General / Off-Topic Globalization Vs. Nationalism

I think theres some confusion as to what nationalism means to some...to me its the enemy. The IRA in northern ireland were staunchly nationalist as are all the republican parties...they are not what I support at all as they have little respect fer different cultures within their own borders.

Globalization...I view this as a buzzword used by the establishment to justify their financial decisions...Ill fight against that till my last breath because I hate the establishment with a passion. I ddnt see globalization as a good thing...why would I want to be united with a world full of people who I dont feel any connection with? Not to mention the part where this is not only a united ireland, which I have opposed my entire life and still strongly oppose, but a united planet?

Just no...I fear it would cause far more problems than it would solve...apart from the establishment who are in it to make profit...their ambitions are clear and they care little fer anyone else but themselves. The little people are nothing more than human resources to them...why would I want them in charge?
verminstar gives a good example of the imprecision of the terms "nationalist" and "globalist"

he also raises an interesting point.

Northern Ireland is a historical anomaly. Any sensible (in a geographical sense) drawing of national boundaries would have Ireland as one country.

Yet there would be many in the united Ireland who would identify more strongly with the UK than Ireland. Should Ireland become united and take a nationalist turn those people would (logically) be required to "go back to where they came from".

Of course a tolerant Ireland would seek to integrate those people, in the same way that there are many people in the UK, who identify as being from the UK whose ancestors came from Ireland (or Italy or Poland or wherever).

There is (without trying to dig at Verminstar) a certain irony to his position, in that being part of a larger group of countries where decisions that affect him are being taken over the water by a body who he didn't directly vote for is both exactly what he despises (the EU) and what he wants (NI to remain in the UK).

I would also argue that he makes the strawman argument, that globalisation is about a united (in the sense of one government) world.

I would use the term "united" to mean not "the global government" but the working together of the various national governments towards common goals - reduced poverty and disease, less warfare and violence, improved quality of life, not destroying our ecosystem.

This doesn't mean we all have to wear the same clothes, speak Chinglish and agree on religion.

another odd area of the nationalists (in OP sense) world view is that they often resent governments telling them what to do they want to be rugged individualists, fighting all who would prevent them living life how they want (I slightly exaggerate for effect). Yet they are often very happy to deny those exact rights to others. What about the boy growing up in Baghdad who wants to be a fashion photographer? The girl from Syria or Somalia who wants to be a Doctor or Engineer? How would they feel if, thorough the lottery of birth, they were born in North Korea? surely a fundamental right should be, if you don't like the country you are in (maybe it's too religious for you, or not religious enough, or too socialist or allows or doesn't allow , maybe they don't allow you to own guns), rather than change the country you are in, why not try and move to the country that suits you?

By effectively saying "you're stuck where you are born" you invite conflict. would the world not be a better place if all those who want to live in an extreame muslin theocracy, just went and lived there. If you want to live in a minimal government, minimal welfare country, just go and live there. Communist utopia your cup of tea? Go live there.

note that this line of reasoning (move country, don't try and change the country) rifts slightly into the "nationalist" arguments of Wilders and the like who are opposed to "non-dutch values" and also touches upon the tolerance paradox.
 
I have no use for nations.

Without nation states the world would be a pretty awkward place, in fact we'd still be tribal and there would be no progress at all, so i have to give the nations quite a bit of credit there, globalization is the next step in that progress.
 
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Globalization is just the latest term for a natural progression that already began thousands of years ago. From ancient times when Romans built the first roads to connect the parts of their empire the world has continously become smaller. Aristoteles already described humans as social beings (Zoon Politicon), it is in our nature to communicate, to exchange news, opinions and ideas. In former times our ancesters built ships and established caravan routes like the silk road to trade goods and conceptions, today we use the internet to chat and discuss worldwide.

Globalization is natural and trying to oppose it is like defying the odds that the earth is of spherical shape.

