General / Off-Topic Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill by 498 votes to 114

[JeffRyan]

Hypothetical:

Aircraft pilots. There are three of them up front of Easyjet Flight ENG2316. And they decide that the best thing for the aeroplane is for it to have its engines on.

Now let's say that some people in the back decide that the engines are way too noisy, and they don't need engines anymore. They're sick of engines, they don't want engines. Just over half of the passengers demand the engines be switched off.

Question; would you respect the pilots decision to, against their own personal feelings regarding the necessity of engines, and against the wishes of the almost half who didn't want the engines off, switch off the engines and plummet into the shark infested waters below?

The entire point of a representative democracy is that suitably qualified and rational people act as a bullwark against populism of this sort. Hence the reason we don't have such barbaric practices as execution, public flogging etc. Parliament has not only failed in its duty, it has failed to justify its existence. The vote to return sovereignty to Parliament has, quite ironically, slashed the throat of parliamentary sovereignty.

The rammifications of this vote could be dire. Is the country governed by debating in the house of commons? Are members of parliament going to vote according to their conscience and the good arguments of people in the house of commons? Or, instead, are we going to be ruled based on what the Daily Mail might say about things the next day? Are members going to vote to simply avoid a bad headline?

Oh I didn't say I agreed with it and agree with you, but I do sort of respect them for going along with the vote they didn't want.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It really doesn't matter. Scotland had its chance. It had its "Once in a generation opportunity", as the SNP said this was in 2014.

We'll see.

It doesn't matter if the SNP say circumstances have changed with the Brexit vote. They might have some semblance of a point there. Unfortunately for the nationalists, there simply is no appetite amongst Scottish voters for another IndyRef, and the case for another one is extremely weak at best.

The circumstances for Scotland have changed - as the Supreme Court pointed out, the Sewell Convention is just that, a convention, and Westminster can effectively do what it likes.

I am not a nationalist. I'm both a Scottish patriot and a British patriot - the two are not incompatible. So I get disheartened when I see people write language like "taken out of the EU by England and Wales" - it's a very good way to create conflict.

Look at the regional voting figures - there's a stark difference between Scotland and rUK.

I think there can be a lot of danger in Nationalism, and I think Scottish Nationalism is very, very dangerous. I also think that there is a cognitive dissonance in people who think there isn't something very odd with wanting independence for Scotland but then surrendering that independence to the EU. It just doesn't make sense.

Similar reservations can be expressed about the Nationalism of (some of) those who voted to take the UK out of the EU.

 

[Frank]

It really doesn't matter. Scotland had its chance. It had its "Once in a generation opportunity", as the SNP said this was in 2014.

It doesn't matter if the SNP say circumstances have changed with the Brexit vote. They might have some semblance of a point there. Unfortunately for the nationalists, there simply is no appetite amongst Scottish voters for another IndyRef, and the case for another one is extremely weak at best.

I am not a nationalist. I'm both a Scottish patriot and a British patriot - the two are not incompatible. So I get disheartened when I see people write language like "taken out of the EU by England and Wales" - it's a very good way to create conflict.

I think there can be a lot of danger in Nationalism, and I think Scottish Nationalism is very, very dangerous. I also think that there is a cognitive dissonance in people who think there isn't something very odd with wanting independence for Scotland but then surrendering that independence to the EU. It just doesn't make sense.

I see your point about "taken out of the EU by England and Wales".. Half of Wales did not want to leave the EU. We could say that it was just England that wanted to drag us away from the Single Market, and from the European Court of Human Rights.

Which bit?

I'd be interested to hear your answer to Yaffle's question. Exactly what part of leaving the European Union are you looking forward to?

 

[Lianachan]

<snip>

I have Genar-Hofoen on ignore, but when people reply I can see his posts. Looks like standard issue British nationalist boilerplate, to me. Dripping with contempt for Scotland and exhibiting tremendous ignorance about the nature of and case for Scottish independence.

 

[Frank]

I'm going to keep my mouse away from the "ignore" button for a while as I am intrigued to hear if there is a viable case against leaving the EU. It might make me feel slightly happier when the full effects of this decision start to bite.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I have Genar-Hofoen on ignore, but when people reply I can see his posts. Looks like standard issue British nationalist boilerplate, to me. Dripping with contempt for Scotland and exhibiting tremendous ignorance about the nature of and case for Scottish independence.

Translation : "I am intolerant. I didn't actually read what Genar said because his views are unacceptable to me and impinge on my worldview. Genar is evil and ignorant."

How can I be 'dripping with contempt for Scotland' when I literally said I was a Scottish patriot?

How is asking the question of Scotland surrendering its independence to the EU exhibiting 'tremendous ignorance'? I'm asking a question.

See thing is, this is why it's no use participating on this subject here - generally on subjects such as this it tends to turn into an echo chamber of those who are vehemently in support of the EU and all that entails, who resort to insult and shouting down those who do not share their enthusiasm for the EU.

I'm out. Enjoy your echo chamber.

p.s. In answer to Yaffle's question - all of it.

Byeeeeee!

 

[verminstar]

A sliver of faith now restored in democracy in the UK...some assurances made that makes a united ireland less of a fear than it was last week, although we still have an election looming but fer different reasons. The british and irish governments working together and while not saying how things will work, they have said there will be no reunification of the two countries anytime soon, but that there will not be a hard border either.

