Travel Needs to be Fun and Engaging

[xondk]

Do you people hear yourselves:

If you don't like forced combat every single mission, stop playing

If you don't like boring , soulless RNG grind, stop playing.

If you don't like non-interacting load screen travel, stop playing

If you don't like pointless grind, stop playing

If you dont like missions that involve nothing but aforementioned terrible, non interactive travel stop playing.

You DO realize that the "all I really care about is my press J to interact screensaver/Netflix combo" crowd isn't enough to sustain the ongoing development of this game, right? I mean, who DO you recommend this game for? People who want the additional sounds of a ships engines droning away in the background of Stranger Things?

Some of us want actual game play, you know.

That is a lot of assumptions on your part.
Let me try to rephrase it. Since all this seems to come from the understandable perspective, at least in my book, that you don't seem to understand.

If you are doing something, and you do not like it, the answer generally is, do not do it. Other may like it, but you do not, so do not do it, that doesn't mean others are wrong in liking it, or that you are wrong in disliking it, but that doesn't mean it should be changed either, especially if those disliking it are a minority, which they are according to the vote for transfer times, more clearly wanted it to take time, since it also would have reduced the size of the galaxy, whatever the more detailed reasons might be, that is where they put their x.

So.

If you don't like forced combat, do not do the missions that have combat in them, plenty of those around, you cannot expect however not to be attacked, that is part of the game, if you don't want to be attacked you are playing the wrong game, and should go play something else you enjoy. And no, I'm not saying this because I want to protect what I like, or anything, I'm genuinely saying it because you have so so so many other options, and shouldn't be doing something you dislike, that is not the point of games in my book. They are entertainment, and like any and all entertainment ever, what people like varies a great deal.

To you, something might seem as a grind that his boring, soulless RNG grinding, but to others it doesn't seem that way. Just like some people enjoy one food while others do not and in fact find it to be an abomination. Neither or you are wrong, but arguing about it is pointless and gets you absolutely nowhere, same with your other comments, Frontier should make the game they want to make, with of course community feedback which they are doing, and if you enjoy it, play it, if you don't do not, suggestions are always welcome, I've never seen anything to indicate otherwise, but to become so heated that you begin insulting people for their opinions because it is different then yours will not solve any problems you have with the game.

You say you want actual game play, well go find it then, the travel amongst other things is to find a place where you can do something you enjoy, and because it takes time to get there, it also means that the experience will be more unique, especially since will generally meet people that wanted to go there, as well, and not just people skipping around instantly from one hot spot to another, you can get actual engaging game play with other people, simply from having that in common.

But what do you have in common with 'everyone' if everyone can get everywhere fast? what is unique about situations when its easy to get to and everyone is there? when there is no commitment involved to doing something?

 

[Luniticisi]

Do you people hear yourselves:

If you don't like forced combat every single mission, stop playing

If you don't like boring , soulless RNG grind, stop playing.

If you don't like non-interacting load screen travel, stop playing

If you don't like pointless grind, stop playing

If you dont like missions that involve nothing but aforementioned terrible, non interactive travel stop playing.

You DO realize that the "all I really care about is my press J to interact screensaver/Netflix combo" crowd isn't enough to sustain the ongoing development of this game, right? I mean, who DO you recommend this game for? People who want the additional sounds of a ships engines droning away in the background of Stranger Things?

Some of us want actual game play, you know.

I don't like what community goals, power play, conflict zones, wings, pvp and some other stuff bring to the game .. and I partake in exactly none of them .. ever!
My point is simply if you don't like a part of the game either stop doing it or at least reduce the amount of whatever it is you don't like to make it more acceptable for you.

I get the point of reducing the loading screen time, but in my view the Hyperspace build up, before the countdown, doesn't count as part of the 'Loading screen' as you are in full control of the ship during that time.

Also I'm on my way to Sag A* and I never watch anything else whilst playing the game.

 

[Blackcompany]

What - EXACTLY - were you having fun DOING?

