PVP piracy - Destroyed three trader ships over 4t of cargo... help me understand

[Sylow]

I read later that a guy who tried to comply with their demands to save his T6 ended up having to drop all his cargo, then had his canopy cracked, was then forced to scoop his own cargo under fire with a cracked canopy, and was then butchered anyway.

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And now tell me how that guy might feel about those people, the game, open and everything this thread revolves about?
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I think you just gave an excellent example why people rather both simply loose their ship and leave open.
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[Globusdiablo]

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And now tell me how that guy might feel about those people, the game, open and everything this thread revolves about?
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I think you just gave an excellent example why people rather both simply loose their ship and leave open.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe he was exaggerating to make a point.

 

[Crook]

I can tell you that I'd rather die, and I'll try to explain why (although I've never met a pirate)

I don't like the gameplay. There's no real crime / punishment system, so I don't want to engage in the gameplay, and anyone who does I think is wishing the game was something it isn't.

It's trivial to blow someone up, and relatively trivial to rebuy. There's usually no real loss to being blown up. If it happened to me, it would be an annoyance and getting in the way of me enjoying the game as I see fit. I don't want to roleplay it, and wouldn't trust that after 4t was dropped I wouldn't be blown up anyway, so it would just be a sigh, I'm on rails to being killed, let's just get it over with.

I don't even know how to drop cargo. I assume it's the right panel somewhere and select the cargo and drop 4t, but I don't really know. Never used it.

The game as it stands doesn't justify piracy. There's no real penalty for killing, or for being blown up. So a pirate encounter only goes down well when both parties are role playing and 'into it'. And as we all know, there are too many people who just kill for kicks or are untrustworthy. I mean, MOST of the community is so distrustful of others that they would probably vote against ship naming because they think that the names of the ships by the community would be offensive.

 

[StiTch]

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And now tell me how that guy might feel about those people, the game, open and everything this thread revolves about?
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I think you just gave an excellent example why people rather both simply loose their ship and leave open.
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And meanwhile, the majority of players CLing on entirely legit pirates is 100% a-okay fine interaction that needs no tweaking?

Of course bad things happen in Open. I dare you to give me one-game with PvP combat that can happen anywhere any time where no-one in its history was subject to a random attack. My bro plays Runescape where people are regularly tricked into PvP ambushes, and heaven damn forbid that playerbase of mostly early teens take it like bigger men than the playerbase here, which includes a great deal of older players.

ED, you just have a cycle of "something bad" happens -> playerbase erupts into paranoid hysteria -> everyone be CLing -> confrontational PvPers of any kind take an increasingly aggressive stance -> rinse/repeat. Notions that players will let this happen out of fear they will be blown up anyway run in both directions...

 

[Snarfbuckle]

The game as it stands doesn't justify piracy. There's no real penalty for killing, or for being blown up. .

I agree, and not just as a victim, the loot is hardly worth the time scooping it.

And the payout from the black market is also not very useful.

The only way to really profit from piracy would be in BULK and that cant really be done and basically ANY other profession is more profitable.

Hell, getting paid MISSIONS to commit piracy and smuggling is better and that essentially mean you are a corporate pirate employee.

 

[StevieG]

So I was pirating at the Parun CG last night and had 6, or so, customers. My demands were: drop 4t (four!) of cargo. I've stated demands before opening fire (and waited for a response) and then repeatedly while firing at the target. I let players go if they dropped cargo even if they tried to run first (other pirates may not).

But: Some players chose to be destroyed rather than dropping 4t. They are in Open with the chance of piracy and when someone comes along with very reasonable demands they seem to prefer losing their ship over it??

Help me understand.... Why?

Why you killing them? Take down their shields, disable their thrusters and use your cargo hatch limpets! Or are you just pretending to be a pirate?

 

[StiTch]

The game as it stands doesn't justify piracy. .

As long as Elite is a free-roaming "sandbox" style game where "play how you want" applies, no-one needs to justify anything.

When kept real by both sides, pirating can be immense fun. And last I checked, was fun not why you play this game? Because if not I advise you put it down.

Believe it or not, something that used to be more common on these forums was people raising posts to say how happy they were with their resident pirate. "Got pirated, thoroughly lovely bloke, dropped him some slaves and we went about our way".

You have 100% the right outlook on how to handle it - if you aren't prepared to drop cargo, try make a getaway or accept defeat (and if a pirate isn't prepared for the runner woe be to him!). But you'd be amazed at the snowball effect created by players that indignantly "refuse to be anyone else's content" and CL as a result, despite the fact that in an Open environment by definition we are all each other's content, and pirating is an entirely legit playstyle. So in these cases, it's the CLer that "stops people playing how they want".

