General / Off-Topic The United Kingdom "close to the exit " ?

Darren Grey

Darren Grey
amigacooke said:
Scotland having an independence referendum means that democracy is working and people can make a choice.

The UK having an independence referendum means that the loonies have taken over and the people need to be protected from them.
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I think both things come down to the most extreme reaction, and the moderate choice never gets considered properly. Why is it always independence vs status quo rather than some chance of reform?

Though on the Scottish side I understand it from a cultural perspective. There more to independence than just cold reason and calculation.
 

Cody

Cody
<chortles>

Who dealt this mess anyway? Yeah, that’s an old card players term, but sometimes you can use the old switcheroo, and it can be applied to frontal politics. What I mean is, who was it that set-up a system, a supposedly democratic system, where you end-up always voting for the lesser of two evils...
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Rog

Rog
Eh, shouldn't discuss politics, but...
  • EU =/= Europe. One is a mere self-serving political construct, the other is generally a bunch of splendid people/places.
  • Self governance is seen as a 'good thing' for most countries. Apart from Britain, where you suddenly become a racist nutter.
  • Failed and ex-politicians often get nice jobs working for the EU with amazing pensions. Politicians love the EU. Quelle surprise.
  • Despite repeated requests, there's never been a proper cost/benefit analysis of the UK's membership of the EU. You have to speculate why...
  • Britain is always 'battling' or 'fighting its corner'. If it's of such obvious benefit and we're all friends, why is this the case?
  • Reform. Never. Going. To. Happen. Parliament is unable to change one comma of any legislation that emanates from the EU. Our politicians neglect to point this out. You have to speculate why.
  • Most politicians are horrific humans, and are not to be trusted, believed or allowed into your house.
  • Pretty sure a referendum's coming: We'll only ever get one chance to leave.
  • I like cake. Not particularly relevant, I know.
 

LCplCombat

L
icblue said:
Well I'm not so sure about that, don't forget the vote was 27 against one, so it wasn't just Germany.
What would it have looked like if England dictated the course for the other 27 and getting their way by pouting Juncker.
Also besides the point, Juncker isn't as bad as he's been tried to look like in the English press, I worked for over 10 years for him and I can tell you the man is capable..mostly he succeeds in bringing compromise to parties.
If DC is able to do compromise he should get along fine with him.
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There wouldn't have been a vote if Cameron hadn't asked for one. The head of the Council of Europe is appointed, not voted in.
 

Andrew Sayers

A
Another little point worth mentioning for those watching from the outside...

Part of the current anti-EU mood in the UK right now is about the Conservative party trying to stop a new third party (the UK Independence Party) from taking votes away from them at the next election. I don't think their strategy is particularly clever, but to explain why I need explain a bit of background...

Until recently, Britain had two main political parties (Labour and Conservatives) and one third party (Liberal Democrats). For all its faults, that created a level of stability - you knew one of the big two would have a majority in parliament, and you either voted for the one you wanted or the third party if you wanted to say "a plague on both your houses".

Unusually, at the last election nobody won an overall majority so the Conservatives allied with the third party to form a government. For all its strengths, that left the people of Britain looking for a new protest vote and the UK Independence Party (UKIP) seems to be filling the void. In reality that's probably because UKIP have a hilarious presentational style and are so hopelessly off-message that people vote for them out of pity, but the Conservative party are convinced it's about UKIP's policies, and that if they can just be a bit more extreme, voters will come back into the fold. Sadly, it will probably be too late before they remember they were getting people elected for buffoonery long before it was cool.
 

LCplCombat

L
Andrew Sayers said:
Another little point worth mentioning for those watching from the outside...

Part of the current anti-EU mood in the UK right now is about the Conservative party trying to stop a new third party (the UK Independence Party) from taking votes away from them at the next election. I don't think their strategy is particularly clever, but to explain why I need explain a bit of background...

Until recently, Britain had two main political parties (Labour and Conservatives) and one third party (Liberal Democrats). For all its faults, that created a level of stability - you knew one of the big two would have a majority in parliament, and you either voted for the one you wanted or the third party if you wanted to say "a plague on both your houses".

Unusually, at the last election nobody won an overall majority so the Conservatives allied with the third party to form a government. For all its strengths, that left the people of Britain looking for a new protest vote and the UK Independence Party (UKIP) seems to be filling the void. In reality that's probably because UKIP have a hilarious presentational style and are so hopelessly off-message that people vote for them out of pity, but the Conservative party are convinced it's about UKIP's policies, and that if they can just be a bit more extreme, voters will come back into the fold. Sadly, it will probably be too late before they remember they were getting people elected for buffoonery long before it was cool.
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The conservatives don't mind a bit of buffoonery themselves, look at Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Mayor of London and the next leader of the party.
 

icblue

icblue
LCplCombat said:
ref your points about England dictating the course for the rest of Europe, I'm confused, England doesn't have a presence in EU.
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England isn't part of the EURO currency countries, but it's part of the EU, this is precisely one of the points that creates ambiguity since it wants to decide (along) about monetary and economic guide lines.
Germany having too much of an influence in the EU is debatable, for sure Germany is one the strongest economic factors in the EU.
Honestly I prefer a strong Germany being kept in check within the EU than a Germany getting overpowered outside the EU, we've seen 2 times how this ended.
 

