One thing I was always pointed too concerning the holocaust when growing up was the tattoo skin lamps. Absolutely unbelievable. I also visited Auschwitz and it is unbelievable. The gas chambers are still there. The smell is still in the air on overcast days. Its a pretty undeniable fact. There is a movie coming out on this subject that I refuse to see. I don't understand how this claim can be made, and I don't get why anybody would want to deny that these atrocities took place. The German people don't even deny it, they talk about it in class, and visit these areas and try and teach there children and grandchildren about it so that these things are not repeated by future generations. Something that I find quite responsible and very intelligent on their part. I honestly do not get why anybody would deny it. There are videos of German officers admitting to it at trials that took place afterwards.
General / Off-Topic According to some people, the holocaust didn't happen.
- Thread starter glynie
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There are people that love certain ideologies, and the can't accept that those ideologies are bad. This is standard human behaviour. I don't think we'll ever be rid of it.
I love an ideology, Secular democracy, but even a secular country can do bad things, i'd like to think i'd recognise it and oppose it, but you are right, some won't see the bad stuff, whether that be religious zealots, fascists, and yes, even Atheistic commuists, hence why i'm "secular democratic socialist with liberal views" to cover everything, i like this ideology because it's literally about being fair to everyone. Which is why i think holocaust deniers should be allowed to talk about it (allthough hypocritically i wouldn't protest if it were made a crime here in the UK), instead of locking them up and giving them a following, we can laugh at them after destroying their "ideas" with our facts.
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Minonian
Banned
Aye! You want make Neo nacism acceptable? The first step is to lie down it's crimes, and say, you don't belíve it.
Same goes to Trumph, and his Anti environmentalism idiocy. How you can make pollution acceptable? If you deny it.
he very well aware of the truth, it's just not his interests.
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You know what's the difference? palestina and israel are in war with each others, with a lot of cease fire. Do not mix up these two situation.
I would so love that to be true but people revel in ignorance now. It's not only acceptable but glorified. You can't belittle the village idiot, he's running the village now with a wide supporter base. The spokesperson for the current administration just legitimized "Alternative Facts". Alternative facts...[ugh]
What they love is a license to believe they are always superior to "those people", and a belief system that justifies the bad behavior they want to do anyway. Religious zealots are much the same.
Also having looked back at a few comments, i can't and won't commpare Israel and Palestine to the ghettos in Poland, the differences are obvious, and allthough i oppose the right wing religious Israeli occupation of the West bank, i can't bring myself to criticize Israel over Gaza, the blame there lies only with Hamas (a fascist group that wants to drive the Jews from Israel just as the third reich wanted to drive them from Europe at first). This world needs less Netanyahu and Trump, more Herzog and Sanders/Warren, less Hamas, more king of Jordan, less religion, more secularization. Most Israelis in Israel proper are secular Jews, if that were presented in it's politics we could think of a lasting peace, Rabin was evidence of that, so no, i won't fall in to that Anti Zionist pro Palestine trap when discussing the holocaust. (not to say that the west and Israel never did war crimes, of course we did, all countries have, but i can't remember the last time a civilised western nation other than Germany in the 30s-45, ever tried to eradicate an entire race/religion based on bloodlines). Note: Also i recognise other genocides around the world at different times, the horrors of Rwanda, Armenia, and the Balkans all within a century, but the reason we as Brits and Americans and western/northern Europeans need to pay special attention to the holocaust is that quite frankly....given the circumstances, we could be the next perpetrators, after all no one would ever have thought that the modern, western civilised Germany could have done it, but they did.
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I tend not to think apartheid in Israel proper, but yes in the west bank, it's Arab land and the Arabs from there can't vote in Israeli elections, so it's getting to the stage now where these criminals like trump and Netanyahu (i'm not stretching to war criminals as these guys are financially motivated and corrupt as opposed to bloodthirsty) are endangering the very existence of the State of Israel itself in the long run, there needs to be a two state solution for the sake of the Jews as well as Arabs, it's the Jews who will end up suffering more in the end demographically speaking if they try to illegally expand their state (or continue to move settlers in), and whilst i refuse to compare Netanyahu and his right wing religious supporters to the third reich, it's obvious that they have a very ugly superiority complex regarding their "god given" land, made worse by rich right wing American corporations and Saudi support (via fox news) for both financial and backward religious reasons. (the religious reasons being that at least half Americans seem to agree that Israel has a "promised land". Scary times for Israel and the Jews as well as Muslims, now more than ever the holocaust needs to start resonating with all sides.
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I personally don't see how trump will help further Israels case - Even though he says really nice good things to the AIPAC, The American Israel Public Affairs Committee and the fact that some of his children are converts to jews, his statements on getting back on friendly terms with the Russians and removing ISIS (and therefore those groups who want to remove Assad) leans in the direction of keeping Assad in power, which is an obstacle in Israels case on Palestinians as Assad and Syrians ally, Iran both support the Palestinians dearly.
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Also i feel the need to add that the liberal left in the west (i'm also liberal left) tends to unfairly single Israel out, i must point to the apartheid-like treatment of women and gays in almost every Muslim country, the west should be praising Israel proper as a beacon of democracy and liberty, yes we need to put a stop to west bank settlements, but before boycotting Israel, lets boycott Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan etc etc, far worse as nations than Israel, where you have free speech, in fact it seems that the Israeli media are some of the harshest critics towards their establishment (like in any normal western nation), can the same now be said of Turkey ? Never mind Saudi Arabia.
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If you listen to older germans, who lived during that time - especially if they have some sort of dementia and fall back into their youth - you know that stuff was real.