Last week I found this on Youtube:

[video=youtube;szt7f5NmE9E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szt7f5NmE9E[/video]

Already posted it in another thread and was very surprised that apparently noone noticed. Maybe it's because the video has a running time of 1 hour, but I find it definitely worth spending that time. Probably the smartest I heard about the topic.
 

verminstar

Banned
verminstar gives a good example of the imprecision of the terms "nationalist" and "globalist"

he also raises an interesting point.

Northern Ireland is a historical anomaly. Any sensible (in a geographical sense) drawing of national boundaries would have Ireland as one country.

Yet there would be many in the united Ireland who would identify more strongly with the UK than Ireland. Should Ireland become united and take a nationalist turn those people would (logically) be required to "go back to where they came from".

Of course a tolerant Ireland would seek to integrate those people, in the same way that there are many people in the UK, who identify as being from the UK whose ancestors came from Ireland (or Italy or Poland or wherever).

There is (without trying to dig at Verminstar) a certain irony to his position, in that being part of a larger group of countries where decisions that affect him are being taken over the water by a body who he didn't directly vote for is both exactly what he despises (the EU) and what he wants (NI to remain in the UK).

I would also argue that he makes the strawman argument, that globalisation is about a united (in the sense of one government) world.

I would use the term "united" to mean not "the global government" but the working together of the various national governments towards common goals - reduced poverty and disease, less warfare and violence, improved quality of life, not destroying our ecosystem.

This doesn't mean we all have to wear the same clothes, speak Chinglish and agree on religion.

another odd area of the nationalists (in OP sense) world view is that they often resent governments telling them what to do they want to be rugged individualists, fighting all who would prevent them living life how they want (I slightly exaggerate for effect). Yet they are often very happy to deny those exact rights to others. What about the boy growing up in Baghdad who wants to be a fashion photographer? The girl from Syria or Somalia who wants to be a Doctor or Engineer? How would they feel if, thorough the lottery of birth, they were born in North Korea? surely a fundamental right should be, if you don't like the country you are in (maybe it's too religious for you, or not religious enough, or too socialist or allows or doesn't allow , maybe they don't allow you to own guns), rather than change the country you are in, why not try and move to the country that suits you?

By effectively saying "you're stuck where you are born" you invite conflict. would the world not be a better place if all those who want to live in an extreame muslin theocracy, just went and lived there. If you want to live in a minimal government, minimal welfare country, just go and live there. Communist utopia your cup of tea? Go live there.

note that this line of reasoning (move country, don't try and change the country) rifts slightly into the "nationalist" arguments of Wilders and the like who are opposed to "non-dutch values" and also touches upon the tolerance paradox.

Repped ye because I can and because yer right, and I agree...weird how that happens now and then isnt it?

Im not gonna argue because I really have lost all interest in politics...there are other means of getting a message across and Im growing tired of always having my back against the wall. Republicans are not tolerant and we will never be accepted by them, hence there will be no compromises and there will be no peace.

One little favour though...just call me verm...thats my real life nickname and its not quite the mouthful of the full name...sound more informal ^
 
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Repped ye because I can and because yer right, and I agree...weird how that happens now and then isnt it?
it happens!

Im not gonna argue because I really have lost all interest in politics...there are other means of getting a message across and Im growing tired of always having my back against the wall. Republicans are not tolerant and we will never be accepted by them, hence there will be no compromises and there will be no peace.

One little favour though...just call me verm...thats my real life nickname and its not quite the mouthful of the full name...sound more informal ^
at the risk of staying back into politics, this was always one of the issues with Brexit.

inside the EU, both sides could (to some extent) have what they wanted. the loyalists could remain part of the UK and the republicans could, by virtue of freedom of movement, coupled with the common travel area and the good Friday agreement have an, on the ground, united Ireland (as in there would be no day to day barriers between the countries for everyday affairs).

now we are taking a step backwards (not all due to Brexit, some due, apparently, to burning wood) which is in nobodies interests.
 

verminstar

Banned
it happens!

at the risk of staying back into politics, this was always one of the issues with Brexit.

inside the EU, both sides could (to some extent) have what they wanted. the loyalists could remain part of the UK and the republicans could, by virtue of freedom of movement, coupled with the common travel area and the good Friday agreement have an, on the ground, united Ireland (as in there would be no day to day barriers between the countries for everyday affairs).

now we are taking a step backwards (not all due to Brexit, some due, apparently, to burning wood) which is in nobodies interests.