How they pull it off, I have no idea and wouldnt want to speculate...Ill wait this one out while they work it out between themselves. Its a bit more breathing space that wasnt there previously when the risk of a united ireland was more tangible...now its been delayed which, at the very least, is better than what we had.

Article 50 just around the corner...bout time, this is what we voted for and the delay up until now, while completely understandable given the logistical nightmare, has been a long time coming. Not gonna celebrate until its activated though...the elites will almost certainly have one last gasp attempt at stopping it, now their gravy train is under real threat and not simply a percieved threat.

A good day fer britain and finally some positive news that our politicians are doing what they swore to do in the first place. One also hopes to see the witch hunt that followed will cease, on both sides of the argument, although some will never stop...thats ok, we can deal with them later ^

 

[Adept]

p.s. In answer to Yaffle's question - all of it.

Byeeeeee!

So once again, no answer what so ever.

 

[hairychris]

Hypothetical:

Aircraft pilots. There are three of them up front of Easyjet Flight ENG2316. And they decide that the best thing for the aeroplane is for it to have its engines on.

Now let's say that some people in the back decide that the engines are way too noisy, and they don't need engines anymore. They're sick of engines, they don't want engines. Just over half of the passengers demand the engines be switched off.

Question; would you respect the pilots decision to, against their own personal feelings regarding the necessity of engines, and against the wishes of the almost half who didn't want the engines off, switch off the engines and plummet into the shark infested waters below?

The entire point of a representative democracy is that suitably qualified and rational people act as a bullwark against populism of this sort. Hence the reason we don't have such barbaric practices as execution, public flogging etc. Parliament has not only failed in its duty, it has failed to justify its existence. The vote to return sovereignty to Parliament has, quite ironically, slashed the throat of parliamentary sovereignty.

The rammifications of this vote could be dire. Is the country governed by debating in the house of commons? Are members of parliament going to vote according to their conscience and the good arguments of people in the house of commons? Or, instead, are we going to be ruled based on what the Daily Mail might say about things the next day? Are members going to vote to simply avoid a bad headline?

Agreed.

My MP, Labour, voted against the bill. Good for her.

 

[FuzzySpider]

p.s. In answer to Yaffle's question - all of it.

Really?

You're really looking forward to be rid of a human rights court, employment protection legislation, scientific and security cooperation, and the prosperty that is brought by the single market?

That's ok. I know lots of people who like self-harm too.

 

[Rob At Work]

Really?

You're really looking forward to be rid of a human rights court, employment protection legislation, scientific and security cooperation, and the prosperty that is brought by the single market?

That's ok. I know lots of people who like self-harm too.

LOL

Of course we are going to replace sensible policies with ones that are well, sensible. It will evolve over time that's all.
It's good to see that "Project Fear" is alive and well though - good day to you.

 

[Robert Maynard]

LOL

Of course we are going to replace sensible policies with ones that are well, sensible. It will evolve over time that's all.
It's good to see that "Project Fear" is alive and well though - good day to you.

.... sensible ones from whose perspective? The referendum didn't determine *how* the exit would be negotiated, after all.

The Tories have taken the blank sheet, in relation to requirements of Brexit, and are running with it - with as little Parliamentary oversight as they can get away with.

So I expect the negotiated settlement will favour business that favours the Tories....

 

[dannysquid]

The Tories have taken the blank sheet, in relation to requirements of Brexit, and are running with it.
So I expect the negotiated settlement will favour business that favours the Tories....

Yes, it will be the UK re-designed by the right wing of the Tory Party. That isn't a UK I want to live in. Only now I don't have much choice.

 

[Lianachan]

Yes, it will be the UK re-designed by the right wing of the Tory Party. That isn't a UK I want to live in. Only now I don't have much choice.

Move up here, there's plenty of room in our lifeboat. I just hope we have the courage to launch the thing, instead of just sinking with the Britannia.

 

[FuzzySpider]

LOL

Of course we are going to replace sensible policies with ones that are well, sensible. It will evolve over time that's all.
It's good to see that "Project Fear" is alive and well though - good day to you.

I suppose you're right.

I mean it isn't as if Theresa May has threatened to cut public spending to ribbons and turn the UK into a tax haven, is it?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Move up here, there's plenty of room in our lifeboat. I just hope we have the courage to launch the thing, instead of just sinking with the Britannia.

Yup - one third of the land area of the UK and only c.8% of the population - there's plenty of room (as long as one can tolerate rain and midges).

 

[Lianachan]

Yup - one third of the land area of the UK and only c.8% of the population - there's plenty of room (as long as one can tolerate rain and midges).

At least you only get one of those two at a time!

 

[Robert Maynard]

At least you only get one of those two at a time!

Depends how dense the canopy is overhead - and midges love damp woodland....

 

[Lianachan]

Depends how dense the canopy is overhead - and midges love damp woodland....

A dig I'm involved in in the Highlands each summer has three environmental conditions: torrential rain, blazing heat, midges like piranha. Pick any random two of those three for the conditions at any particular time.

 

[Robert Maynard]

A dig I'm involved in in the Highlands each summer has three environmental conditions: torrential rain, blazing heat, midges like piranha. Pick any random two of those three for the conditions at any particular time.

If you can see the hills in the distance, it's about to rain. If you can't, it's raining....