Tell you where you went wrong there mate. The moment you took me seriously.
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2.3 dev update feedback mega thread
- Thread starter Jenner
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Tell you where you went wrong there mate. The moment you took me seriously.
Not going to search for something on my phone but you also provided 0 evidence
Sterling MH
Banned
And you decided that it must be singleplayer because it didn't say multiple player crew...
Binning you too.
I think you will find Fdev designed the rules to the game we play, blame them for the inconsistencies.
And I think you would have to agree, in the real world, if I was on the international space station with a friend and it blew up, we would both die pretty consistently.
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Probably yes. But, why not ?
Seriously, it is really irellevant what ship is any player flying and if he bought this particular ship after one week or two years. After all, it will be his own insurance screen.
Hasn't caught on to me, I actually find it obnoxious because I care about consistent and believable language. [squeeeee]
Sterling MH
Banned
Fair enough. Binned.
A couple of thoughts (some brought on by discussions within our group)
- VR and gunner role: since you're not the one flying, and likely not looking forward, there are some concerns around possible motion sickness in VR
- extra pips could results in engineered ships running largely stationary on 4/0/4 pips. Is that really the intention?
- non-combat crew roles would be nice, but even for a gunner.... Is there really enough to do? It might be a CZ only thing, where it's a bit busy. In BH, it could well be waiting for prey, interrupted by very quick kills, and further waiting.
While I am not massively thrilled by this (I really enjoy flying my combat ship(s) in CZs, and have a bit of a tough time visualizing how multi-crew would work and be as much as/more fun), I do see interesting potential for flying together (even without actually engaging in combat) for mentoring and coaching newer players, as well as get them going building an initial bank balance.
- VR and gunner role: since you're not the one flying, and likely not looking forward, there are some concerns around possible motion sickness in VR
- extra pips could results in engineered ships running largely stationary on 4/0/4 pips. Is that really the intention?
- non-combat crew roles would be nice, but even for a gunner.... Is there really enough to do? It might be a CZ only thing, where it's a bit busy. In BH, it could well be waiting for prey, interrupted by very quick kills, and further waiting.
While I am not massively thrilled by this (I really enjoy flying my combat ship(s) in CZs, and have a bit of a tough time visualizing how multi-crew would work and be as much as/more fun), I do see interesting potential for flying together (even without actually engaging in combat) for mentoring and coaching newer players, as well as get them going building an initial bank balance.
Sterling MH
Banned
Problem is trolls were not accepting that and, not knowing they were trolling, we engaged them, assuming they were real.
My thoughts on the news in the Dev Update to add to the pile:
Firstly, I'm perplexed as to why the art work used to officially unveil 2.3 shows a multi crew station that doesn't seem to exist - namely one that deals with the ship's shields. Was this planned but ultimately dropped in favour of the Fighter Control station? Is it an, as yet, unannounced feature that is actually coming in 2.3? Is it planned for the future because it couldn't be completed on time?
Onto the stations...
Helm
The pilot. The news that the pilot can't swap out to the other stations is rather disappointing, as I'm sure we'd all love to be able to try one of the other stations on our own ships. For example, I won't now know what it's like to be a gunner on my Python, because none of my other friends fly with a Python. This is where NPC Crew gets its usefulness and why so many people want it - the NPC to fly your ship like they already do when you're controlling the fighter, and you take on the gunner station. I appreciate that it would be silly to add the massive buff to combat that multi crew gives with NPCs, because it will be far and away the new meta - everyone will fly with an NPC crew because of the massive combat boost... But you could make it so that you swapping roles with an NPC increases the ship's firepower (by virtue of a human controlling a turret, which is an unavoidable buff anyway), but you fly erratically because the NPC is controlling it, based on the NPC pilot's skill level. As someone mentioned in one of the locked threads - the mechanics are already there when we essentially take over the Fighter Control station to fly our SLFs and let the NPC pilot our ships, except this time we'd be inside it. At least the solo player will get the chance to experience the other seats on their ship. However, believe me, I understand why FD might be hesitant to put another human CMDR in charge of my ship - destroying it maliciously by crashing into things and doing other things would be too easy. But at the same time, it is an excellent chance for people to run big ship flying schools and give newer players a taste of the big ships. I'm also a little disappointed that power distribution isn't going to a different station, though I am glad the gunner will get a pip.