This has nothing to do with brexit, and all about politicians lining their own pockets and the pockets of a few chosen. Its the very thing that politicians the world over are good at...take Cameron and Brown fer instance. Two the biggest crooks in the game...we all in this together hmm?

I have little interest in what they do...politics in general I mean...they have failed in the most spectacular way. So its back to the alternatives the outside world dont want us going back to...that achieved results in the past and we gave them 18 years to get their act together...they have failed and the good friday agreement has failed...so on that note...the time fer pointless debates is over...they had their chance and blew it.

Ye have a good day and good luck to ye ^
 
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This has nothing to do with brexit, and all about politicians lining their own pockets and the pockets of a few chosen. Its the very thing that politicians the world over are good at...take Cameron and Brown fer instance. Two the biggest crooks in the game...we all in this together hmm?

I have little interest in what they do...politics in general I mean...they have failed in the most spectacular way. So its back to the alternatives the outside world dont want us going back to...that achieved results in the past and we gave them 18 years to get their act together...they have failed and the good friday agreement has failed...so on that note...the time fer pointless debates is over...they had their chance and blew it.

Ye have a good day and good luck to ye ^

sorry, I didn't mean the current power shifts and various crises in the NI political structure...that appears to be down to old fashioned political incompetence.

I was more referring to the GF agreement that underpins the above (which is highly dependent on both the UK and RoI boinf EU members) and more directly the border issues that will ensue from a hard Brexit.

Ultimately the EU and even Ireland won't suffer from any ensuing violence. The mainland Europeans will be perfectly fine and I doubt any loyalist terrorism will be able to reach into the RoI beyond a bit of kidnapping on the border. Of course any exported violence south will only make the border "harder" though this time from the south rather the north.

Ultimately the people who suffer will be the residents of NI (of both sides) and possibly the UK if the IRA go back to bombing the mainland, though I think that less likely.

I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that or anywhere near that.
 
Without nation states the world would be a pretty awkward place, in fact we'd still be tribal and there would be no progress at all, so i have to give the nations quite a bit of credit there, globalization is the next step in that progress.

I know I've praised him before, but Jared Diamond has a great treatise of our societal development from family troops, villages, clans / tribest, kingdoms and so forth, until the present day.
 
I know I've praised him before, but Jared Diamond has a great treatise of our societal development from family troops, villages, clans / tribest, kingdoms and so forth, until the present day.
He's wrong about some things, though!
 
He's wrong about some things, though!

Even if some details are contested, I doubt he's wrong about what I referred to above. The salty stuff from some archeologists regarding Easter Island is... well pretty bizarre from an ecologists point of view. If I was really rich, I might conduct an experiment with rats on an uninhabited island to see if the blighters drive a comparable palm tree to extinction on their own. I'd bet good money that they don't, and human logging is the key factor.
 
Even if some details are contested, I doubt he's wrong about what I referred to above. The salty stuff from some archeologists regarding Easter Island is... well pretty bizarre from an ecologists point of view. If I was really rich, I might conduct an experiment with rats on an uninhabited island to see if the blighters drive a comparable palm tree to extinction on their own. I'd bet good money that they don't, and human logging is the key factor.
It's far more intricate than that. You should watch this.
 

Minonian

Banned
I think we have forgotten that there is a difference between protectionism and nationalism.