 

[MajorHavoc]

Thanks for the giggle [up]
We can do more than 1000 times light speed in system, and jump ranges are over 100Ly with engineering and boosts. But there is no fast travel? :S

What I meant was compared to games that let you instantly travel to places that you had already discovered ! Personally I find the current travel times nicely balanced and agree that being able to go 150lyrs in about ten seconds is plenty fast. I mean IRL I am doing about 600kps at the moment (not sure how fast the universe is going though) compared the FSDs' 600 million kps in system.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

What - EXACTLY - were you having fun DOING?

Playing the game the way we like to, not the way you say we should.

 

[HBK]

Yes, it is gameplay. It's gameplay you don't like and disagree with, but it's absolutely gameplay.

Loading screens are not gameplay.

 

[Blackcompany]

Eye Spy? (sorry I couldn't help myself lol)

Personally, I like that these things take time, it is one of the things that make the game feel unique. Your tedium is my enjoyment it seems. Game like ED should not cater for all player types .. it will become generic as with 99% of the games on the market these days.

Loading screens do not take that much time (always room for improvement tho), and probably only count for less that 5% of actual time realistically. You must be exaggerating right, else I would contact support as there may be something wrong on your connection? I am connecting from Australia too and other than the occasional lag out where the load screen make take 30secs between systems, it is normally quick-ish.

Could there be other 'things' going on when travelling? Sure, more content would be cool outside of the mandatory interdiction each system or dropping into a USS, but should remain flexible/optional not to turn back into the chain-interdiction issues we had last year.

I'm an explorer, I've seen a reasonable amount of the galaxy, much more than some, much less than others.
Yeah the time spent in witchspace can get tedious at times, and it would be nice to have a little variety every now and again, but here's the rub.... I also really like the lack of demand that long distance travel requires.
A couple of thousand light years for me is a chance to watch a streamer, chat with friends or catch up with a series I like on Netflix. It's "me" time where I can sit and think undisturbed, unless I want to be and where the only timeframe I need to worry about is my own.
Be careful what you wish for, they say, and in this case most definitely. Exploration and long distance travel is the one place in the game where you can unwind and take your time, and however you spice it up, you need to do it in a way that doesn't decimate a gameplay style that many of us, at times, prefer to be as bland and unspicey as possible.

I'm not saying that you're wrong to want to change it. Like I said, I've had times where the number of jumps to get to someplace interesting has seemed pretty daunting...I could have done with some means of either getting back automatically, or getting somewhere more interesting more quickly. But that's only every now and again, and the rest of the time I just want to drift on between the stars without worrying when the next npc or random encounter is going to bring that peace to and abrupt, firey end.

I don't like what community goals, power play, conflict zones, wings, pvp and some other stuff bring to the game .. and I partake in none of them .. ever!
My point is simply if you don't like a part of the game either stop doing it or at least reduce the amount of whatever it is you don't like to make it more acceptable for you.

I get the point of reducing the loading screen time, but in my view the Hyperspace build up, before the countdown, doesn't count as part of the 'Loading screen' as you are in full control of the ship during that time.

Also I'm on my way to Sag A* and I never watch any thing else whilst playing the game.

The countdown absolutely DOES count as non-game play. It's pure wait time, if you actually want to jump. You cannot unalign.

The fact remains: 70℅ or so if getting from system to system us WSITING, NOT playing. And even Supercruise isn't terribly engaging.

And unlike combat or smuggling, simple travel isn't really an avoidable part of the game.

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Eye Spy? (sorry I couldn't help myself lol)

Personally, I like that these things take time, it is one of the things that make the game feel unique. Your tedium is my enjoyment it seems. Game like ED should not cater for all player types .. it will become generic as with 99% of the games on the market these days.

Loading screens do not take that much time (always room for improvement tho), and probably only count for less that 5% of actual time realistically. You must be exaggerating right, else I would contact support as there may be something wrong on your connection? I am connecting from Australia too and other than the occasional lag out where the load screen make take 30secs between systems, it is normally quick-ish.

