[multicrew] When your concerns become reality

[Junky Juke]

Here we are. The worst expectations about multicrew and VR have come to reality. Today a dream becomes a nightmare. Frontier decided to point their compass toward the console users and we can say goodbye to a true VR multicrew experience.
As shown in tonight's live stream it was revealed that the gunner role will be a horrible and dizziness inducting third person camera view with a HUD slapped on it. FD decided that the console joypad playerbase is the future of Elite and we are probably being left alone. I can't imagine how frustrating will be to control turrets from 3rd camera view for a VR user and I wish to express all my disappontment with Frontier. I was already concerned about all of this in my previous post here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/326812-My-concern-about-multicrew

and my hopes vanished when I discovered that they completely ignored their cool concept art to put together a poorly implemented, totally arcade console-style gunner station

Here it is a gif of the infamous third camera turret control from reddit:

https://gfycat.com/FantasticHugeBrontosaurus

A part from my personal rant, please folks express your opinions and thoughts about the upcoming multicrew and how it will work in VR. Let me now how do you feel. I personally think that I'm already done with MC. I can't accept that the development of Elite is going in that direction. The VR folks are going to be cut out of game content. It is unacceptable and unprofessional.

Your turn
JJ

 

[han]

Agree, can't say much positive about multicrew as a VR only player. Also sucked that SRV while in multicrew was a no go for people that wanted to explore together.
But I did like the Holo-me and the new camera features.

 

[paulkemp]

Do we have any facts on the percentage of ED users that are using VR? I dont know, but this group seem like the ppl who spend a lot on hardware (hotas, vr etc). Would be intersting to see how big percentage of the PC player base are using VR.

 

[Dsign]

Do we have any facts on the percentage of ED users that are using VR? I dont know, but this group seem like the ppl who spend a lot on hardware (hotas, vr etc). Would be intersting to see how big percentage of the PC player base are using VR.

I don't know about the percentage, but Frontier clearly is getting away from the hardcore sim they talked about at first. Not sure if it is as bad as we think, but I don't like it. [sad]

 

[Verlaine]

If the third-person gunner view in VR feels anything at all like the SRV turret in VR, then I'm not going to like it very much because the SRV turret in VR feels marginally uncomfortable at best.

 

[afreeflyingsoul]

Here we are. The worst expectations about multicrew and VR have come to reality. Today a dream becomes a nightmare. Frontier decided to point their compass toward the console users and we can say goodbye to a true VR multicrew experience.
As shown in tonight's live stream it was revealed that the gunner role will be a horrible and dizziness inducting third person camera view with a HUD slapped on it. FD decided that the console joypad playerbase is the future of Elite and we are probably being left alone. I can't imagine how frustrating will be to control turrets from 3rd camera view for a VR user and I wish to express all my disappontment with Frontier. I was already concerned about all of this in my previous post here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/326812-My-concern-about-multicrew

and my hopes vanished when I discovered that they completely ignored their cool concept art to put together a poorly implemented, totally arcade console-style gunner station

Here it is a gif of the infamous third camera turret control from reddit:

https://gfycat.com/FantasticHugeBrontosaurus

A part from my personal rant, please folks express your opinions and thoughts about the upcoming multicrew and how it will work in VR. Let me now how do you feel. I personally think that I'm already done with MC. I can't accept that the development of Elite is going in that direction. The VR folks are going to be cut out of game content. It is unacceptable and unprofessional.

Your turn
JJ

As an Oculus user, I'm going to reserve judgment until I see it first hand.

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If the third-person gunner view in VR feels anything at all like the SRV turret in VR, then I'm not going to like it very much because the SRV turret in VR feels marginally uncomfortable at best.

I actually prefer turret mode while using VR in the SRV, it's far more comfortable for me.

 

[JeffRyan]

Maybe, just maybe, it's the starting point for the technology that will be expanded upon when we have EliteFeet? Maybe.

In the meantime, looks and feels awesome to me and looking forward to hanging out with my friends. Not a combat players principally, but I am looking forward to this and I think it's worth testing the technology as a stepping stone to still greater things.

 

[Verlaine]

As an Oculus user, I'm going to reserve judgment until I see it first hand.

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I actually prefer turret mode while using VR in the SRV, it's far more comfortable for me.

Interesting. I find the disconnect between the turret camera and the SRV's movement disorienting, but I'm totally comfortable driving the SRV.

 

[Derek Speare [VR]]

Hopefully FD won't become another developer who steps on the necks of the very people who got them to this point.