Gunner
First off, I get that it makes sense for this to be turrets only, it just does, but turrets aren't effective on all ships, and it basically means you have to either make a dedicated turret build multi-crew ship, or keep swapping your loadout all the time to accommodate... Unless you have a big ship of course, (Anaconda, Type-9, Cutter, Corvette, Beluga) they benefit greatly from turrets and will do so even more with humans controlling them. Personally I'd have liked to have seen (no matter how little sense it makes) all weapons become multi-crew turrets and we have something akin to the SRV - a turret with a fixed or gimballed reticle. That way, you get a firing arc buff, but the gunner still has to be dead accurate with the fixed weapon, or has a bit of tracking with the gimballed ones. Turret Turrets themselves in this case would act like gimbals.
Quick slots and customisation with modules sounds intriguing, I'm curious to see what this looks like.
I have to say I am excited about the gunner having extra power distribution and I think that's a great idea, and also that the gunner can control advanced sensors and scanners. It should go a long way to making a multi-crewed ship a formidable beast indeed, and it's clear the intent is to give the player a choice between forming a Wing and going Multi-Crew.
BUT I really want to see this done in tandem with improved scanners for exploration, so as to make the gunner station useful for explorers and small ships. Maybe to come with that promised and long awaiting reworking of the discovery scanners that Sandro made that huge thread about a while back. The ability for the gunner to do some detailed scanning of planetary surfaces, helping to find things like geological activity, fungal life, alien and mystery related POIs, would be fantastic - not just the already noted benefit of having extra pairs of eyes in the ship (or in the fighter) for brute-force searching (which is not acceptable as the sole method of making us look for things). I'm waiting in anticipation to see what else comes of 2.3 in this regard.
Would also be great if this station could control limpets - would benefit piracy and mining, and generally picking up stuff.
Fighter Control
This is fantastic! The ability to have more than one fighter out at once is sorely what the SLFs needed. Even better, as Ed put in the Dev Update, if your ship has enough fighters, you plus your two crew-mates can go out in the fight at the same time - a total of 3 human controlled fighters - presumably with your hired NPC help flying your ship as they currently do. I have no suggestions or complaints about this whatsoever.
The only thing is that I hope this didn't supersede the aforementioned shields/defences/systems station, because we could have done with having that station in addition to this.
Crew members switching dynamically is exactly how it should be... except for the part about the helm not being included in this. I think that option should be open to those CMDRs that crew-up from the host CMDR's friend list, I wonder if that would be do-able?
So after that little analysis and somewhat of a wishlist, it's time to move on to the extra benefits that Ed has there:
Ship Rebuy Premiums Reduced
This sits just fine with me, I don't see anything wrong with that really, it is, after all, about removing barriers to this type of gameplay, and it would be a little unfair to lob a 36 million credit rebuy at someone who has only just started the game and is still in a Sidewinder while they're playing with friends in their Cutter.
Duplicating Bounties and Combat Bonds
Not too sure about this one specifically, especially since with Wings, you get a claim share rather than a duplication. For consistency's sake, I'd rather see it match with Wings. No one would miss money-making opportunities because this is exactly how it works with Wings.
Shared Punishments
Applying crimes to every member of the crew makes sense because they were accomplices to the crime. Crew members avoiding taking crimes with them by relinquishing credits earned... that is a no no, and something I'd not want to see get past Beta. As others have mentioned, this opens the mechanic up to abuse, especially if you're opening the whole thing up to a "looking for crew" kind of deal where any random CMDRs can join you.
As to multi-boxing, I can't really talk because I have no experience with that kind of thing and I'm an Xbox CMDR. Although I do find it ridiculous that someone who doesn't already have multiple accounts would go out of their way to buy extra accounts just to make this work; it's probably something that will only occur to those who already have multiple accounts. However, Xbox and PS4 will be immune to this kind of thing.