Could there be other 'things' going on when travelling? Sure, more content would be cool outside of the mandatory interdiction each system or dropping into a USS, but should remain flexible/optional not to turn back into the chain-interdiction issues we had last year.

I'm an explorer, I've seen a reasonable amount of the galaxy, much more than some, much less than others.
Yeah the time spent in witchspace can get tedious at times, and it would be nice to have a little variety every now and again, but here's the rub.... I also really like the lack of demand that long distance travel requires.
A couple of thousand light years for me is a chance to watch a streamer, chat with friends or catch up with a series I like on Netflix. It's "me" time where I can sit and think undisturbed, unless I want to be and where the only timeframe I need to worry about is my own.
Be careful what you wish for, they say, and in this case most definitely. Exploration and long distance travel is the one place in the game where you can unwind and take your time, and however you spice it up, you need to do it in a way that doesn't decimate a gameplay style that many of us, at times, prefer to be as bland and unspicey as possible.

I'm not saying that you're wrong to want to change it. Like I said, I've had times where the number of jumps to get to someplace interesting has seemed pretty daunting...I could have done with some means of either getting back automatically, or getting somewhere more interesting more quickly. But that's only every now and again, and the rest of the time I just want to drift on between the stars without worrying when the next npc or random encounter is going to bring that peace to and abrupt, firey end.

Playing the game the way we like to, not the way you say we should.

I'm the one who wants to Play the game. Loading screens and countdown timers aren't game play.

 

[Kaybe]

I like the idea of having auto pilot for long exploration trips. The real monotony isn't the time, but the incredible repetition of doing hundreds if not thousands of jumps over and over.

That being said, they'd have to program is eeally well as long distance travelling involves loads of fuel scooping. And how confident do you feel that the AI won't cook your ship in the process?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

But can you truly justify 3 hours of doing NOTHING as gameplay.

3 hours of those 4 hours travel time did not require any input from YOU, it was LITERALLY waiting for all the numbers to count down.
1 hour of gametime BETWEEN the jumps where you can do something and 3 hours looking at a screen charging up an FSD, counting down from 5 and then a loading screen.

So the actual FUN you had exploring, scanning and stuff happened in ONE hour. ONE hour fun gametime and 3 hours WAIT time.

But that was the choice he made. He didn't have to do that, we could spend hours in each system exploring (apart from those systems that only have a single star in it, no landable planets) if the exploration mechanics where better, giving us more reasons to explore the systems and planets.

That is what is missing, not the actual jump itself, that is fine and have no issues with it as said earlier you can jump from one side of the bubble to the other in a very short amount of time.

I want more compelling reasons to scan and land on an ice planet that is over 300ly away instead of ignoring it for instance.

There should be bonuses for scanning everything in a system, lets say +1/2% per item scanned, so if you come accross a system with 60 planets/moons/asteroid fields and you scan everything you get the +60/120% bonus on top, but only if you scan the entire system.

Being able to get readings from planets that may make you want to investigate it a bit more etc.

Then you have more gameplay.

The jumping to a different system is fine. The countdown is also very useful as you can cancel your jump beforehand. I like the idea that my FSD engine needs to charge for the jump, it's all part of the feeling it conveys of actually being in a space ship jumping vast distances in one go.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Loading screens are not gameplay.

And I'd imagine that if FDev could remove them, they would. They have bigger fish to fry right now though.

- - - Updated - - -

Being able to get readings from planets that may make you want to investigate it a bit more etc.

Oooo. I like that. Anomalous signal sources from planetary surfaces that you can only get a detailed scan from close orbit.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

And I'd imagine that if FDev could remove them, they would. They have bigger fish to fry right now though.

They can't remove them. You cannot have everything loaded into memory; the game and your computer simply couldn't handle it. They need to load and unload assets.
Can they get rid of them entirely? No.
Could they make them look less like loading screens? Absolutely.

