General / Off-Topic Northern Ireland...a very unique problem

[verminstar]

So...recently our illustrious political leadership have been caught out with their fingers in the till so to speak. The scandal we call 'cash for ash' will eventually cost the taxpayer about 400m and the investigation into why, who and so forth has been cancelled due to Martin Mcguiness quiting as deputy first minister. This in effect means the first minister, Arlene Foster is no longer first minister and the stormont executive has basically collapsed.

Its a long and complicated tale of politicions yet again putting their interests above those they represent...confidence in the political structure, already at a record low has taken a severe body blow and there are rumours that this could spell the end of the good friday agreement.

Thats not a worst case scenario either...worst case is the end of the 20 year ceasefire and a return to the dark days of our past. So the stakes are high.

Now...westminister has called a snap election, but with trust in the executive at an all time low, voter apathy could skew the result so badly that the entire executive simply collapses.

Another possibility has been aired and this is where I would like to hear opinions from those who know more about the policies of the EU. A coalition government who would preside over with direct rule...made up both the british and irish government. Thing is, we are already on the eve of article 50 and this would be a very unusual situation to say the least.

Personally, Im not sure how I feel about this proposition. Im interested in exactly how this could work at all as it means this little country would be fairly unique in terms of the EU...we belong to the UK which is on the way out and part governed by the free state down south who are very much EU members. Im not overly joyful at the thought of those people having any influence over us, but events are already beyond our control.

Any thoughts on this? How could this work and what would it mean fer us?

 

[beelbeebub]

could you elaborate on the scandal.

my (admittedly brief) understanding was that the renewable heat incentive was championed by the FM but it was badly designed so it was possible to get paid more for burning fuel than it cost, leading to people burning more than they needed to get extra cash.

this all sounds very stupid and possibly borderline incompetent.

have any politicians involved been implicated in benefiting from this loophole?

 

[Pyrotiger]

I cannot stand Martin McGuiness on a personal note. He chills my blood.

However, forgetting about that and looking at a wider picture - it's pretty bad news.

All I can say is, Martin McGuinness wouldn't have quit had he thought SF would lose from what was to happen, no matter how much a principled stand he says it is. So, one thing's for sure, Unionism is going to get some damage.

I think most people in politics do want Stormont to continue and there will be attempts to avoid direct rule if at all possible. If there was (forgive me, I cannot remember Good Friday agreement terms etc), I think there would not be a 50% involvement from the Irish government - that would be a red rag to a bull - but I'm sure there will be some sort of soft involvement.

Either way, it's sad for Norn Iron/6 Counties/Ulster/whatever you want to call it. But are there signs that anyone can stomach the way it was before? I don't live there now, so I am not sure, but I really hope it's not the case.

Now, this is the Ulster I'm more familiar with!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38586270

Height of technology, hey!

 

[verminstar]

could you elaborate on the scandal.

my (admittedly brief) understanding was that the renewable heat incentive was championed by the FM but it was badly designed so it was possible to get paid more for burning fuel than it cost, leading to people burning more than they needed to get extra cash.

this all sounds very stupid and possibly borderline incompetent.

have any politicians involved been implicated in benefiting from this loophole?

Basically ye...fer every pound ye burn, stormont gives ye 1.60 back. As one can imagine...the opportunities fer scamming is obvious and with those sorta profits, very hard to resist, even if yer original motivations were genuine. As its basically come with the first ministers approval, then that money is guaranteed and perfectly legal. Anyone who took advantage of the scheme will be paid...even now after a whistleblower released the entire story to the public and the brown stuff didnt just hit the fan, it broke the propellor.

The investigation to find out has been cancelled fer now, although its widely suspected that quite a few politicians have benefitted from the scheme...this is why they dont want an investigation and have taken steps to have it halted. Gotta love the way the law dictates to the public that the very minister in charge of said investigation is actually the prime suspect meaning the results would be suspicious to say the least.

I cant link stuff from here but typing in cash for ash should turn up more than a few hits.