Why you killing them? Take down their shields, disable their thrusters and use your cargo hatch limpets! Or are you just pretending to be a pirate?

People can pirate how they choose - as Truesilver highlights above, some pirates became notorious for their actions and the fear factor becomes their piracy tool.

Legit players will also often stop running when they realise the damage the pirate can do and are prepared for the situation.

It's not so viable any more because of the association with aggressive players, but if it's how OP chooses to pirate...

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Why you killing them? Take down their shields, disable their thrusters and use your cargo hatch limpets! Or are you just pretending to be a pirate?

I can understand why.

- make demand
- take out shields
- take out engines
- target still shooting at me
- still trying to engage FSD
- refuse to drop cargo

Now, I could use cargo hatch limpets but right now someone is actually ATTACKING me after I have demanded their surrender AND already disabled their means of escaping.

I can understand defiance but this is like shooting a man in the legs after warning him about it and once up close he tries to crawl away AND decides to aim a gun at my head.
If i give him enough time to aim and shoot he might kill me - AND i have told him repeatedly I ONLY want a few dollars from his wallet and he would then be free to go.

Much of this is that the game needs improvement in the whole crime/piracy/punishment system to add better gameplay.

 

[Truesilver]

I guess it's the same reason that (again when a new player) when I was interdicted by the dreaded Cosmic State in Leesti, 3v1, I just told them to "bring it". Contrary to my expectations, they let me go with kind words.

I read later that a guy who tried to comply with their demands to save his T6 ended up having to drop all his cargo, then had his canopy cracked, was then forced to scoop his own cargo under fire with a cracked canopy, and was then butchered anyway.

I think you just gave an excellent example why people rather both simply loose their ship and leave open.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe he was exaggerating to make a point.

I will correct you, sir!

The incident I refer to was discussed extensively at the time (early 2015), including on reddit, and iirc correctly was widely cited by The Code during their player war with Cosmic State, as an indicator as to why (it was said) non-psychopathic pirates were better rulers of Leesti than the alternative ... sadistic torturers with no interest in cargo save as a vehicle for torture.

(Note that I am not commenting on the veracity of the respective propaganda machines - just stating that I am not intentionally exaggerating! I loved participating in the player-driven Leesti war, so I recall it all reasonably well.)

But note that here we risk veering off-topic and I don't want to be responsible for a derail. The point I was making was that (in a computer game) some of us would rather stand up to people than be ordered around.

 

[Sylow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe he was exaggerating to make a point.

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I doubt that. Based on the factual and rather clear postings TrueSilver generally makes, i think he doesn't need to exaggerate to make a point, so why should he do so here?
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And meanwhile, the majority of players CLing on entirely legit pirates is 100% a-okay fine interaction that needs no tweaking?

Of course bad things happen in Open. I dare you to give me one-game with PvP combat that can happen anywhere any time where no-one in its history was subject to a random attack. My bro plays Runescape where people are regularly tricked into PvP ambushes, and heaven damn forbid that playerbase of mostly early teens take it like bigger men than the playerbase here, which includes a great deal of older players.

ED, you just have a cycle of "something bad" happens -> playerbase erupts into paranoid hysteria -> everyone be CLing -> confrontational PvPers of any kind take an increasingly aggressive stance -> rinse/repeat. Notions that players will let this happen out of fear they will be blown up anyway run in both directions...

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Uh? Pleeeeease, tell me where i wrote anything like that. Anywhere, ever! Sorry, but we might have a case of "is not 100% of my opinion, so it must be my worst enemy" here?
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Nowhere do i ever say that CL is justified. All i wrote is that i can understand, based on such incidents, that "pirates" got a bad reputation. If pirates grief those who play along, who could still expect people to play along? Who could expect them to still respect "player pirates", or to just stay in open? This is what i said. Yes, bad apples and everything, but there's plenty or reports of such things happening around. There are "good PvPers", but there's enough bad apples to spoil it all, too. Not all of those reports can be wrong. I mean, TrueSilver is an active PvPer, and one of the honorable kind which i respect a lot. And still he sees reason to include the description of the worst case scenario in his posting. Who am i to doubt that, considering his track record?
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[...]
People can pirate how they choose - as Truesilver highlights above, some pirates became notorious for their actions and the fear factor becomes their piracy tool.
[...]

