General / Off-Topic Blatant and Obvious !!!

verminstar

Banned
I read this and I say to myself, "yup, absolutely right"

Then I look around and I am seeing a level of activism and engagement among Democrats and other liberals that I have never ever seen before...and I was in Chicago when Obama was elected in 2008. This is different, this is motivated by real consequences and is not motivated by dreams and hope.

I know of two scientists, that I personally respect, are running for office. I'm seeing dozens of young democrats who have complained about being sidelined in the process, finally stepping up and running for office and participating in organizing. As much as I loathe Trump and fear for the damage he is causing, the caricature of him being a bigsmall bad evil boogeyman has created a common target for BernieBros, Clintonistas and everyone else to come together and oppose.

But we don't have much time...we need to put new candidates in place for 2018 RIGHT NOW.

Which echoes what I said earlier...the recent upheavals, as bad and as damaging that they undoubtedly will be, has been enough to wake up a helluva lotta people who were content to ignore the issues up until now. This has been a worldwide wake up call that the current situation in the world is simply not working.

As a species, our greatest mistakes now would be to ignore why this happened in the first place. One hopes our children will be around to learn from our mistakes, because this will get worse before it gets better.
 
Just as there were undoubtedly some elite establishment types who value money and profits over all else at any cost, without a care who gets trampled or how many local workers are retired to the scrapheap in favour of cheap foreign labour, who voted remain.

But not in the main, of course...wouldnt wanna offend anyone now would we?

There were plenty of extremely unsavoury and very wealthy businessmen and women who not only supported remain but funded remain campaigns because they know that leaving the EU means a severe dent in their profits. Plenty of people voting and pushing for remain not caring one bit about ordinary people, just caring about their money.

But not one single remain voter cast their vote for "cheap foreign labour" because that concept is the flying spaghetti monster of UK politics. It simply doesn't exist, not from EU migration anyway.
 
Fascism is an actual term with a definition. Trump seems very much a fascist. I dont get why it cannot be pointed out, if anything it seems important to do so.

I'm pretty sure several of the Trump and Brexit fans have referred to fascism, usually in relation to the EU somehow. They don't seem so keen to address the genuinely Fascist approach Trump has to the presidency.
 
Perhaps it is so difficult to point out because not everyone agrees.

Indeed.

But you get that with everything. Some people, for example, don't agree that 9/11 was an act of terrorism orchestrated by Islamic terrorists. Some believe it was some massive conspiracy committed by the Bush administration. When people disagree with objectively provable facts then what can you actually do? You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

But here it is. Trump, and fascism. The 14 characteristics of fascism that are generally agreed on are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Trump is, quote objectively, well on the way to fascism if he isn't there already. Anyone who can't see that either isn't looking, is fine with fascism but are trying to pretend that they aren't, or simply so naive they're swallowing the crap spewed out by the alt-right media.
 
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Javert

Volunteer Moderator
^^ I kind of agree that Trump himself wants to be a fascist, even though I'm sure he wouldn't admit it.

Whether he will get away with it remains to be seen.
 
Indeed.

But you get that with everything. Some people, for example, don't agree that 9/11 was an act of terrorism orchestrated by Islamic terrorists. Some believe it was some massive conspiracy committed by the Bush administration. When people disagree with objectively provable facts then what can you actually do? You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

But here it is. Trump, and fascism. The 14 characteristics of fascism that are generally agreed on are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Trump is, quote objectively, well on the way to fascism if he isn't there already. Anyone who can't see that either isn't looking, is fine with fascism but are trying to pretend that they aren't, or simply so naive they're swallowing the crap spewed out by the alt-right media.
We've had all these things, long before Trump even announced his candidacy. Two weeks into his presidency, suddenly they are attributed solely to him?
 
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We've all these things, long before Trump even announced his candidacy. Two weeks into his presidency, suddenly they are attributed solely to him?

Some of those things might well exist in America, but until now they've not formed the core of government policy. Certainly the Obama, Bush, and Clinton administrations were not based on a dumb macho philosophy of projected power, and none of them were actively anti-intellectualist (although Bush himself wasn't bright). And no other President enacted anything like that ludicrous travel ban on certain countries from last week. A lot of people are comparing it to a travel ban Obama enacted. Such people don't know what they're talking about.

If you really think, after the last two weeks, that Trump hasn't moved very strongly in this direction then you're either not paying attention or you're being dishonest. There are no alternatives. As the title of this thread points out - it's absolutely blatant.
 