Does need to be said that this isnt a consequence of the brexit vote...this is good old fashioned political corruption at the very top echelons of stormont with the first minister being the focal point. The terms of the good friday agreement mean that power must be shared by a first and deputy first minister, with each candidate represent the two biggest parties...in this case the DUP and sinn fein. The snap election is the first of its kind in 18 years...this give the public their say on who the two big parties should share the power, but not specifically who gets the top dog job...these have to be nominated by the parties themselves and as Arlene Foster refuses to step down, even after a vote of no confidence, then the entire executive falls apart when the deputy first minister resigned. Foster still has the support of her own party and by what one can tell, this support is absolute. They run a tight ship considering the whistleblower had been one of their own turned against them, because he developed a conscience apparently ^

Power simply cannot be held by one party, and SF are point blank refusing to share power with them. Without that cooperation, it goes against the terms of the good friday agreement. That has been the glue that held everything together, including several ceasefires from both sides. Regardless what anyone would wish to believe by the lack of headline news reports, the organisations behind those ceasefires never actually went away. They just quit using bombs and no more bullets...beatings with baseball bats dont make the headlines after all.

I have no love fer Martin either, but I do hold a grudging respect fer what hes done. Turned his back on his violent past and educated himself then went into politics. Politicians like that I could respect because he wasnt born with a silver spoon in his mouth like so many others...that is if he wasnt SF which represents everything I oppose. But yeah...hes a bad man who did very bad things in his youth.

Im guessing they want an election of this type...the party is point blank refusing to appoint anyone else after Martin walks, so London has no other option but to call a snap election if the stalemate continues this time next week. If that fails, then its back to direct rule from Westminister and Dublin and nobody wants that because then nobody gets what they want. Sinn Fein are no doubt counting on a favourable election result as this alternative of direct rule means they are effectively out in the political wilderness with no real power.

Unionists on the other hand then have to start recieving orders from Dublin...even the thought of that makes me sick in my stomach but what are the alternatives? They dont bear thinking about too long...the alternatives are an end to the peace and a return to the bombings and the killing, soldiers back on the streets and a hard border which is a logistical nightmare to police.

Many thought the brexit would do the most damage...who would have thought it would good old fashioned political corruption that would do the worst damage. Those who hide behind laws they made to protect themselves from the very thing the laws were setup to protect against...absolutely priceless. Typical politicians as usual.

Maybe Im just ranting and this is a place to rant...this was my greatest fear. I had hoped my generation would be the last to live in this hateful place I call home. We are indeed a cursed land and history is repeating itself.

 

[Lianachan]

(Deleted - wrong thread)

 

[Ian Skippy]

As a more general thought, I am getting very bored with the whole 'the people's confidence in the elite is at an all time low!' talk. Considering the efforts of 'the people' to improve anything has rarely extended beyond 'whining in the pub', I cant say I have less confidence in 'the elite' than in 'the people'. If the Irish people have a problem with something, maybe they should do something. Like go into politics. But as that means making an effort, I am sure we'll just going to see a lot of angry tweets and facebook posts. And after that its back to beer, football and computer games.

We all get the leaders we deserve...

 

[Hell Razor5543]

Northern Ireland has my sympathies. That country has been through hell, and deserves time to recover. The Good Friday Agreement has helped a lot. Now some thieving shysters (my opinion) want to de-rail that GFA for the sake of a few quid in their pocket. I hope that unbiased authorities find out who came up with that scheme, and drops them down the deepest hole in Ireland.

 

[metatheurgist]

As a more general thought, I am getting very bored with the whole 'the people's confidence in the elite is at an all time low!' talk. Considering the efforts of 'the people' to improve anything has rarely extended beyond 'whining in the pub', I cant say I have less confidence in 'the elite' than in 'the people'. If the Irish people have a problem with something, maybe they should do something. Like go into politics. But as that means making an effort, I am sure we'll just going to see a lot of angry tweets and facebook posts. And after that its back to beer, football and computer games.

We all get the leaders we deserve...

I also take issue with the concept of politicians being "the Elite". Some of the people that get elected in my country I wouldn't spit on if they were on fire. On the other hand, scientists are constantly ignored about climate change and vaccination. Those people I'd consider the elite, but they've never had any sway at all.