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Uh, WHAT? Wow, we must have a forum bug here, the posting from TrueSilver must read completely different to you than to me. For me the example reads as this: They first acted to be pirates, but unfortunately the target thought they would be pirates and played along. So they had to switch to griefplay. But hey, if you think that your next victim is more likely to play along, after you just made an such an example of what happens to somebody who plays along, it might actually be true that you -think- so. Anybody with brain and reason might think otherwise, but hey, don't let that stop you?
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I mean, perhaps i read that completely wrong and probably there is a certain kind of people out there, who when they learn that cooperation gets them punished, they are all too eager to play along, but sorry, as far as i know if you are into S&M, then you might find communities better fit for that than the one here.
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[StiTch]

Nowhere do i ever say that CL is justified. All i wrote is that i can understand, based on such incidents, that "pirates" got a bad reputation. If pirates grief those who play along, who could still expect people to play along? Who could expect them to still respect "player pirates", or to just stay in open? This is what i said. Yes, bad apples and everything, but there's plenty or reports of such things happening around. There are "good PvPers", but there's enough bad apples to spoil it all, too. Not all of those reports can be wrong. I mean, TrueSilver is an active PvPer, and one of the honorable kind which i respect a lot. And still he sees reason to include the description of the worst case scenario in his posting. Who am i to doubt that, considering his track record?

'twas an aggressive way to put it forward but the point is that this is ruined on players both side of the fence. Posters on this forum though are very good at acting on just one side of the story out of personal bias.

Uh, WHAT? Wow, we must have a forum bug here, the posting from TrueSilver must read completely different to you than to me. For me the example reads as this: They first acted to be pirates, but unfortunately the target thought they would be pirates and played along. So they had to switch to griefplay. But hey, if you think that your next victim is more likely to play along, after you just made an such an example of what happens to somebody who plays along, it might actually be true that you -think- so. Anybody with brain and reason might think otherwise, but hey, don't let that stop you?
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I mean, perhaps i read that completely wrong and probably there is a certain kind of people out there, who when they learn that cooperation gets them punished, they are all too eager to play along, but sorry, as far as i know if you are into S&M, then you might find communities better fit for that than the one here.
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Could have mentioned it was only a subtle reference but there was mention of standing up even in the faces of "the legendary CMDR Bangfish" and "The Dreaded Cosmic State". If you can build that kinda reputation, that is cool from an RP perspective as it is but can be effective as a tool. I can't say I've ever been a legendary pirate, but people still respond to the bigger/more scary ship better provided they hang in the game.

But calling me out as one of the S&M players (though perhaps by no means untrue - we will never know ) means you're just as good at pinning random accusations on people. No offense intended on your direction though, just trying to encourage looking at both sides of the story rather than creating an ill-informed mob...which is all too common here.

 

[Crook]

As long as Elite is a free-roaming "sandbox" style game where "play how you want" applies, no-one needs to justify anything.

When kept real by both sides, pirating can be immense fun. And last I checked, was fun not why you play this game? Because if not I advise you put it down.

And if not 'kept real'? I think I'll decide what's fun in the game that I bought thanks. Piracy is unjustified. You have to go out of your way to do it, it's not profitable and for a lot of people it just gets in the way and is annoying. A player is supposed to enjoy that?


I think you hit it in your post - when kept real by BOTH sides. If it's not consentual, then it's not fun. That's why there are player groups like Mobius, and I'll always play there and not in open until the game is designed to better accomodate piracy.


May I steal and rewrite a phrase for the ED community to chant?






"Piracy is like sex. It's better when both sides say yes."

 

[Globusdiablo]

I will correct you, sir!

The incident I refer to was discussed extensively at the time (early 2015), including on reddit, and iirc correctly was widely cited by The Code during their player war with Cosmic State, as an indicator as to why (it was said) non-psychopathic pirates were better rulers of Leesti than the alternative ... sadistic torturers with no interest in cargo save as a vehicle for torture.

(Note that I am not commenting on the veracity of the respective propaganda machines - just stating that I am not intentionally exaggerating! I loved participating in the player-driven Leesti war, so I recall it all reasonably well.)

But note that here we risk veering off-topic and I don't want to be responsible for a derail. The point I was making was that (in a computer game) some of us would rather stand up to people than be ordered around.

I've been around since beta, and I've been shot at in Leesti, but don't recall the incident. Sounds like a scenario thought up by a, shall we say challenged individual?

But never mind. I'll prefer forum PvP any day.

I guess the short answer is that some can get away with portraying any event as true.... On a forum.



Btw.: If you know of footage, I would love to see it.

 

[NVNM]

I've interdicted traders at CGs before and demanded they tell me a joke...it didn't even need to be a good one an two thirds ran or combat logged. Figure that one out.

People hate PvP. Other communities call them carebears. vOv

 

[RhymeRhyme]

So I was pirating at the Parun CG last night and had 6, or so, customers. My demands were: drop 4t (four!) of cargo. I've stated demands before opening fire (and waited for a response) and then repeatedly while firing at the target. I let players go if they dropped cargo even if they tried to run first (other pirates may not).