For reference, there are 800+ confirmed VR users in iRacing who have put their name on the running list of names in the VR forum there. While not huge, it's not small considering the fact that many folks never visit forums and who'd not get counted.

FD - VR is the future. Overlook it to your regret.

As someone who is a Beta Backer and who has been doing ED in VR since the 0400 runtimes/DK2, I can say that ED is one of the most enjoyable VR experiences to be had...simply breathtaking at times...and I have iRacing, PCars, AC, Dirt, DCS, FSX (VR), P3d (VR) and XP10/11 (VR). For me no VR means no $$$. While consoles have volume, the hardcore/extreme PC market has ample $$$ and will spend it if the title offers fidelity, *realism* and value. The console demographic do not have the disposition to be "serious" about their gaming when they don't have a lot of skin in the game...but I am digressing...

3rd Person POV's in VR are likely instapuke sessions for many of us. I was hoping to be sitting in a copilot/gunner's seat with some type of in-game targeting reticule slaved to my head movement for gun control. Sticking the VR crewman outside the ship is really bizarre. I'll stick to my missions and exploration if that's how it will be :/

 

[Gore McSpace]

Yeah I was pretty disappointed about this too. The Turret Mode on the SRV is by far the worst bit of being a VR user in Elite and it looks like it's more of the same of that. Possibly worse, in fact, if you're floating around a spaceship that's spinning wildly below you as you aim the thing.

I think there are practical considerations to having a full headlook aim system though. First is that a great many VR users would be in trouble if they were expected to be able to look behind them, then there's the balance issue of it being far faster and easier to aim with your head than a joystick.

But I think there's a possible compromise here that would make the VR version of being a gunner more acceptable:

- The option to snap the camera to one of the 6 poles of the sphere (up, down, left, right, forward, backwards), so that the player, in the real world, only needs to face forwards.
- Have the targeting reticule automatically follow the player's headlook direction, but the reticule only tracks as fast as it's possible to move for console/desktop.
- The option just to directly control the targeting reticule as we currently have for the SRV turret for those that can cope with the nausea and enjoy this mechanic.

This would make it possible to completely eliminate motion sickness entirely in this mode (for those that want to) whilst conferring no special advantages one way or another.

I do hope Frontier consider something like this or, like the OP, I'm not going to be able to use this and that would be very sad.

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This would make it possible to completely eliminate motion sickness

Having said that it's one thing to be able to cope with ship motion when you're controlling it, it may be quite another altogether if someone else is flying the ship and you're whizzing around in space floating above it. It's possible that Gunner Mode may in fact end up being the most pukeatronic experience you can actually have in VR, anywhere, on any system.

 

[Verlaine]

Having said that it's one thing to be able to cope with ship motion when you're controlling it, it may be quite another altogether if someone else is flying the ship and you're whizzing around in space floating above it. It's possible that Gunner Mode may in fact end up being the most pukeatronic experience you can actually have in VR, anywhere, on any system.

I think it might be. The debug camera in VR makes me naseous because of the feeling of floating without a foundation.

 

[GMANTOR]

As an Oculus user, I'm going to reserve judgment until I see it first hand.

The voice of reason. The feature hasn't even been tried yet ! There are huge potential issues implementing this feature regardless of the direction and it seems to me that what they have come up with is a good practical way of representing the radar screen visually. We still live in the star wars "great kid, don't get cocky" turrent view mentality which simply wouldn't work for both VR and a screen. We need to try this before condemning it. I am sure the devs would have tried taking over a turrent and rejected it for practical reasons. I can only imagine how much experimentation was required before they settled on what they presented to us.

 

[avow555]

The console market is ripe for the picking it would seem for fdev.
To be honest the game has always been designed for console users from the outset. Clunky interface, woeful weapons management and all because of console control limitations.
Pc/Mac users basically funded this game but now we are not really being catered for as they have our money.

 

[Captain N]

While a third person camera may not be the optimal solution for VR, certainly not from the immersion POV, there's nothing to say it couldn't be made to work from the UX point of view. Just look at that bullet hell shooter type demo from The Lab.

I'd restrain commenting before we have our hands on the actual game. Sure if it's only "use joystick / mouse to orbit the camera" that's going to be a pretty poor show.

Let the user walk around a miniature version of the ship in roomscale and select targets with hand trackers and it's a different story.