 

[Captain Willard]

YES You must listen to Hollywood celebrities, they know these things better than any scientist. Okra Hamfrey any one?

 

[verminstar]

As a more general thought, I am getting very bored with the whole 'the people's confidence in the elite is at an all time low!' talk. Considering the efforts of 'the people' to improve anything has rarely extended beyond 'whining in the pub', I cant say I have less confidence in 'the elite' than in 'the people'. If the Irish people have a problem with something, maybe they should do something. Like go into politics. But as that means making an effort, I am sure we'll just going to see a lot of angry tweets and facebook posts. And after that its back to beer, football and computer games.

We all get the leaders we deserve...

Ye mean like the US? Certainly got the tweeting part right if nothing else ^

Meanwhile in reality...its not the irish who have a problem which means yer either making an ignorant assumption about something ye know nothing about, or yer just bein a moron...I leave you to decide considering ye know everything already ^

 

[Pyrotiger]

As a more general thought, I am getting very bored with the whole 'the people's confidence in the elite is at an all time low!' talk. Considering the efforts of 'the people' to improve anything has rarely extended beyond 'whining in the pub', I cant say I have less confidence in 'the elite' than in 'the people'. If the Irish people have a problem with something, maybe they should do something. Like go into politics. But as that means making an effort, I am sure we'll just going to see a lot of angry tweets and facebook posts. And after that its back to beer, football and computer games.

We all get the leaders we deserve...

Umm I think people all over island have a history of "doing something about it" and that's what some of us are scared of!

No, we don't all get the leaders that we deserve. History should show you that.

 

[verminstar]

Umm I think people all over island have a history of "doing something about it" and that's what some of us are scared of!

No, we don't all get the leaders that we deserve. History should show you that.

Kids must still be off school ^

Actually doing something about it...theres actually not a helluva lot that can be done about it. Even the snap election wont fix anything, because we still voting fer the same morons who messed up in the first place...all it achieves is possibly a new first and deputy first minister. If that cant be achieved then getting into politics would be utterly pointless and futile considering we then go back to direct rule.

Those who suggest such a ludicrous thing probably aint the shiniest penny. This is not an attack on the elites...this a case where the elites really have messed up and have been caught red handed messing up and the people unhappy about this arent all in the pub...thats just a trolling comment from said unshiny penny.

Actual violence is a long way off...its not that sorta problem yet. Im hopeful it wont escalate to that...was hoping this generation wouldnt walk that road.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Ye mean like the US? Certainly got the tweeting part right if nothing else ^

Meanwhile in reality...its not the irish who have a problem which means yer either making an ignorant assumption about something ye know nothing about, or yer just bein a moron...I leave you to decide considering ye know everything already ^

Kids must still be off school ^

Actually doing something about it...theres actually not a helluva lot that can be done about it. Even the snap election wont fix anything, because we still voting fer the same morons who messed up in the first place...all it achieves is possibly a new first and deputy first minister. If that cant be achieved then getting into politics would be utterly pointless and futile considering we then go back to direct rule.

Those who suggest such a ludicrous thing probably aint the shiniest penny. This is not an attack on the elites...this a case where the elites really have messed up and have been caught red handed messing up and the people unhappy about this arent all in the pub...thats just a trolling comment from said unshiny penny.

Actual violence is a long way off...its not that sorta problem yet. Im hopeful it wont escalate to that...was hoping this generation wouldnt walk that road.

Its nice to see you resort immediately to personal attacks and some odd remark about the US. No clue why you'd bring that up, but then again, I am a very unshiny-penny-schoolkid apparantly. Oh, I bolded a part, maybe you can appreciate it better in hindsight. By the way, before you explode again, consider the words another person types. Like 'as a more general thought', may possibly indicate that it is, you know, a more general thought. Then again, I am an ignorant moron, so what do I know. Out of curiosity: is there a law in Ireland that makes it mandatory to vote for 'the same morons' (try and widen your vocabulary by the way, its a bit limited and crude)? How did these 'morons' get into the unique position of being an active element in the democratic process?

