[PvE] The "ideal" hardpoint layout for PvE combat?

[Red Fox Four]

Disclaimer: This is regarding PvE combat. I know there PvP is a different approach primarily focused on the current meta.

So I really need to ask this cause after tinkering around in ED Shipyard (http://www.edshipyard.com/) many times with different ships I seem to always end up with the same result when it comes to hardpoint selection.

Lasers to strip shields.
Multicannons to finish them after shields are down.

Depending on ship, your distributor and power the type of laser may vary. E.g. my Viper Mk3 uses 2 x C1 Bursts while my FdL uses 2 x C2 Beams. However... the layout is the same... lasers to strip shields.

As for the multi-cannons to finish their hull I know some people prefer cannons. However when doing the math the multi-cannons "win" over the cannons because multicannons have more ammo and can do more damage total (ammo * damage per shot) than cannons and thus require less return trips to rearm.

So my question is really coming down to this.

Is there any reason whatsoever (again, in PvE combat) to bring missiles, railguns, plasma accelerators, fragment cannons, torpedos and all that jazz to a PvE fight instead of "Lasers+Multicannon" ?

Sure using missiles is fancy and fun... but a 2B Seeker missile hardpoint only does 960 damage total as it only has 24 missiles. Meanwhile a 2F (fixed) multicannon will do 4818 damage total. This means Seeker missiles, as far as PvE goes, will completely cripple your endurance in combat (i.e. how long you can stay out there before having to rearm). Likewise other weapon systems like dumbfire missiles are equally poor giving you "only" 3000 total damage before needing to rearm. Torpedoes are absolutely worst with only 2 shots and 120 damage. The best "bang for the buck" is Packhound missiles but even with those your total damage output is only 3960, still less than multicannons, and you are shooting more expensive ammunition (not to mention cost of Packhound missile launcher compared to a Fixed Multicannon, in addition to the Powerplay grind to unlock the packhound in the first place).

Looking at the math for all the different weapons that use ammunition the numbers are terrible. Multi-cannons *always* come out on top as the highest total damage potential before needing to rearm... not to mention they are also more forgiving with respect to missing shots... one miss with a multicannon affects the total damage potential very little, while missing with a missile, rail gun, cannon or plasma accelerator affects your damage potential substantially, especially for missiles.

Granted.... there are other factors at play such as penetration of armor/hull and so forth.

But to that I say... in PvE who cares?

I have no need to penetrate to kill modules in the ship. If anything you simply target the Power Plant and keep firing your multi-cannons at it. I have no need to knock out the FSD, or drives, or hardpoints, or the shield generator and so forth. They die fast enough from multi-cannons anyhow.

Everytime I am in ED Shipyard I tinker with my ships and make some not-"Laser&Multicannon" setups... but everytime it comes down to the fact that you simply gimp your endurance by having to fly back to rearm more frequently without really gaining an advantage in firepower or improving your efficiency at all.

Does anyone really use missiles in PvE ?
Or Railguns?
Or Plasma Accelerators?

 

[MassiveD]

Disclaimer: This is regarding PvE combat. I know there PvP is a different approach primarily focused on the current meta.

So I really need to ask this cause after tinkering around in ED Shipyard (http://www.edshipyard.com/) many times with different ships I seem to always end up with the same result when it comes to hardpoint selection.

Lasers to strip shields.
Multicannons to finish them after shields are down.

Depending on ship, your distributor and power the type of laser may vary. E.g. my Viper Mk3 uses 2 x C1 Bursts while my FdL uses 2 x C2 Beams. However... the layout is the same... lasers to strip shields.

As for the multi-cannons to finish their hull I know some people prefer cannons. However when doing the math the multi-cannons "win" over the cannons because multicannons have more ammo and can do more damage total (ammo * damage per shot) than cannons and thus require less return trips to rearm.

So my question is really coming down to this.

Is there any reason whatsoever (again, in PvE combat) to bring missiles, railguns, plasma accelerators, fragment cannons, torpedos and all that jazz to a PvE fight instead of "Lasers+Multicannon" ?

