Vindicator Jones Discusses Fundamental Game Improvements

[Zeeman]

That cuts right to the core: how long should a banishment last? How long before the punishment expires organically? If security forces catch you being a bad actor and kill you on the spot, and upon resurrection you are still saddled with karmic debt, how long should it last, or is there a feasible way to work off your debt?

Also, is it appropriate that I should be punished for killing Frogs who are murdering civilians in Xihe in their effort of a hostile takeover? Should they be punished for using military might to takeover the system in the first place? Would it be good gameplay to excise opportunities for these kind of emergent scenarios?

Remember, these questions simply cannot be addressed with handwavium the way VJ has; Fdev cannot implement a system without a concrete ruleset, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that there IS no concrete answer.

It's a pity VJ knocked off before having to actually give specifics.

In this case, I suspect some sort of "declaration of war" is required, giving a free pass to kill each other without fear of any sort of police action, though there should still be consequences for taking out random neutral folk that pop in merely to try and appease some engineer's sick.. Erm.. Fetish.

You can do that in any of your power's own system, not a neutral independent system.

Do you know how hard it is to get "hostile" with a faction? And it seems to decay into "unfriendly" all too fast. I've often tried getting hostile with factions in areas where my group plays the BGS, every time I succeed, and head to bed for the night, next log in and... ARGH!!! Have to start again!

Z...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

That cuts right to the core: how long should a banishment last? How long before the punishment expires organically? If security forces catch you being a bad actor and kill you on the spot, and upon resurrection you are still saddled with karmic debt, how long should it last, or is there a feasible way to work off your debt?

Also, is it appropriate that I should be punished for killing Frogs who are murdering civilians in Xihe in their effort of a hostile takeover? Should they be punished for using military might to takeover the system in the first place? Would it be good gameplay to excise opportunities for these kind of emergent scenarios?

Remember, these questions simply cannot be addressed with handwavium the way VJ has; Fdev cannot implement a system without a concrete ruleset, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that there IS no concrete answer.

It's a pity VJ knocked off before having to actually give specifics.

Well, i know you were wanting answers from VJ, but here is my take.

Firstly though, if the Frogs are murdering civilians, then they should face the same problem as someone killing non-wanted players. Pirates as long as they only get fines don't need to worry too much, but the moment they open fire, its a bounty, so the karma system (or whatever) starts to kick in (maybe tiny karma hit for the interndiction, but would hate to see "good" pirates get penalized over the long run as long as they don't start killing traders).

Anyway, duration, why not cumulative? Kill one non-wanted person (PC or NPC), its 1 point. Kill 2 its 2 points, etc. How that translates in terms of bounties or karma is a good question. Current system is a week for a kill. If it was pure linear that could effectively lock someone out for a very long time. Perhaps some sort of reparation mechanic?

Hmm... not doing a good job of answering the question am I? Its damn difficult when you get down to it.

I'll leave it to wiser minds than mine.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

In this case, I suspect some sort of "declaration of war" is required, giving a free pass to kill each other without fear of any sort of police action, though there should still be consequences for taking out random neutral folk that pop in merely to try and appease some engineer's sick.. Erm.. Fetish.

Both can turn off report crimes.

Do you know how hard it is to get "hostile" with a faction? And it seems to decay into "unfriendly" all too fast. I've often tried getting hostile with factions in areas where my group plays the BGS, every time I succeed, and head to bed for the night, next log in and... ARGH!!! Have to start again!

Yeah, probably could do with tweaking. And getting out of unfriendly seems to take forever!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Quite sad, actually, because it is actually quite a brilliant video, it had me giggling to myself for through the whole thing, not to mention nodding my head in agreement.

Z...

I also laughed my head off, its good advice and i congratulated him for it both via Discord and on reddit. But Rinzler should have known he would cop a ban for posting it here. He's a long term forum member, he knows the rules. Too sweary, and we have to maintain a family friendly policy here, as much as some people dislike it.

Erm... that's semi-mod hat off, because i'm involved in the discussion, but Brett did already explain this a page or two back.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Per Jones... "Frontier should be more transparent about their roadmap and what they're working on."

Yes. Very much this.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

Quite sad, actually, because it is actually quite a brilliant video, it had me giggling to myself for through the whole thing, not to mention nodding my head in agreement.

Z...

Funny thing- .

This game features murder, terrorism, theft, burglary, smuggling, all manner of war and slave trade on top of it. Starvation, outbreak, and hopeless situations that lead to suicide. But swearing on the internet is a bridge too far.