 

[Gortron]

Its nice to see you resort immediately to personal attacks and some odd remark about the US. No clue why you'd bring that up, but then again, I am a very unshiny-penny-schoolkid apparantly. Oh, I bolded a part, maybe you can appreciate it better in hindsight. By the way, before you explode again, consider the words another person types. Like 'as a more general thought', may possibly indicate that it is, you know, a more general thought. Then again, I am an ignorant moron, so what do I know. Out of curiosity: is there a law in Ireland that makes it mandatory to vote for 'the same morons' (try and widen your vocabulary by the way, its a bit limited and crude)? How did these 'morons' get into the unique position of being an active element in the democratic process?

This is obviously an important issue for him and you did just wade in with no understanding of the issues and then tell him effectively stop complaining or do something about it otherwise he gets what he deserves. This is nothing to do with populism and all that. Google 'The troubles' and you will understand why he snapped at you.

 

[Ian Skippy]

This is obviously an important issue for him and you did just wade in with no understanding of the issues and then tell him effectively stop complaining or do something about it otherwise he gets what he deserves. This is nothing to do with populism and all that. Google 'The troubles' and you will understand why he snapped at you.

Fair enough. I should have been more sensitive, so apologies to Verminstar. But that wasn't my point at all. My point is (and I do have an idea what this is about, or I like to believe so) that this is not a unique event that is typically Irish. Look at any western democracies, the US or the EU, and you'll find dozens if not hundreds of variations on this theme. My country is up for elections in two months. I am not aware of a modern democracy with so many registered parties, yet I'd be hard pressed to name three that I'd trust. The overwhelming majority of people dont trust what we're offered. And this is the same everywhere. There are many possible futures, but I dont see all too many happy endings. And we either act real soon, or its going to be too late. I despise populism, but thats not an argument for withdrawal in disgust.

And again, its a general musing. Which probably isnt the right topic for it, so again apologies to verminstar.

 

[Pyrotiger]

Variations on a theme? Kind of, but only kind of. It's a little more complicated, that's why the trouble has dragged on for so many years. In many respects, it's a quite unique set of circumstances that is not typical to Belgium, France etc. Some parallels with Bosnia, but only some.

Also, you would have made a very good British Secretary of State for NI back in the day - having absolutely no understanding of the issues involved

You cannot Google the problem and just 'get it'.

- - - Updated - - -

This is obviously an important issue for him and you did just wade in with no understanding of the issues and then tell him effectively stop complaining or do something about it otherwise he gets what he deserves. This is nothing to do with populism and all that. Google 'The troubles' and you will understand why he snapped at you.

You're learning quickly

 

[Stigbob]

This problem is effectively a political spat over a badly implemented environmental/agricultural subsidy, which some people have taken advantage of for money. This isn't a new thing it happens a lot in a lot of places. It's led to a political falling out including the resignation of Martin McGuinness which will probably trigger a snap election and a political reshuffle. People are worried this could torpedo the peace process and lead back to the troubles.

However there is a silver lining to all this.

Everyone (seems) to agree it's a political issue around the implementation and investigation of the badly thought through subsidy. Nobodies using it to claim they've been attacked or sidelined, everyone (pretty much) agrees it needs to be sorted out through political means. Right now it looks like it's bringing people together against political incompetence and lack of accountability. If the peace process survives this (I think it will) it will lead to a more transparent, accountable and therefore trustworthy and popular political system.

Which can only be a good thing (I hope).

 

[DoctorDanny]

As a more general thought, I am getting very bored with the whole 'the people's confidence in the elite is at an all time low!' talk. Considering the efforts of 'the people' to improve anything has rarely extended beyond 'whining in the pub', I cant say I have less confidence in 'the elite' than in 'the people'. If the Irish people have a problem with something, maybe they should do something. Like go into politics. But as that means making an effort, I am sure we'll just going to see a lot of angry tweets and facebook posts. And after that its back to beer, football and computer games.

We all get the leaders we deserve...

I agree with your post for the most part. The vocal underbelly is is getting more and more annoying all over Europe.
OP does raise a valid point though that voter apathy is a thing that can really lead to problems.
When a large group of moderates no longer feels represented and either doesn't vote or starts voting extremes the whole political system is at risks.