LCplCombat

L
icblue said:
England isn't part of the EURO currency countries, but it's part of the EU, this is precisely one of the points that creates ambiguity since it wants to decide (along) about monetary and economic guide lines.
Germany having too much of an influence in the EU is debatable, for sure Germany is one the strongest economic factors in the EU.
Honestly I prefer a strong Germany being kept in check within the EU than a Germany getting overpowered outside the EU, we've seen 2 times how this ended.
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England is not in the EU
 

LCplCombat

L
amigacooke said:
England is in the EU, it's part of the United Kingdom which is the poltical entity which joined the EEC way back when I was a lad.

Are you suggesting that England is being incorrectly used to refer to the UK?
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Give the man a cookie, Scotland and Wales has more power within UK than England does. England is geographically "IN" the EU but is not politically "in". It is entirely incorrect to say that England is a political entity within EU
 

Dogmeat

D
LCplCombat said:
Give the man a cookie, Scotland and Wales has more power within UK than England does. England is geographically "IN" the EU but is not politically "in". It is entirely incorrect to say that England is a political entity within EU
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You know, you could've just explained your point (however sarcastic and pedantic) the first time rather then making a cryptic remark. For a lot of foreigners, England=Uk. They are wrong in thinking this of course, but do you really expect the other 99% of the world to know, or care?

I don't like this attitude here that seems to assume the other 27 member states are always plotting against us. You go anywhere in Europe and you will hear the same complaints as we have here. The only difference perhaps, is that the media isn't stoking up the hysteria quite so much abroad, but then our domestic media likes to decide everything for us before we have a chance to vote ourselves!

Oh, and Scotland/Wales have more power then England? Rubbish. Maybe they wield more influence per head of population, but that is the classic formula of modern democracy: Majority Rule, Minority Rights. Without that, you get....Iraq.
 
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Darren Grey

Darren Grey
Andrew Sayers said:
In reality that's probably because UKIP have a hilarious presentational style and are so hopelessly off-message that people vote for them out of pity, but the Conservative party are convinced it's about UKIP's policies, and that if they can just be a bit more extreme, voters will come back into the fold. Sadly, it will probably be too late before they remember they were getting people elected for buffoonery long before it was cool.
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You miss the point where the Conservatives are losing millions of pounds of donor funding to UKIP. Alas, there is a very silly side to the Conservatives, and they seem to be the ones most particularly leaning towards UKIP. The Tory reaction is to try and grovel back to those people with weasely anti-immigration policies.
 

JeffRyan

JeffRyan
It isn't only Britain, there's a strong sense in Italy that the EU is wrong and it's a major point in Grillo's platform, who wants to take us out of the EU and the Euro.

Italians look back to the good old days of the 'Lira' when everyone was rich. Problem in Italy was that when the transfer to the Euro happened there was little control of pricing. A LOT of things that the day before cost 100 Lira (50 cents) now cost 1 EUR. A lot of things were like that, from a coffee to your rent. So the cost of living basically doubled because Italians were screwing each other over.

Then they blamed Europe.
 

Cosmos

C
amigacooke said:
My opinion is that the British press do not run the country even if they think they do.
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Sadly I think the 'free' press in the UK has far too much influence. Murdoch's rags being a prime example.

As for the EU I'd prefer to be out of it. There is absolutely no reason why the UK can't be a partner and trade with Europe but the EU institutions are undemocratic and far too many powers that should be held in the UK are in its hands.

Too much immigration in the UK has caused vast problems and its time we let the people have a say on the our future. ;)
 

Antmax

Antmax
Last time they had a vote on the EU constitution It was a farce that the EU cancelled and ignored after only a hand full of countries had their results in.

Holland voted 62% No France voted 55% No, Ireland voted no, the EU told them they had the wrong answer. Try again with the right answer. They then proceeded with a huge propaganda campaign with lots of consequences for Ireland if they said no.

In the end the whole thing collapsed and the EU parliament carried on as usual.

UK would do better joining up with countries that share the same fundamental principles. USA, Canada, Australia etc and form their own trading alliance that spans Europe and Asia. The UK still has ties with many commonwealth countries and could easily bridge the gap with Europe. America is basically built up from the British rule of law system but without the interference of a monarchy which is mostly ignored today anyway.
 
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