 

[Ian Skippy]

It's your choice to play in VR, just as its mine to play out of it. You've chosen an interface designed to increase immersion, whilst I enjoy the exact opposite, where I can unfocus and take in a wider range of input. Neither choice is anymore valid than any other, but that also means that any design decision made to alter the travel dynamic should be mindful of that very fact and not show bias between the two.
As I said, there does need to be something there to make it more interesting for those that need something more involved to do, but nothing should be implemented in such a way that those of us who don't need or want to interact with it are forced to do so unwillingly.
When you're talking about changing the mechanisms behind an entire playstyle, you need to be even more careful and considered than normal, so that in an effort to be more inclusive to people who struggle with it as it is, you don't simply alienate all the people that were happy with it in the first place.

I don't think FD should design the game around people's desire to watch Netflix, that's just silly.

 

[HBK]

And I'd imagine that if FDev could remove them, they would. They have bigger fish to fry right now though.

Agreed. Still, traveling long distances is mostly devoid of gameplay. If only there was I dunno some mechanic for the CD but it's just "scoop while waiting for CD then charge".

Well now we have to get around the star a bit more but that's hardly compelling gameplay.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

They can't remove them. You cannot have everything loaded into memory; the game and your computer simply couldn't handle it. They need to load and unload assets.
Can they get rid of them entirely? No.
Could they make them look less like loading screens? Absolutely.

The question is where loading starts.

If it loads upon jump and not at activation of FSD then they could do something.

Its not as if preloading system data and status would be a problem.

If we have 5-15 seconds per jump waitinng for said jump when we cannot do ANYTHING it might as well start loading.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Agreed. Still, traveling long distances is mostly devoid of gameplay. If only there was I dunno some mechanic for the CD but it's just "scoop while waiting for CD then charge".

Well now we have to get around the star a bit more but that's hardly compelling gameplay.

I agree that it's hardly the most exciting gameplay around, but honestly? I like it. I like the quiet bits of Elite just as much as the noisier, more frantic bits.

- - - Updated - - -

The question is where loading starts.

If it loads upon jump and not at activation of FSD then they could do something.

Its not as if preloading system data and status would be a problem.

And you know this...how?

It's generally a mistake to state that something won't be a problem if you're not really, really familiar with the game code.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Or Wormholes you actually have to pilot through and navigate.

Like that moded version of Independance War 2, where you could navigate the bubble space tunnel.
That was really nice. OTOH, even this would become tedious after doing it 1K time.

But, back to the gameplay issues :

1) waiting != playing. What we have is a fancy loading screen. Fancy visuals, awesome sound but still a loading screen.
1b) long distance travel != exploring. Some people do it that way (scan every system), but other don't.
2) long distance travel is tedious, sure you can "explore" (really : point and wait gameplay).
3) I do think that an auto-pilot able to scoop / align / jump / repeat would improve the overall thing. I mean, one could use that time
to search for interesting exploration targets on the galmap, like BH, neutron stars, O class systems, Planetary nebulas and so on, instead of
repeating the scoop / align / jump / repeat 100x routine.

Fundamentaly the problem lies in the very low level of involvement / skill required for navigation and exploration.
Literaly, these two gameplay loops are respectively scoop / align / press button / wait / repeat for navigation and align / wait or honk for exploration.

Where are the complications, dangers and anomalies in deep space ?

 

[Snarfbuckle]

But that was the choice he made. He didn't have to do that, we could spend hours in each system exploring (apart from those systems that only have a single star in it, no landable planets) if the exploration mechanics where better, giving us more reasons to explore the systems and planets.

That is what is missing, not the actual jump itself, that is fine and have no issues with it as said earlier you can jump from one side of the bubble to the other in a very short amount of time.

I want more compelling reasons to scan and land on an ice planet that is over 300ly away instead of ignoring it for instance.

There should be bonuses for scanning everything in a system, lets say +1/2% per item scanned, so if you come accross a system with 60 planets/moons/asteroid fields and you scan everything you get the +60/120% bonus on top, but only if you scan the entire system.

Being able to get readings from planets that may make you want to investigate it a bit more etc.

Then you have more gameplay.

The jumping to a different system is fine. The countdown is also very useful as you can cancel your jump beforehand. I like the idea that my FSD engine needs to charge for the jump, it's all part of the feeling it conveys of actually being in a space ship jumping vast distances in one go.