Yeah... We don't because although there is true protectionism, but the truth is this just like patriotism, and usually you find something more ugly behind the mask, if you scratch the surface isn't that right alloy, and johhnyboy?

Hm?:)
 
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Globalisation is Liberalism and Modern Liberalism is Fascism.

At the heart of the globalisation model is a commitment to global corporations acting as the engines of economic growth and a belief that the wealth they create will trickle down to the rest of society. Instead, its policies lock wealth at the top, decreasing returns to 'unskilled' versus 'skilled' labour, increasing the number of people dislocated from their traditional livelihoods, decreasing access to food and vital social services, decreasing access of developing countries to the tools necessary to improve their social condition and strangling democracy.

Globalisation is Liberalism and Modern Liberalism Is Fascism In Disguise.


http://www.seanedwards.com/liberalism-fascism/

The Failure of Globalisation

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0955757022000010944
 
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Minonian

Banned
Furthermore? war is peace...

(insert sarcasm there)

Know what? Take the slippery slope reasoning elsewhere.
 
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Globalisation is Liberalism and Modern Liberalism is Fascism.

At the heart of the globalisation model is a commitment to global corporations acting as the engines of economic growth and a belief that the wealth they create will trickle down to the rest of society. Instead, its policies lock wealth at the top, decreasing returns to 'unskilled' versus 'skilled' labour, increasing the number of people dislocated from their traditional livelihoods, decreasing access to food and vital social services, decreasing access of developing countries to the tools necessary to improve their social condition and strangling democracy.

Globalisation is Liberalism and Modern Liberalism Is Fascism In Disguise.


http://www.seanedwards.com/liberalism-fascism/

The Failure of Globalisation

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0955757022000010944
no, globalisation does not decrease the returns to unskilled labour that's I dustrialisation and automation.

Imagine a world without robots, computers or machines but still trading freely (much like the ancient Mediterranean or much of the ancient world. No tariffs, no customs, no regulatory barriers (I know that those did exist but I dont believe as universally as now)

There would be loads of unskilled jobs, loading sacks of cargo, deck hands on ships, harvesting, simply digging and moving earth with picks and shovels.

Loads of work for anyone with some muscles, even the ability to read and write is optional.

Its not the reduction I trade barriers (globalisation) that has reduced the returns for unskilled work, it's mechanisation and latterly automation.

Why hire a dozen blokes with shovels when I.can hire one and a digger to do more work? Why have a ship with 60crew when a diesel engine and a dozen guys can move more whatever the wind does. Why have hundreds of guys carrying sacks off a boat by hand when a container and crane can unload faster? (it used to take days to unload a ship,now it can be done in a morning by a couple of people)

Globalisation is not your enemy, technology is. Which begs the question what are you doing on a forum that requires you to have a computer - one of the ultimate expressions of a global supply chain and world trade?
 
Nationalism but at the same time be open Globally, but on terms that do not undermine yourself too much.

This is the kind of stance places like Switzerland take and they seem to do ok.

It is not a simple line to take, it is full of nuances and difficult choices.
 
Globalisation is not your enemy, technology is.

I'm not entirely sure where this romantic view of "the old times" comes from.
I personally met quite a few of my "ancestors" (including two great grandfathers, one great grandmother, both grandfathers, both grandmothers) .. they never painted that "rosy picture" of the "good old times". It was mostly getting up at 5am, working 8 hours on the fields, 6 hours in a quarry to make some extra money, day in, day out.
By the time they hit their 60ies, their bodies were spent and in constant pain. Thanks to modern medicine (and social security), they still managed to have rather good lives and got pretty old (85-100 respectively).

Growing up in a really backwards part of "agricultural" communististan, these things here were still "a thing":
washerwoman.jpg


pic11.jpg


plowing-with-horse-team-edited-c.jpg

Looks like fun plowing a field with horses? Yea, until your back is bent and in pain, your knuckles arthritic and your skin is so leathery, it don't even develop callus
 
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