Frontier. Please make a PVE mode to this game.

[Dathayn]

It seems to me that neither the pvp crowd or pve crowd can find common ground with the other. It's either this way or that. Git good or I don't want to be your content. I tend to side with pve open, but a compromise may be necessary. There may not be a solution unless both sides give a little. Everyone's preferred gameplay has merit. The argument has seriously gotten stale and really boring. In the end, it's what is best for the game as a whole. As a pve'er, I can come part way IF I see similar movement on the other side. If you think it's your way or the highway (pvp owns open, go to solo/pg you carebear lol) maybe you should think bigger. Otherwise, the result is hotel california. You can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave. [smile]

PvP folks should accept a good c&p system as a challenge imo. Seriously, you wanna seal club with wild abandon and no ramifications? How dull.....if you want a challenge, seek it.
Give some pve guys/gals some room to improve and maybe just maybe you'll get the emergent gameplay you want. Not always but you'll get more than you have now i bet.

Regardless of your disposition, it's time (some would say past time) for fdev to seriously engage on this subject. I hope they will.

I will bend. Will you?

 

[Backelaer]

Piracy definitely needs a new set of tools / re worked tools... that's very clear. BUT saying that, piracy doesn't have to end up smacking the target.. (think leech, it sucks the blood from the victim, but once has its fill, drops off and the prey (if you want to call it that) carries on, probably irritated, but very alive and continues to go about whatever it was doing)... the right tools for the job a precision instrument to bleed cargo is enough.. you'll probably get a bounty, but absolutely not a hard retaliation by system authority ... unless you start slapping them with railguns The hopeful effect of this is that as PvErs are more confident to roam in open (knowing that they're protected stock) it will encourage more and more pirates (that will only be a nuisance, not things horror films are made from).. and in turn, you'll have more players (pirates) roaming about with BOUNTIES, delicious bounties!!

It completes the PvP food cycle. Trader <-- pirate <-- bounty hunter. or perhaps pirates start getting territorial and hand out some grr to other pirates invading their turf. Bounty hunters will just roam after all that delicious bounty that pirates accrue. Hopefully it will set the scene that Pirates are not there to kill their trader life blood.. traders know that pirates are not there to just kill them.. the may try to get away.. but give the pirates the right tools.. and.. inevitable is inevitable.. lewt is lewt.

The EvE style response is simply there to stop seal clubbing (that which drives many PvE players away from open and into mobius).. Hopefully a fair all round solution. The only ones that lose out are the true griefers, not the real PvP players, nor pirates.

Hooray! (possibly?)

Problem with that is that you answer in great spirit, but technically, this all might prove to be very difficult. Piracy doesn't mean 'leeching' a target, it involves interdicting them, and then engage in personal negotiations/threats/parlay. The pirated party can choose to either respond to negotiations, flee, or blow said pirate to smithereens.
The pirate too, must have the option of blowing his victim to smithereens if those negotiations turn out to be unfruitful. Having local security turn up at the instance of the pirate firing would make that an impossible career. However, if we try to implement C&P like you mentioned -and to stop griefers, indeed they should be there instantly, because an engineered FdL can take you out in seconds- those same security forces would take out the pirate. Having NPC security forces see a difference between a ganker and a genuine pirate seems like an impossible task to me.

 

[Deadspin]

I remain unconvinced that a C&P system would solve the issue.

If any retaliation of the C&P system is delayed (i.e. happens after a victim went pop and the ganker had his gleeful moment) then it can probably be circumvented by clean save (a desperate measure, sure, but I'm willing to bet there will be those who take it). It also won't ever stop ramming at stations (you really don't need much to do that).

If the retaliation is instantaneous and actively prevents a victim from going pop then I doubt the PvP community would be happy about it (because it'll be too much in the other direction).

That said, I'd love to be proven wrong.

Hopefully, bad karma will not be wiped clean by a simple CMDR reset - it is probably meant to be a lasting consequence for actions after all.

And even then, a CMDR reset doesn't help the aggressor. Even if they could wipe their karma clean with a reset they've still got to find a way to procure the funding (Not to mention the time) to re-outfit an engineered ship, something you would absolutely need to pull off a gank before a Concord like security force could clear the aggressor from the instance. That's how you get ganked in EVE. The offending player flies in a glass cannon that can wipe out their target in seconds, avoiding concord. The only thing they get for the kill is corp harassment and a kill mail and, under a system like this, I wouldn't include those things in an ED C&P system.

I almost exclusively play in open, because I enjoy the threat while flying out there. And to me this sounds pretty good actually. But wouldn't that destroy real piracy as a career option? Never tried pirating myself, but I've been pirated a couple of times by honest pirates -so to speak- and those were pretty exciting and fun encounters.