Try saying hyperjumps are fine on a 300 ly journey on economy drive...

The ONLY mode people use are max jump range and with that and 25ly jump range Colonia takes 8 hours and 840 jumps give or take.

In economy mode it would take 5 times as long aproximately and out of 40 hours jump time 30-35 of those would be literally staring at a screen doing nothing.

If the wait time was reduced i think people would have less problem with short jump range since it is more the not-playing time that is a negative time sink that give no actual gameplay.

It would be like trying to justify staring at the circling ship on the loading screen and call it active gameplay and having fun.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

The question is where loading starts.

If it loads upon jump and not at activation of FSD then they could do something.

Its not as if preloading system data and status would be a problem.

If we have 5-15 seconds per jump waitinng for said jump when we cannot do ANYTHING it might as well start loading.

Loading starts a second or so during the jump ( those hiccups? That's data being loaded and unloaded into memory ).

Whether or not pre-loading the data is a problem depends entirely on how much memory having two sets of system data and assets takes, and whether or not the engine and the users computer can handle it.

All you'd doing then is moving the starting point, the actual loading still needs to occur and will still cause the game to lag, hyperspace and the way it's designed is a very nice way to load in new system data whilst being able to hide the load screen through sexy hyperspace effects. By starting it early, your countdown would have to be longer and there would be a painful and noticeable impact on the timer itself in the form of stutter, and lag.

Personally I don't see the point of the countdown, but I like it all the same.

 

[Sterling MH]

An auto-jumping-pilot would be the ultimate acknowledgment that long range travel is the incarnation of boredom, I don't see them doing that.

And I don't think many pilots use the "economical route" once they've understood what that option does in the route planner.

You only need a fuel scoop to "fast route". And even with crappy scoop, the time saved is tremendous.

But that's got nothing to do with what I said. The point is that fastest route is taken despite it given a much lower range than economical (and moreso for each grade of FSD you go up), and that this is "paid" for by having to do a LOT more jumps. Fuelscooping is more time taken in fastest mode because your tank range is much lower, meaning that you have to scoop more total fuel.

But if, instead of limiting to 2T fuel per jump, giving you 18 ly per jump and 15 jumps (leaving some for supercruise),that's a total range of 900ly and 15 jumps. Ask that the limit of 2T be removed and your 32t of fuel lasts about 4x18ly jumps, 70ly. If you jump 5ly on average in economical, you get 9000ly or thereabouts on a full tank.

THAT is why you won't get autopilot: people will get 9000ly on a full tank without scooping at the cost of reading more FB.

People currently use fastest to cut out jump sequences, swapping having to refuel 10x as often to save 2/3rds of the time looking at the warp tunnel. There would be no reason to take fastest if you had autopilot. You cut out 90% of the fuelscooping for no cost other than that for the animations to roll past. And filling up internal slots with fuel linearly cuts down the fuelscooping, with no more involvement of the "pilot" to make this unrewarding.

THAT is why there won't be autopilot.

If you want to increase jump range, ask that there be no limit on fuel used per jump. If fuelscooping is so fast, then refueling 10x to get 2.5x as far will be a no-brainer. If that still isn't quite enough, then the exponential factor would have to be reduced. But an autopilot isn't necessary to get further per jump. Just use more fuel per jump.

Doing so, however, would require that we get some sort of slider to say hw far per jump we would like to go to, so that we can optimise the jumps per distance travelled.

 

[HBK]

I agree that it's hardly the most exciting gameplay around, but honestly? I like it. I like the quiet bits of Elite just as much as the noisier, more frantic bits.

I'm conflicted about this. It's nice for the first 100 jumps but after some time it just feels like you've seen it a thousand times. There's just not enough variation.

The reason I didn't visit Jacques yet is that I already did visit the center of the galaxy (pre-RNGineers) and while it yielded some impressive moments I just don't want to chain jump for hours again (and no, I don't want to take 5 weeks to reach it either by admiring the vista and scanning stuff).