Those people are crazy.

This video is one of the best I have seen in educating new players, and that includes the official videos.

 

[Ziljan]

That cuts right to the core: how long should a banishment last? How long before the punishment expires organically? If security forces catch you being a bad actor and kill you on the spot, and upon resurrection you are still saddled with karmic debt, how long should it last, or is there a feasible way to work off your debt?

Also, is it appropriate that I should be punished for killing Frogs who are murdering civilians in Xihe in their effort of a hostile takeover? Should they be punished for using military might to takeover the system in the first place? Would it be good gameplay to excise opportunities for these kind of emergent scenarios?

Remember, these questions simply cannot be addressed with handwavium the way VJ has; Fdev cannot implement a system without a concrete ruleset, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that there IS no concrete answer.

It's a pity VJ knocked off before having to actually give specifics.

Have you ever encountered the existing minor faction Reputation system? I think that would be a good model for a Karma system. A system that takes about 15-30 minutes of concentrated effort to become completely reviled KOS (regardless of bounty), several hours to dig your self back out to "barely passable" and several days of hard work to become "trusted" again.

This would be the same thing, but for major factions as well.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

But murderers don't do anything but kill for kicks. So the karma thing should be tweaked in such a way that it doesn't further harm the piracy profession which is basically dead these days, anyways. Piracy was advertised as a legitimate profession and barely exists at the moment, and that is a shame.

Any crime and punishment system should include pirates, since pirating is illegal. It also needs to include smugglers. But neiter of these crimes are as serious as murder, so any punishment should be relative to this. But the punishment for these crimes should be designed to add to the fun of being a pirate or smuggler, not to try and stop players from engaging in this type of gameplay. Same for murder of NPC ships, or even murdering CMDRs in anarchy space.
Since any crime and punishment system should be designed to cut down murder of CMDRs in secure space, punishment for this should be severe to the point of making it not fun for the criminal.

 

[Ziljan]

Well, i know you were wanting answers from VJ, but here is my take.

Firstly though, if the Frogs are murdering civilians, then they should face the same problem as someone killing non-wanted players. Pirates as long as they only get fines don't need to worry too much, but the moment they open fire, its a bounty, so the karma system (or whatever) starts to kick in (maybe tiny karma hit for the interndiction, but would hate to see "good" pirates get penalized over the long run as long as they don't start killing traders).

Anyway, duration, why not cumulative? Kill one non-wanted person (PC or NPC), its 1 point. Kill 2 its 2 points, etc. How that translates in terms of bounties or karma is a good question. Current system is a week for a kill. If it was pure linear that could effectively lock someone out for a very long time. Perhaps some sort of reparation mechanic?

Hmm... not doing a good job of answering the question am I? Its damn difficult when you get down to it.

I'll leave it to wiser minds than mine.

Bit of a catch 22 you're creating here by trying to create a visible distinction between good pirates and murder hobos. Of course "good" Pirates need be in the same basket as killers, for their own good, otherwise why would anyone actually give them anything? If they know they're dealing with a "good" pirate then they'll know they have nothing to fear by attempting to flee.

 

[jasonbarron]

Have you ever encountered the existing minor faction Reputation system? I think that would be a good model for a Karma system. A system that takes about 15-30 minutes of concentrated effort to become completely reviled KOS (regardless of bounty), several hours to dig your self back out to "barely passable" and several days of hard work to become "trusted" again.

This would be the same thing, but for major factions as well.

Okay, thanks for that Ziljan. I think we can work with this. How would you apply this to the scenarios I laid out for VJ a few posts above? Callous, illegal murder in Shinrarta, the chaos of war in Xihe, etc?

 

[Ziljan]

Okay, thanks for that Ziljan. I think we can work with this. How would you apply this to the scenarios I laid out for VJ a few posts above? Callous, illegal murder in Shinrarta, the chaos of war in Xihe, etc?

OK try this experiment, go into an independent system today right now even and start killing cops and civilians of the controlling faction. In a few minutes your reputation will drop from Neutral, to Unfriendly, to Hostile. Being Hostile means you are unable to dock at the control factions stations and are KOS for the police and any Allied NPCs. Hostile status exists outside of the bounty system and is not reduced by being killed. Getting back to Unfriendly status will remove the KOS flag and grant you grudging docking privileges, but it will take you several hours of searching for missions in systems that have that faction, but they aren't controlling it, thus allowing you to dock. If you want to get back to Neutral status that will take a day or two of solid effort. Hunting down rep healing missions is extremely annoying and time consuming but not impossible. And it gives players a chance to redeem themselves via a investment that precludes quick side switching and abuse.

