweaked in such a way that it doesn't further harm the piracy profession which is basically dead these days, anyways. Piracy was advertised as a legitimate profession and barely exists at the moment, and that is a shame.
So... perhaps this karma thing is dependent on your proclivity for murder and the meter is also tied to your piracy antics. If you murder with impunity, it keeps going up, and as it goes up, infects nearby systems so after a short while, you have to travel five or ten jumps (or more) just to get ammo, repairs and fuel.
However, if you pirate, and each time you successful procure cargo without killing the trader, it balances out the unfortunate marks who just needed to be taught a lesson, thus preventing your karma bubble from growing--and every time you waste a true murderer, it redeems you even further, or swings you to the good side thus giving you padding against those rare instances where a trader truly does need a brick to their head.
I think this should be considered. I hate trading. But I don't so much like killing random people, either. I like public service, and us pirates are the most dedicated public servants in the galaxy.
That cuts right to the core: how long should a banishment last? How long before the punishment expires organically? If security forces catch you being a bad actor and kill you on the spot, and upon resurrection you are still saddled with karmic debt, how long should it last, or is there a feasible way to work off your debt?
Also, is it appropriate that I should be punished for killing Frogs who are murdering civilians in Xihe in their effort of a hostile takeover? Should they be punished for using military might to takeover the system in the first place? Would it be good gameplay to excise opportunities for these kind of emergent scenarios?
Remember, these questions simply cannot be addressed with handwavium the way VJ has; Fdev cannot implement a system without a concrete ruleset, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that there IS no concrete answer.
It's a pity VJ knocked off before having to actually give specifics.
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Quite sad, actually, because it is actually quite a brilliant video, it had me giggling to myself for through the whole thing, not to mention nodding my head in agreement.
Z...