But: Some players chose to be destroyed rather than dropping 4t. They are in Open with the chance of piracy and when someone comes along with very reasonable demands they seem to prefer losing their ship over it??

Help me understand.... Why?

I think some players just dont know that there is a chat funtion in the game and ignore whatever you tell them.

 

[BL1P]

So I was pirating at the Parun CG last night and had 6, or so, customers. My demands were: drop 4t (four!) of cargo. I've stated demands before opening fire (and waited for a response) and then repeatedly while firing at the target. I let players go if they dropped cargo even if they tried to run first (other pirates may not).

But: Some players chose to be destroyed rather than dropping 4t. They are in Open with the chance of piracy and when someone comes along with very reasonable demands they seem to prefer losing their ship over it??

Help me understand.... Why?

Because the rebuy is so low compared to the profits we make, assisted suicide is an option.

 

[Globusdiablo]

...I mean, perhaps i read that completely wrong and probably there is a certain kind of people out there, who when they learn that cooperation gets them punished, they are all too eager to play along, but sorry, as far as i know if you are into S&M, then you might find communities better fit for that than the one here.
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Thanks.

Spoiler

[video=youtube;RrNfHFYf6eU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrNfHFYf6eU[/video]

 

[StiTch]

And if not 'kept real'? I think I'll decide what's fun in the game that I bought thanks. Piracy is unjustified. You have to go out of your way to do it, it's not profitable and for a lot of people it just gets in the way and is annoying. A player is supposed to enjoy that?

I think you hit it in your post - when kept real by BOTH sides. If it's not consentual, then it's not fun. That's why there are player groups like Mobius, and I'll always play there and not in open until the game is designed to better accomodate piracy.

May I steal and rewrite a phrase for the ED community to chant?

"Piracy is like sex. It's better when both sides say yes."

And when one side doesn't want it, you know what that makes you.

If you think you can tell people how to have fun then sorry not sorry, you're a worse person than any ganker. Some of us get enjoyment out of far more than watching our credit counter go up. Hell, exploration can be put down to "repetitive honk/scan/move on for weeks for next to no money". Do you want to waltz into the DD discussions etc. and state "you're all wrong, you can't justify exploration as there's no purpose, stop it now!"?

So to summarise I don't care if you don't find it lacking, different styles for different people. What matters is that I enjoy it.

As for the consensual bit, again, moot discussion. Nothing in Open has to be consensual. Problem with that? Head to the ED site where it states "...or just hunt other CMDRs" as an activity. Piracy is accepted, there is a tool specific to it, and Open is about having a galaxy to play in where NPCs and PCs exist. Not just PvE with a few other CMDRs to ignore.

I would also like to point out that no matter what, comparing someone to a because you don't like their playstyle is frankly both disgusting and the most puerile argument ever. If you can't argue a point, try and have them lynched by using bad associations?

Be ashamed of yourself Trolls everywhere...

 

[Truesilver]

I've been around since beta, and I've been shot at in Leesti, but don't recall the incident. Sounds like a scenario thought up by a, shall we say challenged individual?

But never mind. I'll prefer forum PvP any day.

I guess the short answer is that some can get away with portraying any event as true.... On a forum.



Btw.: If you know of footage, I would love to see it.

A quick google has found one of the original reddit links. I can't post here is at it features a (once) well-known name ... but YHM!

 

[Sylow]

'twas an aggressive way to put it forward but the point is that this is ruined on players both side of the fence. Posters on this forum though are very good at acting on just one side of the story out of personal bias.

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Then sorry on that. Also, if you read other postings of me, i think you can see that i try not to be on either side of the fence. I see issues on both sides, but that was just one premium example how things got as bad as they are.
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Could have mentioned it was only a subtle reference but there was mention of standing up even in the faces of "the legendary CMDR Bangfish" and "The Dreaded Cosmic State". If you can build that kinda reputation, that is cool from an RP perspective as it is but can be effective as a tool. I can't say I've ever been a legendary pirate, but people still respond to the bigger/more scary ship better provided they hang in the game.

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Hmm. I didn't see that reference. I saw the example my posting was based upon, which very much was centered around a wing of three griefing a random player in a T6. I don't really see much of reputation gain in that, at least not on the positive side.
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But calling me out as one of the S&M players (though perhaps by no means untrue - we will never know ) means you're just as good at pinning random accusations on people. No offense intended on your direction though, just trying to encourage looking at both sides of the story rather than creating an ill-informed mob...which is all too common here.

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Hmm. Yea, when reading it again, is see what you mean. I thought that was written more along the line of a general you, but i see how it probably is understood differently. Please take my appologies for that.
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