Under a similar Karmic system, the Karmic Reputation status of player relative to the controlling (major/minor) faction would display under their name after being scanned. So you would know if they were bad actors regardless of their bounty status. If they were Hostile, they would be legally KOS by anyone Allied to the controlling faction. Simple.

 

[jasonbarron]

OK try this experiment, go into an independent system today right now even and start killing cops and civilians of the controlling faction. In a few minutes your reputation will drop from Neutral, to Unfriendly, to Hostile. Being Hostile means you are unable to dock at the control factions stations and are KOS for the police and any Allied NPCs. Getting back to Unfriendly status will remove the KOS flag and grant you grudging docking privileges, but it will take you several hours of searching for missions in systems that have that faction, but they aren't controlling it. If you want to get back to Neutral status that will take a day or two of solid effort.

Under a similar Karmic system, the Karmic Reputation status of player relative to the controlling (major/minor) faction would display under their name after being scanned. So you would know if they were bad actors regardless of their bounty status. If they were Hostile, they would be legally KOS by anyone Allied to the controlling faction. Simple.

Finally something useful and constructive emerges from this thread.

 

[Ziljan]

Finally something useful and constructive emerges from this thread.

I've been posting this info in every C&P thread since the dawn of the existing rep system. Apparently I am the only player in the game to test it out and fully understand it by becoming a serial cop killer... ?? Frankly, I find that hard to believe. But since I've had to explain the existing (limited) karma system to every experienced player I meet, it is apparently true. I am the only PVE murder hobo in the game? And Frontier made a whole mechanic just to keep my PVE Anarchy in check

To be clear these were corrupt police of an occupying faction, but they were still protected by the laws they hid behind

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

Not being able to dock at a Hostile station is a relatively new thing, introduced in 2.1. Prior to this, you could dock at a hostile station provided you didnt get scanned. But being hostile meant that every cop that saw you in SC would try and interdict you, plus you occasionally got some rather high powered cops.

 

[Ziljan]

Not being able to dock at a Hostile station is a relatively new thing, introduced in 2.1. Prior to this, you could dock at a hostile station provided you didnt get scanned. But being hostile meant that every cop that saw you in SC would try and interdict you, plus you occasionally got some rather high powered cops.

Pretty much all the cops are on steroids now, higher ranked than other system NPCs with good weaponry and significantly tougher hulls than even military ships in high CZs. They are still quite derpy though. Would be nice if both the Cops and NPC bounty hunters were on the same difficultly level as the "notorious" early 2.1 NPCs

I don't think anyone could complain then. But they'd have to be toned down in RES or they'd be cleaning house faster than wanted NPCs could spawn. Lol.

Currently, I would rate being Hostile and Wanted in a high sec system as extremely hazardous for inexperienced combat players, a good challenge for experienced combat players, and mildly annoying for PVP pros. The Cops can do better, by showing up sooner. Splitting their scanning duties between available targets. BAFing more often when the criminal is more challenging, yes even giving police access to engineered weapons.

 

[CMDR SilverStar_]

Ok, now we are getting into the nitty gritty of things, and as I said in my video, I dont have all the answers, especially when it comes to powerplay.

Let me be absolutely clear, I do not want this to be an arbitrary system just to keep everyone safe, and all the big bad meanies in a corner, because that dosent make for a fun game at all.

What I want is to give a realistic effect to open where those who commit random acts of murder against 100% innocent commanders, in relatively safe systems, face consequences for their actions. And to deter that kind of activity any further.

Anyone who engages in PowerPlay is NOT 100% innocent in my books, and entering enemy territory is just asking for trouble.

Lets use your example.

If the beluga is part of an opposing power that is not currently in control of that system, but your power is, then that beluga is 100% fair game, blow it up, how DARE it enter your system, such cheek!

However if the beluga is part of a power that is in control of that system, and your invading that system killing their ships, then you gain negative karma in that system ONLY. You would basically become KOS for local security and stations.

If you are both in a system that belongs to another power that you are both non aligned to, then I would say you would both be ignored, or whoever open fired first, would get a small karma decrease, but still be able to land at the station.