Also, I have no problem with Muti-Crew being an instant drop-in/drop-out system. That's exactly how I imagined it would be at the moment in lieu of spacelegs. However, the telepresence aspect is something that I'm really having to stretch the imagination with, considering it's not consistent - telepresence in fighters with cockpits, but not in SRVs, but yes in full-sized ships across the galaxy? Eh... better to not handwave it and just leave it as just one of those things that happens in games.
Okay, so I think that about does it for Multi-Crew, onto Commander Creator:
Commander Creator
Definitely looking forward to this one, I hope this comes with ship naming as well. Nothing further on this, everything I've seen on it from a while back looks promising. Waiting to see what happens in the Beta with it.
Fully Fledged Camera System
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES! I can only hope this means FD are finally reworking the awful debug/classified cam to a more traditional style and include being able to have an inside view as well. I cannot wait to start taking more advanced screenies of the inside and outside of my ship. Hell, I'd do it even if I didn't have any crew to look at.
-----
There we go, my thoughts on the Dev Update, collected here for the Devs to read, because all the other things I've posted on this have probably gotten lost in all the locked threads. I hope that some of this feedback is useful.
Firstly, I'm perplexed as to why the art work used to officially unveil 2.3 shows a multi crew station that doesn't seem to exist - namely one that deals with the ship's shields. Was this planned but ultimately dropped in favour of the Fighter Control station? Is it an, as yet, unannounced feature that is actually coming in 2.3? Is it planned for the future because it couldn't be completed on time?
Onto the stations...
Helm
The pilot. The news that the pilot can't swap out to the other stations is rather disappointing, as I'm sure we'd all love to be able to try one of the other stations on our own ships. For example, I won't now know what it's like to be a gunner on my Python, because none of my other friends fly with a Python. This is where NPC Crew gets its usefulness and why so many people want it - the NPC to fly your ship like they already do when you're controlling the fighter, and you take on the gunner station. I appreciate that it would be silly to add the massive buff to combat that multi crew gives with NPCs, because it will be far and away the new meta - everyone will fly with an NPC crew because of the massive combat boost... But you could make it so that you swapping roles with an NPC increases the ship's firepower (by virtue of a human controlling a turret, which is an unavoidable buff anyway), but you fly erratically because the NPC is controlling it, based on the NPC pilot's skill level. As someone mentioned in one of the locked threads - the mechanics are already there when we essentially take over the Fighter Control station to fly our SLFs and let the NPC pilot our ships, except this time we'd be inside it. At least the solo player will get the chance to experience the other seats on their ship. However, believe me, I understand why FD might be hesitant to put another human CMDR in charge of my ship - destroying it maliciously by crashing into things and doing other things would be too easy. But at the same time, it is an excellent chance for people to run big ship flying schools and give newer players a taste of the big ships. I'm also a little disappointed that power distribution isn't going to a different station, though I am glad the gunner will get a pip.
Gunner
First off, I get that it makes sense for this to be turrets only, it just does, but turrets aren't effective on all ships, and it basically means you have to either make a dedicated turret build multi-crew ship, or keep swapping your loadout all the time to accommodate... Unless you have a big ship of course, (Anaconda, Type-9, Cutter, Corvette, Beluga) they benefit greatly from turrets and will do so even more with humans controlling them. Personally I'd have liked to have seen (no matter how little sense it makes) all weapons become multi-crew turrets and we have something akin to the SRV - a turret with a fixed or gimballed reticle. That way, you get a firing arc buff, but the gunner still has to be dead accurate with the fixed weapon, or has a bit of tracking with the gimballed ones. Turret Turrets themselves in this case would act like gimbals.
Quick slots and customisation with modules sounds intriguing, I'm curious to see what this looks like.
I have to say I am excited about the gunner having extra power distribution and I think that's a great idea, and also that the gunner can control advanced sensors and scanners. It should go a long way to making a multi-crewed ship a formidable beast indeed, and it's clear the intent is to give the player a choice between forming a Wing and going Multi-Crew.