It's a broken generation. Layers upon layers of trauma. There was a lot of personal denial about it and about the involvement. A lot of revisionism. A lot of firm belief that "germany was wronged" and "rightfully defended itself" (sounds familiar? It's the whole 'self victimization' of the right wing nuts of today) - nope.
That feeling of "aryan superiority" was pretty real and some people cannot accept the huge wrong it did and try to rekindle it.
Nonono.
I think a single democratic state is the only solution left. There will be a lot of bad blood to sort out, but if Israel won't return to the internationally recognised borders, then the Palestinians will need to be acknowledged as full citizens. The madness and tribalism has to stop.
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Israel holds the power in the relationship with the Palestinians. It's the occupying power. Trying to be "even handed" creates an illusion about "both sides being equally to blame".
Isreal also doesn't get a free pass because of stuff going on in Saudi-Arabia, Turkey, etc. That's the Whataboutism fallacy.
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A difference would be that Western governments are not constantly going on about standing "shoulder to shoulder" with other countries in the Middle East . It's the hypocrisy that aggravates people.
I feel that one of the reasons Israel has problems in the modern world is that (from what I have seen) they use the Holocaust as the main reason why they are doing things the way they are (appearing to insist that only they suffered terribly, and only they can protect their way of life and their peoples). I certainly do NOT deny the Holocaust happened, and I accept that the Jewish Peoples are right to want to protect themselves and their way of life. However, ramming the Holocaust down the throats of everybody else on the planet can get a bit wearing. The Soviet Union had between 20 and 26 million people killed during WWII, and (while they honour their memories) they do not use this as a reason to explain why they do what they do. I do not know what the percentages are (of victims to total population), but either way the numbers are terrifying. Other Peoples also suffered at the hands of the Axis forces, and they have moved on with their lives (they honour the memories of those who gave their lives, willingly or otherwise, to protect their beliefs and ways of life).
Please understand that I am not disputing what happened in World War 2. I do not deny any civilised Peoples the right to protect themselves. I just feel that rubbing other Peoples faces in what they went through may alienate the Israeli Nation from the rest of the World.
Please understand that I am not disputing what happened in World War 2. I do not deny any civilised Peoples the right to protect themselves. I just feel that rubbing other Peoples faces in what they went through may alienate the Israeli Nation from the rest of the World.
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I'm not going to debate modern Israeli politics, i could go on forever. But i will say this, Israeli's have every right to make people remember the holocaust, in fact we all should commit to remembering the holocaust, we owe that not just to the Jews, but to humanity.
You realise that the Jews were the punching bag of Europe for an incredibly long time. It's one of the most insane feuds you could think of. Medieval times, Russian pogoroms... it's stupid and brutal.
That is not to say they are unique, and things like the destruction of Native American populations and culture wouldn't be comparable or even worse overall. There's just something rather odd about the tone of your little speech.
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This. It's not a unique event, but it's emblematic. Never Again is a good sentiment, but it needs to be understood widely. Never again should we allow anything like that to happen... but we already have. In Rwanda.
Yaffle
Volunteer Moderator
Witness the treatment of Shylock in The Merchant of Venice (1596) and in in Oliver Twist (1837).
If you look through the Bible the Israeli Peoples were persecuted for far longer than (to the best of my knowledge) any other People in the World. They have the right to be paranoid, and I do not deny them that right (if I were Israeli I might be paranoid). They also have the right to remind others what they went through. I would suggest that, however, they temper this down somewhat. In the United Kingdom we commemorate Holocaust Day. It might be a good idea if Israel were to ask other countries (if they are not already doing so) do something similar. If this were to happen, maybe then Israel could understand that other Peoples remember what happened, and then, just maybe, they could start believing that they have a place in the World.
I believe that, if they carry on the way they are, Israel will alienate themselves from the rest of the World. Unless they manage their view of history better, they will never be able to move on, and make things better for themselves. There have been times when the Israeli politicians (using the Holocaust as a reason for what they do) have caused me to either change channel or turn off the television. If I am doing this, how many others are? By their very attitude they may be causing others to become indifferent to what happened in the Holocaust (or, at least, unwilling to keep listening). If, however, they can persuade the rest of the World to have a Holocaust day (and the World honours it), then maybe Israel can move on.
I consider myself lucky to be alive. If the Axis forces had won WWII, and the United Kingdom had fallen, I probably would not be alive. My paternal Grandmother was a Romany Gypsy, and they were persecuted to the same degree as others that National Socialist Germany considered unclean. I always honour Remembrance Day (both on Rememberance Sunday and on the 11th November). I will always vote, as others fought (and died) to give me the right to exercise free speech.
(I may be blurring the lines between the Jewish and Israeli peoples. If I am, and this is wrong, please accept my apologies. I do not mean to cause offence.)
I believe that, if they carry on the way they are, Israel will alienate themselves from the rest of the World. Unless they manage their view of history better, they will never be able to move on, and make things better for themselves. There have been times when the Israeli politicians (using the Holocaust as a reason for what they do) have caused me to either change channel or turn off the television. If I am doing this, how many others are? By their very attitude they may be causing others to become indifferent to what happened in the Holocaust (or, at least, unwilling to keep listening). If, however, they can persuade the rest of the World to have a Holocaust day (and the World honours it), then maybe Israel can move on.
I consider myself lucky to be alive. If the Axis forces had won WWII, and the United Kingdom had fallen, I probably would not be alive. My paternal Grandmother was a Romany Gypsy, and they were persecuted to the same degree as others that National Socialist Germany considered unclean. I always honour Remembrance Day (both on Rememberance Sunday and on the 11th November). I will always vote, as others fought (and died) to give me the right to exercise free speech.
(I may be blurring the lines between the Jewish and Israeli peoples. If I am, and this is wrong, please accept my apologies. I do not mean to cause offence.)
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