Sure using missiles is fancy and fun... but a 2B Seeker missile hardpoint only does 960 damage total as it only has 24 missiles. Meanwhile a 2F (fixed) multicannon will do 4818 damage total. This means Seeker missiles, as far as PvE goes, will completely cripple your endurance in combat (i.e. how long you can stay out there before having to rearm). Likewise other weapon systems like dumbfire missiles are equally poor giving you "only" 3000 total damage before needing to rearm. Torpedoes are absolutely worst with only 2 shots and 120 damage. The best "bang for the buck" is Packhound missiles but even with those your total damage output is only 3960, still less than multicannons, and you are shooting more expensive ammunition (not to mention cost of Packhound missile launcher compared to a Fixed Multicannon, in addition to the Powerplay grind to unlock the packhound in the first place).

Looking at the math for all the different weapons that use ammunition the numbers are terrible. Multi-cannons *always* come out on top as the highest total damage potential before needing to rearm... not to mention they are also more forgiving with respect to missing shots... one miss with a multicannon affects the total damage potential very little, while missing with a missile, rail gun, cannon or plasma accelerator affects your damage potential substantially, especially for missiles.

Granted.... there are other factors at play such as penetration of armor/hull and so forth.

But to that I say... in PvE who cares?

I have no need to penetrate to kill modules in the ship. If anything you simply target the Power Plant and keep firing your multi-cannons at it. I have no need to knock out the FSD, or drives, or hardpoints, or the shield generator and so forth. They die fast enough from multi-cannons anyhow.

Everytime I am in ED Shipyard I tinker with my ships and make some not-"Laser&Multicannon" setups... but everytime it comes down to the fact that you simply gimp your endurance by having to fly back to rearm more frequently without really gaining an advantage in firepower or improving your efficiency at all.

Does anyone really use missiles in PvE ?
Or Railguns?
Or Plasma Accelerators?

All incindiery round multicannons with either overcharged or rappid fire, 1 multicannon with corrosive, kill elite condas / corvettes in under 10 seconds.

Elite: Muticannons are Dangerous, everything else - lol eveything else

 

[n4p0l3on]

pulse/burst + multicannon are the most efficient combo for pve.

 

[Kyokushin]

For PvE its no big matter. Just play as you like. If you like lasers, use them, if multi's, play with them.

 

[MassiveD]

pulse/burst + multicannon are the most efficient combo for pve.

False, IR MC's with overcharged or rappid fire strip shields way faster than any laser could.

Lasers only matter in PvP, and usually do to experimental effects

 

[Washi]

Lasers to strip shields.
Multicannons to finish them after shields are down.

That is a flawed approach. Why are you splitting your dps? You are only shooting with lasers untill the shields are down? You could kill them a lot quicker if you just fired all your weapons all the time. That is why incendiary MC are so good. They have efficiency of multicannons but do thermal damage (which is strictly better for pve).

 

[Red Fox Four]

That is a flawed approach. Why are you splitting your dps? You are only shooting with lasers untill the shields are down? You could kill them a lot quicker if you just fired all your weapons all the time. That is why incendiary MC are so good. They have efficiency of multicannons but do thermal damage (which is strictly better for pve).

Fair point, but I don't have Incendiary MC's yet.

If/when I get them then sure, I'll probably run a pure MC setup rather using energy weapons for shields.

 

[Nerwan]

All incindiery round multicannons with either overcharged or rappid fire, 1 multicannon with corrosive, kill elite condas / corvettes in under 10 seconds.

Elite: Muticannons are Dangerous, everything else - lol eveything else

You're right MCs are clearly the easy mode winner at the moment for PVE. However, they're really boring. I'm using 4 low heat rails for PVE at the moment and a huge efficient PA. Much more fun and I can still kill elite conda's extremely quickly. I've also been using a vulture with two pacifiers.. that's a lot of fun and very quick. The high capacity mod means you can kill a lot of ships with pacifiers now and get 6 shots per burst.

 

[MassiveD]

You're right MCs are clearly the easy mode winner at the moment for PVE. However, they're really boring. I'm using 4 low heat rails for PVE at the moment and a huge efficient PA. Much more fun and I can still kill elite conda's extremely quickly. I've also been using a vulture with two pacifiers.. that's a lot of fun and very quick. The high capacity mod means you can kill a lot of ships with pacifiers now and get 6 shots per burst.

the question was ideal setup, not fun setup.

My fun setups are stealth-minebombers

 

[Non Grata]

As above, I've never understood why people willingly give up nearly 50% of their dps with the beam/multi thing.

 

[goemon]

i think you are generally right, but of course there are usecases for other weapons pve.

- frags: if you want to kill something fast, and don't mind to rearm often. USS bounty hunting for BGS reasons, or assassination missions.