BUT I really want to see this done in tandem with improved scanners for exploration, so as to make the gunner station useful for explorers and small ships. Maybe to come with that promised and long awaiting reworking of the discovery scanners that Sandro made that huge thread about a while back. The ability for the gunner to do some detailed scanning of planetary surfaces, helping to find things like geological activity, fungal life, alien and mystery related POIs, would be fantastic - not just the already noted benefit of having extra pairs of eyes in the ship (or in the fighter) for brute-force searching (which is not acceptable as the sole method of making us look for things). I'm waiting in anticipation to see what else comes of 2.3 in this regard.
Would also be great if this station could control limpets - would benefit piracy and mining, and generally picking up stuff.
Fighter Control
This is fantastic! The ability to have more than one fighter out at once is sorely what the SLFs needed. Even better, as Ed put in the Dev Update, if your ship has enough fighters, you plus your two crew-mates can go out in the fight at the same time - a total of 3 human controlled fighters - presumably with your hired NPC help flying your ship as they currently do. I have no suggestions or complaints about this whatsoever.
The only thing is that I hope this didn't supersede the aforementioned shields/defences/systems station, because we could have done with having that station in addition to this.
Crew members switching dynamically is exactly how it should be... except for the part about the helm not being included in this. I think that option should be open to those CMDRs that crew-up from the host CMDR's friend list, I wonder if that would be do-able?
So after that little analysis and somewhat of a wishlist, it's time to move on to the extra benefits that Ed has there:
Ship Rebuy Premiums Reduced
This sits just fine with me, I don't see anything wrong with that really, it is, after all, about removing barriers to this type of gameplay, and it would be a little unfair to lob a 36 million credit rebuy at someone who has only just started the game and is still in a Sidewinder while they're playing with friends in their Cutter.
Duplicating Bounties and Combat Bonds
Not too sure about this one specifically, especially since with Wings, you get a claim share rather than a duplication. For consistency's sake, I'd rather see it match with Wings. No one would miss money-making opportunities because this is exactly how it works with Wings.
Shared Punishments
Applying crimes to every member of the crew makes sense because they were accomplices to the crime. Crew members avoiding taking crimes with them by relinquishing credits earned... that is a no no, and something I'd not want to see get past Beta. As others have mentioned, this opens the mechanic up to abuse, especially if you're opening the whole thing up to a "looking for crew" kind of deal where any random CMDRs can join you.
As to multi-boxing, I can't really talk because I have no experience with that kind of thing and I'm an Xbox CMDR. Although I do find it ridiculous that someone who doesn't already have multiple accounts would go out of their way to buy extra accounts just to make this work; it's probably something that will only occur to those who already have multiple accounts. However, Xbox and PS4 will be immune to this kind of thing.
Also, I have no problem with Muti-Crew being an instant drop-in/drop-out system. That's exactly how I imagined it would be at the moment in lieu of spacelegs. However, the telepresence aspect is something that I'm really having to stretch the imagination with, considering it's not consistent - telepresence in fighters with cockpits, but not in SRVs, but yes in full-sized ships across the galaxy? Eh... better to not handwave it and just leave it as just one of those things that happens in games.
Okay, so I think that about does it for Multi-Crew, onto Commander Creator:
Commander Creator
Definitely looking forward to this one, I hope this comes with ship naming as well. Nothing further on this, everything I've seen on it from a while back looks promising. Waiting to see what happens in the Beta with it.
Fully Fledged Camera System
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES! I can only hope this means FD are finally reworking the awful debug/classified cam to a more traditional style and include being able to have an inside view as well. I cannot wait to start taking more advanced screenies of the inside and outside of my ship. Hell, I'd do it even if I didn't have any crew to look at.
-----
There we go, my thoughts on the Dev Update, collected here for the Devs to read, because all the other things I've posted on this have probably gotten lost in all the locked threads. I hope that some of this feedback is useful.
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I am not a troll, these are my actual concerns for a game I love and have played since beta. But I would like some explanations, you don't have to try and provide one.
Not to mention that very few playing this game were going to be willing to drop what they were doing in-game, and jump who knows how many hundreds/thousands of light years out of their way just to rendezvous with a friend or two for a session of Multi-Crew!