BUT, if that beluga is not aligned to any power, then you gain negative karma across ALL systems. How local security and stations treat you is based solely on that systems security level.. Anarchy and low security would mean no one cares about your karma level, wheras higher security systems would interdict you on sight.

Obviously this would need some balancing, but I am sure a group of relatively smart people could work something out..

I dont want the Karma system to be so draconian that anyone engaging in PVP is going to be heavily penalized.. But I do think those going seal clubbing, or hanging out at CG's just for quick thrill kills should face heavy in game consequences.

How exactly that is done is going to be one hell of a task, but I think something needs to be done, especially to help new players get a little bit better at the game.

I dunno.. maybe thats a bad idea, but I think you can sorta get the gist of my intention.

This.
BTW good vid!

 

[Julio Montega]

OK try this experiment, go into an independent system today right now even and start killing cops and civilians of the controlling faction. In a few minutes your reputation will drop from Neutral, to Unfriendly, to Hostile. Being Hostile means you are unable to dock at the control factions stations and are KOS for the police and any Allied NPCs. Hostile status exists outside of the bounty system and is not reduced by being killed. Getting back to Unfriendly status will remove the KOS flag and grant you grudging docking privileges, but it will take you several hours of searching for missions in systems that have that faction, but they aren't controlling it, thus allowing you to dock. If you want to get back to Neutral status that will take a day or two of solid effort. Hunting down rep healing missions is extremely annoying and time consuming but not impossible. And it gives players a chance to redeem themselves via a investment that precludes quick side switching and abuse.

Under a similar Karmic system, the Karmic Reputation status of player relative to the controlling (major/minor) faction would display under their name after being scanned. So you would know if they were bad actors regardless of their bounty status. If they were Hostile, they would be legally KOS by anyone Allied to the controlling faction. Simple.

Aye that is the state of the game,
and this behaviour is where "shadow flagging"
a player to a faction in the system,
either by his own pledge through the right hand
menu -> factions -> select faction,
or assumption of being pledged to the governing
faction if not set manually, ties in.

That way PvP interaction impacts the BGS
and faction rep and is policeable.

 

[askavir]

Pretty much all the cops are on steroids now, higher ranked than other system NPCs with good weaponry and significantly tougher hulls than even military ships. They are still quite derpy though. Would be nice if both the Cops and NPC bounty hunters were on the same difficultly level as the "notorious" early 2.1 NPCs

I don't think anyone could complain then. But they'd have to be toned down in RES or they'd be cleaning house faster than wanted NPCs could spawn. Lol.

My favorite way ito collect materials in 2.1 was to go into a RES and follow the cops with the cargo hatch open and a swarm of active collector limpets deployed. As the cops smashed through the pirates I could barely keep up with so many loot to pickup.

 

[mono]

The worst thing about all this is that we are years into a game and the developers still don't have a coherent and effective C&P system in place. And it's not like they haven't been lobbied about about or they can't see what's going on under their noses. It's shoddy on FD's part in the extreme as this should have been thought out and in place the day premium beta ended. And this ties in to one of my main bugbears with the game - the constant chase to release shiny new things and revenue which at times, especially the amount of dev time put into the revenue chasing, I find quite obscene, because those things have to be 100% per cent right when it's quite obvious certain parts of the game are not. Hang on though, you already had my money for the game, at least get the core of that right first. Please?

Some good points made in this thread by many people, but will FD take heed?

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

Currently, I would rate being Hostile and Wanted in a high sec system as extremely hazardous for inexperienced combat players, a good challenge for experienced combat players, and mildly annoying for PVP pros. The Cops can do better, by showing up sooner. Splitting their scanning duties between available targets. BAFing more often when the criminal is more challenging, yes even giving police access to engineered weapons.

That is how it should be. Currently, having a moderate bounty is at worst an annoyance. I haven't been hostile with a controlling faction since 2.1, but being hostile with other factions doesn't appear to make any difference except to the missions.

Some other things with crime need fixing. I recently smuggledhauled several thousand tons of narcotics into the blackmarket in an outpost to drop the influence of the faction controlling the outpost. I quickly became allied with this faction, even though their influence took quite a hit.
Early last year, the smuggling CG in Epsilon Indi quickly put the system into lockdown. This state didn't close the station services like it does now, but what it did do was put the system cops into high alert so that they interdicted and scanned everyone in the system. That added to the fun of the CG by making the smuggling more risky, the PvP interdiction helped as well. The way lockdown is now isn't as much fun, since smuggling into a shut-down blackmarket is pointless.