- ships with small power distributor. i love the DBS... two small cannons allow me to hit above my class, while running a medium beam (which is more efficient than two smalls) and a medium mc. same goes for my eagle - a small cannon is your only chance to kill a conda in less than an hour...

- ships with a lot of small hardpoints or bad hardpoint placement (cobra, AspE) are perfect for missiles - those come in only one size (the missiles not the rack)

so, yes, i use cannons, frags and missiles in pve. i also use plasmas and railguns - for a challenge basically - for fun

 

[goemon]

As above, I've never understood why people willingly give up nearly 50% of their dps with the beam/multi thing.

beams aren't bad against hulls. they have a good penetration, and they pop powerplants much faster than a MC or burst.

i would never stop firing my beam(s) after shields are down.

also getting shield down fast might (depending on your ship) help you more than getting down the full ship down fast. because you can than target moduls ... if you like small ships like me, a full MC loadout on an eagle isn't as good (i have one) as a beam/MC/cannon combo... bit the same for a courier.

 

[fitzsteve]

The Pythons 3 Large and 2 Medium can be used in so many effective ways from 3 Large Pulse and 2 MC to fixes rails, frag cannons, you name it.

Perfect is what suits you, in PVE with the first mentioned layout most ships are easy pray as the 3 large pulses take out shields quickly, then you can recharge, re align and hit them with all 5 HP at once and with gimble tracking even a novice pilot should be taking out most ships with ease.

 

[Han_Zen]

the question was ideal setup, not fun setup.

My fun setups are stealth-minebombers

I have a Sidewinder with G5 Dirty enhanced thrusters and G5 OC Pulses(no specials). No shields. It's my favorite combat ship. Most fun.

 

[Non Grata]

beams aren't bad against hulls. they have a good penetration, and they pop powerplants much faster than a MC or burst.

i would never stop firing my beam(s) after shields are down.

also getting shield down fast might (depending on your ship) help you more than getting down the full ship down fast. because you can than target moduls ... if you like small ships like me, a full MC loadout on an eagle isn't as good (i have one) as a beam/MC/cannon combo... bit the same for a courier.

But you don't use your MC against the shields? If you don't then you're not getting them down as quick as you might, and if you do then the beam + MC argument is diluted for the shields as well as the hull.

 

[goemon]

But you don't use your MC against the shields? If you don't then you're not getting them down as quick as you might, and if you do then the beam + MC argument is diluted for the shields as well as the hull.

depends

against enemies with strong shields (compared to my firepower), or if they start spamming scb i use beams + MC to break the shields. otherwise i save ammo to stay longer in a CZ/RES or at a comp nav beacon.

on my DBS i sometimes even use MC + small cannons + beam as a desperate tool to get down an elite condas shield.

basically ammo is the limiting effectiveness of full MC loadouts ... and if you don't care about ammo, why not taking frags

 

[psyantologist]

Huge Fixed Cannon on an FdL is a pretty awesome module killer. Three hits and an Anacondas Powerplant is dead. I'm also pretty happy with 4 Medium Burst Lasers on top, modded to keep heat/power drain neat. The sturdy rails/efficient PA built mentioned above sounds like fun too though.

Cannons suffer less damage penalty than MCs; small cannons hit medium ships hard, medium cannons hit large ships hard.

I enjoyed small beams and medium MCs on my Cobra a lot though, back in the days...

 

[Rocky-451]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as the OP, finding bursts/beams + multicannons so effective that I don't use much else. However, the recent discussions about fixed vs gimballed and the buff given to the plasma accelerator prompted me to give this weapon a try. It turns out to be a lot of fun - hard to use, yes, but effective at close range. So now I tend to use the PA for assasination missions, where you want to deal max damage as quickly as possible. For CZ and RES farming, I go back to multicannons.

 

[n4p0l3on]

False, IR MC's with overcharged or rappid fire strip shields way faster than any laser could.

Lasers only matter in PvP, and usually do to experimental effects

I disagree, staying power > damage for pve

 

[Evoflash]

I tried a PVE Anaconda with all MC Grade 5 Overcharge, small one corrosive, rest incendiary.

Was fast killer, however I had serious overheating problems and would have to stop firing to let temps drop. Also I felt it was ammo waste vs smaller ships so I swapped the huge MC over for a G5 efficient beam. Granted its not as powerful, but I suffer much less heat issues with this layout. Only real gripe is the dither makes the beam highly inaccurate at distance.