No doubt in my mind that if FD had indeed catered to the clueless "Immersion Trumps Every Thing, Every Time" crowd, this new 2.3 Multi-Crew thing would have been dead on arrival.
The only players who would be playing would be that tiny vocal minority screaming about the instant transfer right now. You need more than a 0.0001% adoption rate for a new feature to be successful.
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Sterling MH
Banned
Surely simpler to treat the others as hired employees and not require they rebuy or are guilty of a crime. Just don't increase the payments, and sort out a share beforehand. Either straight-up % split (e.g. 50% for the pilot and the rest shared among the crew, or 2-3 shares for the pilot and one share for each crewmember).
And, yes, that would lead to someone getting off the Sidewinder quickly, but then again, they're either restarting and this is just a time sink to wait, or they're new and having some spare cash quickly allows them to play safer in Open where they may be forced into rebuy for being a new player or by being an unwitting target. And since the cash comes out of the pilot#s share rather than created by the person's mere existence, who are we to deny them the cash if the pilot thinks it a fair trade?
Really, just dumping the increased payout will solve just about every exploit possible that isn't going to be self-limiting (like using a second account as a PC body to pretend, which means no shooting from the "PC"). And any gripe is one about the freer giving of in-game currency by someone else to another third person.
I'm wondering if the Log Out - Log In process to become a member of someone's crew is FDev's way of avoiding another scenario for combat logging. For example: A pilot is in battle and realizes they're about to lose. He asks a friend/wingmate to invite him to be a part of their crew. Instantly he's no longer in his ship but now a crew member with his friend. I give kudos to FDev if they thought through this one despite the backlash they also probably expect to receive regarding the decision to use a Log Out - Log In approach to creating a multicrew.
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Yes.
This is where I feel there may be some legitimate concerns.
Not only twinking and 24 hour billionaires which people may have differing opinions on but also ebay credit selling and similar.
It is hard to know what Frontier's policy is on this sort of thing nowadays.
To clarify - I am referring to NPC figher pilots that we have now. Not player pilots, they would return to their ship.
While we haven't had a chance to test it yet... I VERY MUCH DOUBT the opt-in process for a Multi-Crew session is going to be anywhere close to as fast as your scenario suggests it would be.
Pretty sure you and your ship would be space dust LONG BEFORE you were even half way through the MC joining process, leave alone the likely fact that you won't be able to begin the process if you are currently "In Danger".
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Not to mention that very few playing this game were going to be willing to drop what they were doing in-game, and jump who knows how many hundreds/thousands of light years out of their way just to rendezvous with a friend or two for a session of Multi-Crew!
No doubt in my mind that if FD had indeed catered to the clueless "Immersion Trumps Every Thing, Every Time" crowd, this new 2.3 Multi-Crew thing would have been dead on arrival.
The only players who would be playing would be that tiny vocal minority screaming about the instant transfer right now. You need more than a 0.0001% adoption rate for a new feature to be successful.
I think instant transfer is fine if we are taking control of an npc multicrew member on the owners ship. The one assuming control loses the % of the payouts that crew members currently receive. Additionally if you meet up in and join someone's crew while in the same station you get the full pay out.
To avoid being stranded allow players who physically joined a ship to jettison in an escape pod, where, if they play hardcore or iron man, can wait until a player or npc rescues them. Also offer the option to skip past retrieval (no cost) and return to the original station. This will open the door to new gameplay where someone can don the Rescue One skin and rescue Both human and npc cmdrs (npc would be mission only)
I feel this would be the best way to achieve a win win win situation, and avoid all the 60klyr telepresence nonsense
My initial thought when we were speculating multi-crew way back when was that any huge or large hardpoint could be swapped out with a manned turret, where you're actually in the turret (a la Star Citizen, Star Wars, real life, etc), and you would have to manually aim and they would be way powerful. Sitting in an actual turret sounds way more immersive than controlling a reticle from some detached 3rd person view.
Woah, actual feedback amongst a thread full of debating and complaining, rep to you commander!
A lot of your ideas are very similar to my feedback post on the first page.
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