Battle of wits - protracted battle?

Its been asked before, but I've not seen an answer.

Will the possibility for a protracted "battle of wits" between two ships exist in the game?

I'm talking about perhaps 2 ships meeting, possibly in deep space, and after sustaining damage one attempts to run and hide where it can effect repairs, while the other ship attempts to re-establish contact and hunt it down.

The whole battle of wits, "He did exactly what I would have done.... I won't underestimate him again!" thing. :)

I think the existing combat looks great, but the addition of a kind of WW2 Submarine vs Destroyer encounter would be a very exciting addition.

Pinggggggg.............GAH! :)
 
Oh I hope so. Your hyperspace drive is damaged so your only hope is to super cruise to the nearest asteroid belt, and hope to hide in low power mode until you can effect a temporary repair. All the while you opponent has followed you to the belt and is searching, desperately hunting that flickering sensor ping. :)

Sounds good to me.
 
I've kinda already seen this in the Asteroid fields. Being outgunned, I blasted off to hide. Manged to get a few rocks between us, went cold, and changed direction. Hid till the guy went off the other way, then zipped out and flew back to the station.

Brilliant fun.
 
I've kinda already seen this in the Asteroid fields. Being outgunned, I blasted off to hide. Manged to get a few rocks between us, went cold, and changed direction. Hid till the guy went off the other way, then zipped out and flew back to the station.

Brilliant fun.

Cool, that's the sort of thing I mean, but on a larger scale, like Thunderchief said, with one ship desperately trying to effect repairs before the enemy ship tracked it down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3iN-JlyYxE

That would be a bit beyond the scope of the game, but you know what I mean. :)
 
Hm. One way that this could be done:

If you made it so that ships had invulnerable or nearly invulnerable hulls the combat dynamics change quite a lot: subsystems suddenly matter (they almost never seem to matter at all right now, at least during combat). Someone under attack has a new option: they can change their ship's orientation to protect important systems. Fights would pretty rarely end in a pilot being killed, but would usually result in ships being disabled. Piracy would be a case of shooting out a ship's engines and then taking out the cargo doors.

Killing other players would still be possible, but you'd have to shoot out the life support, which would usually mean disabling the ship first.

Add in a tracker that can be attached to ships, and now it's possible to chase damaged ships around. That means it can be made so that ships usually escape to supercruise when first engaged. Camping out choke points like outside stations will no longer be an effective tactic. (In fact, a great deal of possible griefing techniques cease to be effective). System authorities have a chance to rescue players and change the outcome for victims.

Bounties would probably need to be collected by a capture mechanic rather than just killing them. They'd also need to increase to match the increased time investment required to get one. Crimes like murder could have a much more sensibly sized bounty attached to them, and because it's now more usual to take criminals in alive, there could be a new 'dead or alive' bounty type.

Occasionally an aggressor might accidentally shoot out their opponent's life support. If penalties for murder are high enough, you might get a whole new dynamic where they now have to try to save their opponent's life...

Costs are mainly now about ship repairs. Insurance is no longer an issue as if a player can't afford repairs they can limp around for a while with a damaged ship instead of just losing everything. It becomes possible to recognise a player who is down on their luck (flying a wrecked ship) and be 'honourable' if playing a pirate.

I'm really sceptical anything like this would ever happen (however, for me, after my experience with the beta, a change of at least this magnitude is required for me to ever consider playing this game multiplayer again. I don't feel the issues I've experienced are fixable with a mere rebalancing).
 
Hm. One way that this could be done:

If you made it so that ships had invulnerable or nearly invulnerable hulls the combat dynamics change quite a lot:.

Okay, but with respect, you are I gather pretty unhappy with the current combat. I can only go on what I've seen, but I think it looks very cool, so I'm thinking in terms of extending the current combat possibilities rather than replacing them.

But following along with what you've said:

David has spoken of larger ships for exploring that would take a long time to actually acquire. So assuming we are going to have these Big Ships to play with, supposing firepower and armour don't increase at the same rate when increased in size. So a very big ship, with very thick armour/shields and very big guns that is 10 times the size of a Cobra, has (for example) 6x the armour and 2x as powerful weapons as are available for the Cobra.

But the ship's systems are still comparatively vulnerable, so The Dread Pirate Commander Angus, says "Ahoy, maties! We've spotted a Panther Clipper doubtless filled to the gizzards with Arcturian doubloons.. Battle stations it is me hearties!"

They jump the Panther and target the Hyperdrive, successfully putting it offline, with the result that the Panther is going nowhere beyond the current system anytime soon.

Rejecting the offer to surrender, the Panther's Captain returns fire and luckily scores a surprise hit on the pirate's navigation systems, thus buying himself some time. He flees into the nebula/asteroid belt/gas giant/plantary atmosphere he has been charting, rigs the Panther for silent running and seeks a safe bolt hole to repair the drive.

Angus, rather embarassed by his fumbled attack grumpily tells the crew to fix the ship's navigation, a relatively trivial task, after which he begins his face saving search for vengeance.

Could that work in principle?
 
I've always wanted to engage in a battle of wits.

I just need to find someone witless enough!