 

[m0rl0ck]

Here we are. The worst expectations about multicrew and VR have come to reality. Today a dream becomes a nightmare. Frontier decided to point their compass toward the console users and we can say goodbye to a true VR multicrew experience.
As shown in tonight's live stream it was revealed that the gunner role will be a horrible and dizziness inducting third person camera view with a HUD slapped on it. FD decided that the console joypad playerbase is the future of Elite and we are probably being left alone. I can't imagine how frustrating will be to control turrets from 3rd camera view for a VR user and I wish to express all my disappontment with Frontier. I was already concerned about all of this in my previous post here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/326812-My-concern-about-multicrew

and my hopes vanished when I discovered that they completely ignored their cool concept art to put together a poorly implemented, totally arcade console-style gunner station

Here it is a gif of the infamous third camera turret control from reddit:

https://gfycat.com/FantasticHugeBrontosaurus

A part from my personal rant, please folks express your opinions and thoughts about the upcoming multicrew and how it will work in VR. Let me now how do you feel. I personally think that I'm already done with MC. I can't accept that the development of Elite is going in that direction. The VR folks are going to be cut out of game content. It is unacceptable and unprofessional.

Your turn
JJ

Geez that really is terrible. I had read posts on it but had no opinion since i hadnt seen it. I never liked that third person arcade kind of gameplay in sims and wont be buying any update that includes it. What were they thinking?
My guess is that there will soon be a third person camera for pilot flight. I was thinking about buying a new computer specifically to enhance my ED experience, i guess FD has saved me some money.

 

[Junky Juke]

The console market is ripe for the picking it would seem for fdev.
To be honest the game has always been designed for console users from the outset. Clunky interface, woeful weapons management and all because of console control limitations.
Pc/Mac users basically funded this game but now we are not really being catered for as they have our money.

When FD announced the xbox version of Elite a good part of my enthusiasm slowly started to die. Yesterday my suspects for a dumbed down game experience to accomodate the console requirements came to life.
Well that's it. PS4 is coming and they get ready to welcome an even wider casual players audience. But a part from that (I'm a tolerant person) what makes me sad is the developers ignoring the VR minority. How are we supposed to handle a third person cam with a joystick in our hands and a VR headset on our face? I have no idea, but I have very low expectations at this point.

Fingers crossed? not worth.

EDIT: it seems the at least some kind person is taking care of our doubts. The first question to the devs in the QA list here is about VR:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ANTED-Elite-Dangerous-2-3-Q-amp-A-Livestreams

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

The way I see it - positively.

VR is still catered for - yes the gunner viewpoint is outside the ship and can freely point the reticle towards whichever direction he/she chooses. Just like they're sitting in a ball turret in terms of the controls.
For accuracy, gunnery control will probably be easiest achieved with a mouse.

The gunner (in VR) will still be able to look around using the headset tracking. Just like the main pilot seat. And just like you can when you're controlling the SRV turret.

The gunner targeting reticle looks to be set to infinity (or at least a long way out), so parallax won't interfere with your aiming if you move your head about. The HUD you see as gunner will just stay wherever its pointed at - you'll be able to look away as you wish.

The ship presents the frame of reference, and conveniently does not block the line of sight.

I liked it. I hereby volunteer as gunner - its unlikely to affect me motion-sickness-wise.

FD isn't selling out to anyone here - they have to cater for most players. VR players are lets face it still only a small proportion. Who knows what the number actually is, but VR is still embronic at best. We are somewhat lucky to even have support for the Vive and Rift.

What would be nice is to see other VR-capable players having their HMD direction visible to the other players. Ie the default looking about animation is disconnected, and other crew see where you are looking. Dead and Buried has this functionality, as do many other VR multiplayer/social titles.

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EDIT: it seems the at least some kind person is taking care of our doubts. The first question to the devs in the QA list here is about VR:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ANTED-Elite-Dangerous-2-3-Q-amp-A-Livestreams

Ah yep, Alex is in there already fighting for VR suppository (whoops superiority!)

 

[Komemiute]

I don't know about the percentage, but Frontier clearly is getting away from the hardcore sim they talked about at first. Not sure if it is as bad as we think, but I don't like it. [sad]

Can youi please show me where Frontier stated "Harcore sim they talked about at first"? I follow Elite since the Kickstarter and it never gave me the impression FD was going that way- I might be wrong...

 

[Mendaharin Tusca]

Just using the external camera is bad enough for my stomach (srv however is no problem) don't even want to think what this... turret mode would do with my dinner.

 

[GaryII]

I agree with concerns, but good thing is we can ignore this multicrew feature and play like it never happened, just ignore and do not use it nobody forces you to use it..