You can pirate in hisec space in EVE, there are tools afforded to the player that don't invoke the wrath of concord when used on another player IIRC, tools that keep the target from being able to jump out. The only way to avoid pirating with something like that (A null field for their FSD basically) would be for the player being attacked to outrun the attackers effective range, capitulate to their demands or simply log off. Though at that point I would hope Frontier would roll out a deterrent as well for combat logging under pirate conditions. You could even say that, at that point, the crime has been broadcast but you have to wait the normal 2-3 minute arrival time of the System Security Forces. Enough time for a skilled pirate to get a hatch breaker limpet in, get some limpets of his/her own out and grab that cargo and scoot away from the instance before local forces arrive.

Of course, a system like this would require the in-game systems to be restructured so as to support both lawful and unlawful player havens, with missions to support both types of gameplay, factions, PP factions and so on so that no single player is left out of an element that the game offers by crossing from good to bad or vice versa. Give each side corresponding engineers and gear as well so that there is also an added incentive to being good or being bad.

There are a metric ton of elements in the game that would need to be addressed due to the butterfly effect involved in changing a single mechanic of this nature, which is also probably why Frontier is tight lipped about what they are planning. There's no need to release an incomplete plan that would incite fury within various aspects of the player base until they've managed to iron out the fine details of how things in-game would be effected by the change.

 

[Notwyn]

Sorry, a bit OT. Pirates should have no special consideration. They are common thieves and should be whacked immediately by security forces for attacking any ship. We earned our cargo with honest trade, why should you just hand it over?

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

What we really need in OPEN to de-incentivise pointless clean commander ganks, is engineered FDL system authority ships decloaking and thwaping the perp before they strip the shields from the innocent..

You haven't really thought this through have you ?

 

[sewerratuk]

Sorry, a bit OT. Pirates should have no special consideration. They are common thieves and should be whacked immediately by security forces for attacking any ship. We earned our cargo with honest trade, why should you just hand it over?

Does that include NPCs that are after your tasty cargo?

- - - Updated - - -

One proposal would be to let fdev wash their hands on managing it. It would be a community run event, similar to Mobius running the Mobius event. Even a Mobius Open. Then anyone being a dirk would be permanently removed by a Mobius admin.

Something like that.

Deadspin whacked the nail pretty hard with this:



What we really need in OPEN to de-incentivise pointless clean commander ganks, is engineered FDL system authority ships decloaking and thwaping the perp before they strip the shields from the innocent..

Can't ever see FD implementing a mode that is policed by a community, it would be prime for abuse (a bit like this forum sometimes)

Also can't see them implementing insta appearance and kill by security. It goes against the whole ethos of HS, SC, ship transfers, etc

 

[Notwyn]

Does that include NPCs that are after your tasty cargo?

If I will not hand it over to a PK'ing pirate, I'm sure not giving it to a NPC pirate.

 

[JosiahD]

1: Frontier doesn't lay a finger on the Mobius groups. They are handled by the individuals who create and manage them. There is no increased load placed on Frontier by the continued use of the current Mobius system.

Guess again.....

https://elitepve.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4684

The description clearly indicates that Frontier has indeed had a part to play....and therefore increased load on them....to assist in facilitating the timezone groups and also tools to make the group more secure against undesirable players. Sounds like something that Frontier will need to continue to assist with and support as the number of Mobius groups increases. In addition to the player membership managed by players, Frontier most definitely has had a hand in supporting the expansion of the group....arguably effort that would just as easily be expended supporting an open PvE mode if they so chose.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Having NPC security forces see a difference between a ganker and a genuine pirate seems like an impossible task to me.

ok 1stly the serial killer is not a "role" i understand or empathise with in ED, i think players who do this are (would hit moderation issues here so leave to your imaginings)... So i am out of my comfort zone here, however, the serial killer IS a "legitimate" role in the game accprding to some of the devs - cant remember who said it, Sandro perhaps?... hell there are missions to massacre trade ships in the BB (another pet hate of mine, these should be with the shady contact but that is for another thread)

so like it or not imo if you are in open, and if a player REALLY wants to blow you up and they have the ship to do it, high sec or not, if the game is going to be anything like realistic, your destruction is probably going to be assured unless you have a 5A dirty drive mod on a cobra/eagle or other super fast ship to run (even then i fancy a player killer ship to get you)

Any crime and punishment system is likely to be more about punishing the player for committing the crime, and making the "serial killer" role against pilots federation members something which is just not an attractive thing to so... esp in systems with security.

the simple fact is, if anyone wants to kill anyone else, there is naff all we can do about it.... i am sitting in my office here, and if i wanted to bring a knife into work, (or worse) even in Cambridge, in a fairly secure science park, no one could stop me if i wanted to... .but equally i would not get away with it either.

the same is true in Elite.... A good Crime and punishment will be about stopping certain actions by making it highly unprofitable to do them but NOT making them physically impossible to do.

as for piracy, well, piracy should be in low sec / lawless space anyway, surely that is the point of having anarchy systems, but of course profits need to be boosted for going to the dangerous places.....