Ask at the friend of the father of Blethigg. He knows of the people

Blethigg said:
My dad told me that he had a friend who liked to say:
"I'd love to start a battle of wits with you, but it's against my principles to fight unarmed men."
:p

:p
 
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Okay, but with respect, you are I gather pretty unhappy with the current combat. I can only go on what I've seen, but I think it looks very cool, so I'm thinking in terms of extending the current combat possibilities rather than replacing them.

But following along with what you've said:

(SNIP awesome scenario description)

Could that work in principle?

That sounds a lot like the sort of scenario I'd like to see. What I've found is that my feelings on losing a fight is 'not again. This sucks', and I think if the game has PvP that this shouldn't be the case because it means that 50% of the players in a PvP scenario aren't having fun (yes, I'm assuming everyone has the same experience of losing to PvP as me, but I think that's not a bad bet right now looking at other forum threads).

I'm replaying FreeSpace 2 at the moment. There's a bit where the Colossus is facing down the Sathanas. You're in command of a bomber wing. The scenario is set up so that you're completely outmatched: you're supposed to slow the Sathanas down and preferably take out some of it's weapons, but the designers intended the two capital ships reach each other and fight.

By switching your loadouts to anti-subsystem weapons and being careful, it's possible to totally disable the Sathanas instead. It's way more difficult than what you're supposed to do (which is already meant to be pretty tough), and it feels amazing to actually do it (not letting your resupply ship get destroyed is critical - you need a pretty much constant supply of bombs). The game eventually starts playing the Colossus's 'we're taking critical damage' scripted events, even though the ship is sitting there completely helpless, which is fairly hilarious.

It's awesome that the mechanics let this happen once you get skilled enough at the game, but there's something more important: to get to this point, I had to play this scenario multiple times, and attack the Sathanas not through the designed-in weak spot, but through its strongest defenses. So I died a lot. Not once did I think 'not again. This sucks', or even give up because I was trying something that was supposed to actually be impossible by the rules of the game. Every time I worked out how to get a bit further and it spurred me on. Every death meant the next time was different. All good PvP games have this feel to them.

I find a lot of the single-player mechanics of Elite are similar. They're hard, and you generally don't succeed on the first try, but it's generally pretty clear why you're failing. The combat mechanics are not like this, though, especially in PvP scenarios. It feels like it's possible to be better at them, but not only is there little 'feel' for what you can do better, but it also takes a very long time to go from a death (or from successfully fleeing) back to the action. The high penalty for failure is kind of irritating as well. Death by combat has a 'not again. This sucks' thing going on, and it doesn't feel to me like it's just balance. If a game is otherwise good, I actually quite like it when the odds are stacked against me - that's why I spent time taking down the Sathanas in the most difficult way possible. That's also why I'd quite like to see a good multiplayer implementation in Elite, and why I'm so disappointed in what I've seen. The flight mechanics feel great, but when you die - especially to another player - there's no real feel for what's going on, no 'I should have done this instead'. It's just irritating.

My thoughts about changing combat to be more about subsystems come from there: not only does it make it so a great pilot in a tiny ship can take down a bad one in one that's huge and horribly beweaponed but it also tries to give a novice pilot who is in the process of losing a fight some feedback so that they don't think 'not again. This sucks', but 'I shouldn't have done that. Next time will be different'. Almost as a side benefit, it also allows for the scenario where evenly matched pilots wind up in a much more involved battle. I was also trying to avoid the usual suggestions (like a PvP off flag) that seem to be considered as against the intended flavour of the game.
 
It would be nice in a fantasy game if something like this could actually happen.

Several factors will not allow this type of game play and excitement unless it gets pre planned and setup to make some video for some streamer.

The factors that will prevent this type of excitement and game play? Not going into it because it would created a huge war. And the moderators are too sensitive.

if you have played any type of online shooter and have a bit of wisdom due to age, you will understand the game mechanics that influence against this type of great play.

It is fun to wish, and folks can till setup scenarios to make this happen, though spontaneous...it would never happen.
 
The factors that will prevent this type of excitement and game play? Not going into it because it would created a huge war. And the moderators are too sensitive.

if you have played any type of online shooter and have a bit of wisdom due to age, you will understand the game mechanics that influence against this type of great play.

I don't really understand that. As you've not provided any reasoning for your assertion I' can't really accept it, unless you feel like sharing?

So, anybody else, I'm also interested in the views of people with access to the Premium Beta, is my prolonged combat, "battle of wits" scenario outlined in post #7 of this thread feasible?

Some reasoning would be appreciated. :)
 
Once we see how detecting ships under FSD works, this sort of protracted "age-of-sail" naval battle element may well be found there.

As for the dogfighting, I've had drawn out fights with NPCs that have lasted minutes, and felt like half an hour with me on the edge of the seat with tension and excitement.
 
Once we see how detecting ships under FSD works, this sort of protracted "age-of-sail" naval battle element may well be found there.

You say "age-of-sail" and I know exactly what you mean, but did you ever see the old series Star Trek episode "Balance of Terror"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZNPkyXJ8KA


But then in fairness to your point, the series was designed withmore than a passing interest in the Hornblower books.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad-hYMmvctY

So has something been said about developing detection systems in Super Cruise? Is there anywhere I can read about it? Cheers.
 
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