 

[verminstar]

Fair enough. I should have been more sensitive, so apologies to Verminstar. But that wasn't my point at all. My point is (and I do have an idea what this is about, or I like to believe so) that this is not a unique event that is typically Irish. Look at any western democracies, the US or the EU, and you'll find dozens if not hundreds of variations on this theme. My country is up for elections in two months. I am not aware of a modern democracy with so many registered parties, yet I'd be hard pressed to name three that I'd trust. The overwhelming majority of people dont trust what we're offered. And this is the same everywhere. There are many possible futures, but I dont see all too many happy endings. And we either act real soon, or its going to be too late. I despise populism, but thats not an argument for withdrawal in disgust.

And again, its a general musing. Which probably isnt the right topic for it, so again apologies to verminstar.

No apology needed...its an internet forum and this situation is different from the other recent problems. This is not a case of the people simply being fed up with their glorious leaders, its a case of the politicians being unable to agree on the colour of crap and the entire execuctive has collapsed because of it. The wrongs done are not imagined by the common folk, the politicians really have messed up in the worst possible way, and we the ones left with the mess.

Going into politics...I suppose I should answer this a little as things are a little different here. First off, Im not intellectually smart enough...Im not totally dense either, but I am smart enough to stay away from politics. Im disabled and have very strong views on the current drug laws, as in I dont agree with them. I break those laws every single day of my life and have done fer decades...I have a record going back into the 80s and 90s and records have a habit of making the waters muddy. My past stays in the past and I prefer to stay under the radar as it were.

However...this being the internet, and me ranting about it was literally setting meself up fer a fall. I would say its a misunderstanding and offer my own apology fer being snarky in the response. Seriously though...I know we dont hit the 6 ocloock news anymore, but a quick google search will tell ye that the entire political situation here in in crisis and on the verge of collapse. This is really not the same sorta common revolt or populist defiance as seen in other recent events...this is a genuine case of political failure at the highest level.

- - - Updated - - -

This problem is effectively a political spat over a badly implemented environmental/agricultural subsidy, which some people have taken advantage of for money. This isn't a new thing it happens a lot in a lot of places. It's led to a political falling out including the resignation of Martin McGuinness which will probably trigger a snap election and a political reshuffle. People are worried this could torpedo the peace process and lead back to the troubles.

However there is a silver lining to all this.

Everyone (seems) to agree it's a political issue around the implementation and investigation of the badly thought through subsidy. Nobodies using it to claim they've been attacked or sidelined, everyone (pretty much) agrees it needs to be sorted out through political means. Right now it looks like it's bringing people together against political incompetence and lack of accountability. If the peace process survives this (I think it will) it will lead to a more transparent, accountable and therefore trustworthy and popular political system.

Which can only be a good thing (I hope).

Ye put it into words better than I, but yeah...ye understand the issue well and will confirm this has unified many sides which would not have been unified otherwise. This is not some political football that gets debated over and argued over...unfortunately its a bit more serious than that. If the executive collapses, then there wont be any more discussion or debating, there will be action and reaction of a very different kind.

 

[samuelb]

As a more general thought, I am getting very bored with the whole 'the people's confidence in the elite is at an all time low!' talk. Considering the efforts of 'the people' to improve anything has rarely extended beyond 'whining in the pub', I cant say I have less confidence in 'the elite' than in 'the people'. If the Irish people have a problem with something, maybe they should do something. Like go into politics. But as that means making an effort, I am sure we'll just going to see a lot of angry tweets and facebook posts. And after that its back to beer, football and computer games.

We all get the leaders we deserve...

It is ignorance like this which leads to the kind of the nonsense we see in N.I.

Did the Germans deserve Hitler?, The Russians Stalin?, The Belgians Leopold II?, The Ugandans Idi Amin?, The Zimbabweans Robert Mugabe?

Your use of the term "boredom" also speaks volumes about you and your character. You are either a troll or a very misinformed, uneducated misanthrope.

I would not bother writing a response, I can hear it now - full of vitriole, spite and malice as well as a sense of knowing best. I will not come back to this thread to read it, be rest assured.

Go ahead and write it anyway, you will just reinforce your own nature.