There was meant to be a declaration of piracy option iirc, as well as a reputation system for being a pirate.
pirates need more tools to get the goods without destroying ships, ie the cargo limpet things should be better than they are....... AS for the player who defends themselves by fighting back and then gets blown up by the pirate...

well that comes down to the choice of career and the skill of the pirate, and them picking targets which even if their prey fight back, having the tools to disable, not destroy if they do not want the wrath of the pilots federation on them (as well as any potential local security).

pilots federation response should be universal regardless of security of the system BUT only get involved with clean members ship destruction .. local security response however should be based on the level of local security imo and be interested in all crimes.

really this kind of thing is more than a PvE or PvP thing however.

 

[sewerratuk]

If I will not hand it over to a PK'ing pirate, I'm sure not giving it to a NPC pirate.

As has been stated on lots of other threads. A pirate is not a PKer, they want your cargo, nothing else.
Some pirates (the proper RPers) will attempt to remove your chances of escaping if you don't comply immediately, still not PKing. If you still keep resisting and get away, good for you. If you keep resisting and don't get away, depending on how you played the game they may let you go after taking your cargo or it may end up in ship destruction for you (either on purpose by said pirate or inadvertently while trying to disable you).
If you get someone that interdicts you and destroys you without demands, they are not pirates, they are PKers.

I hope that clears it up a little for you. Please stop with the fear mongering

 

[Apos]

If I will not hand it over to a PK'ing pirate, I'm sure not giving it to a NPC pirate.

After the immunity to player damage, here comes the request for immunity to NPC damage.

Oh wait...those already materialised by people asking for their big 3 ships to be special because they cost more.

 

[Robert Maynard]

As has been stated on lots of other threads. A pirate is not a PKer, they want your cargo, nothing else.
Some pirates (the proper RPers) will attempt to remove your chances of escaping if you don't comply immediately, still not PKing. If you still keep resisting and get away, good for you. If you keep resisting and don't get away, depending on how you played the game they may let you go after taking your cargo or it may end up in ship destruction for you (either on purpose by said pirate or inadvertently while trying to disable you).
If you get someone that interdicts you and destroys you without demands, they are not pirates, they are PKers.

I hope that clears it up a little for you. Please stop with the fear mongering

A PKer role-playing a pirate may just go through the motions of piracy then destroy anyway - still a PKer.

.... from the perspective of the target there's no difference between that and a "real" pirate that choses to destroy the target.

 

[Robert Maynard]

After the immunity to player damage, here comes the request for immunity to NPC damage.

Was it?

.... or was it simply a statement that no cargo would be dropped for an NPC pirate?

 

[Apos]

Was it?

.... or was it simply a statement that no cargo would be dropped for an NPC pirate?

Such a statement would not require the existence of this thread.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Such a statement would not require the existence of this thread.

Having a policy of not dropping cargo for pirates has no bearing on whether a player prefers PvE or PvP - this thread is about a desire for a game mode where direct PvP is removed.

 

[Apos]

Having a policy of not dropping cargo for pirates has no bearing on whether a player prefers PvE or PvP - this thread is about a desire for a game mode where direct PvP is removed.

Of course. And piracy will be viable in Open PvE as well, people will drop cargo out of good will, otherwise risk being harassed with hurtful words.

Let's be realistic. This request includes a lot more than direct PvP being removed.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Of course. And piracy will be viable in Open PvE as well, people will drop cargo out of good will, otherwise risk being harassed with hurtful words.

Let's be realistic. This request includes a lot more than direct PvP being removed.

Piracy does not require to be carried out on players and is available in all three of the existing modes.

I would not expect that PvP piracy would be possible in an Open-PvE mode - as it is PvP. Piracy by and of NPCs would still exist - as it does in Solo at the moment.

 

[V'larr]

Piracy by and of NPCs would still exist - as it does in Solo at the moment.

That point's debatable...I would not call the ingame NPC piracy experience "acceptable", whether on the giving or receiving end of things. It definitely needs improvement.

 

[Robert Maynard]

That point's debatable...I would not call the ingame NPC piracy experience "acceptable", whether on the giving or receiving end of things. It definitely needs improvement.

The point was not whether NPC piracy is acceptable (in my opinion there is a complete lack of "formalisation" of piracy) - rather that it would exist in an Open-PvE mode as it already does in Solo.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

That point's debatable...I would not call the ingame NPC piracy experience "acceptable", whether on the giving or receiving end of things. It definitely needs improvement.

indeed, am with you there...... i have not done much piracy but when i did dabble for the "science" the stuff the ships were carrying tended to be tosh, in theory one would expect npc traders to carry "good" loot just as players do.

also, as a boost, when pirating a pirate, one would hope the dropped goods should not be flagged as stolen, or, more accurately we should be able to tag them as salvage and then hand them in legally at a port and be given a small finders fee and rep boost - so legal piracy, or "collection agent" if you will.