There are no alternatives.
You meant to say
[video=youtube;pez_79eWSWw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pez_79eWSWw[/video]

Seems I've said this before, but if you want to shun every opposing point of view as being wrong, you ought to be careful you don't end up akin to the very thing you are railing against.
 
I'd urge you to reconsider that. There has to be some kind of clause where you can make up your mind sooner if the situation warrants it. Not saying it does (I personally believe so, but hey), but as a general idea your reasoning is... dangerous. Imagine that, for example, a hypothetical president became mentally ill. Surely you would do the sensible thing and have an Acting President within a year, while the president gets the treatment he/she deserves?

Yes, of course.
What I meant was that people should give a new president (or any politician) more than two weeks to judge his actions.

If one person (no matter who) does become dangerous, though, they should be relieved of power, of course. But not by voters. They did their thing. That's something that other democratic institutions are for. The idea that some person takes a gun and will go to take care of the problem with a thought that "That is his right and duty" is so American that it makes my nose bleed. :D
 
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A core aspect of fascism for me is the totalitarian aspect, the non democracy bit...and the only people I currently see bleeping on democracy are the libtards. Trump Won, Brexit won...GET OVER IT and stop being a bunch of wimpy irritating pillocks. Libtardism is neofascism in disguise.
 
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A core aspect of fascism for me is the totalitarian aspect, the non democracy bit...and the only people I currently see bleeping on democracy are the libtards. Trump Won, Brexit won...GET OVER IT and stop being a bunch of wimpy irritating pillocks. Libtardism is neofascism in disguise.

Umm, hardly anyone is challenging the legitimacy of either of those. Some are, but most of us "libtards" (some cro-magnon level of speech there, good work). However, just because you "won" doesn't mean you get a safe space from fervent criticism. Grow a pair and defend yourself.
 

verminstar

Banned
Umm, hardly anyone is challenging the legitimacy of either of those. Some are, but most of us "libtards" (some cro-magnon level of speech there, good work). However, just because you "won" doesn't mean you get a safe space from fervent criticism. Grow a pair and defend yourself.

Well now there are quite a few attempting to challenge the legitiacy of the referendum in the UK with several court cases which might now go to the EU courts...irony.

These folks doing this have very little interest in actual democracy, even going as far as saying that only highly educated people should have the right to vote in the first place. A discussion about this actually took place on the brexit thread a while back with some remainers suggesting this very thing.

And then they wonder why we dont really take them seriously and poke fun at them. Its the fault of the right wing after all...thats the current mantra which they have gone to great lengths to rationalize. Its kinda sad tbh...thankfully though, those who make the choices in westminister more or less ignored them entirely. Ones faith in democracy and our right to choose has been upheld, much to the disapproval of some ^
 
Well now there are quite a few attempting to challenge the legitiacy of the referendum in the UK with several court cases which might now go to the EU courts...irony.

Not as far as I know. The major court case was more about deciding who had the power to make the decision (it was decided that a Parliament vote was required - this was taken last night), and I'm not aware of any others challenging the legitimacy of the vote itself.

That the referendum itself was badly worded, not legally binding (but was politically for the Conservatives), managed badly by the Government and clouded by a massive amount of lying and racism is a totally different bag of issues!
 
Could you give your rating of how this "roll out" of the immigration executive order went from an organisational point of view?

10 = Smooth as butter, professional and without a hitch
to
1 = Absolute debacle, headless chicken, nobody's got a clue.

I'm not asking about the content or intent of the order, that's irrelevant, I'm asking on your opinion on how the process went.

Honestly - as intended.
While the Trump sideshow dominates the media, clogs up the courts, and generally draws in all the social media outrage, the GOP will quietly continue its demolition work.
 

verminstar

Banned
Not as far as I know. The major court case was more about deciding who had the power to make the decision (it was decided that a Parliament vote was required - this was taken last night), and I'm not aware of any others challenging the legitimacy of the vote itself.

That the referendum itself was badly worded, not legally binding (but was politically for the Conservatives), managed badly by the Government and clouded by a massive amount of lying and racism is a totally different bag of issues!

Theres a fairly detailed report about it on the financial times homepage...I cant link stuff from here but its there, along with several other sources. Its the result of crowd sourcing the money to challenge the legitimacy of article 50 which, if they won, would halt it from ever being activated. Basically, its ignoring the result and the vote, and scrapping the entire process...thats their aim and they are now seeking to take the case to the highest courts in europe.

If theres any other way of translating that to something which supports democracy, then by all means...otherwise they are literally attempting to ignore the result by saying the referendum wasnt valid. It was valid to those of us who voted, regardless whether the referendum was legally binding or not.
 
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