Combat limpets a missed opportunity?

[Hexcaliber]

[Proposal] Combat limpets a missed opportunity?

During a streamers chat yesterday it occurred to me that much more could be done with limpets in game, including more limpets geared to combat; and after talking about them in that chat, they thought them a good enough idea that they could stand being posted about here in the suggestion forums.

I had proposed the introduction of several new combat limpet. The first being one that adds a small amount of drag or mass to a target ship, on its own not enough to really affect the handling of a ship except perhaps fighters, but manage to get a few on before they start to expire and they could begin to affect a ships acceleration, top speed, and turn rate.

The second was a limpet that drains a targets power distributor, again like the first, not really noticeable on its own, but having a cumulative impact when several make it to the hull of the target ship.

The third was a variation on the above, but slowing down power distributor re-gen. Another would directly affect a shields power, slowly reducing it as more sit on the targets hull to the point that it starts drawing sys power from the power distributor or affecting the shields re-gen rate.

The fourth were limpets that have a small percentage chance to cause a random system failure, shutting the system down for the duration of the limpet. Additional limpets would not increase the number of failures, only the chance to cause failure in a single random system, that system failure would also end when the first limpet expired, and another roll would take place to see if another system is shut down in its place.

The fifth was a limpet that had a cumulative affect on players sensors, either reducing the overall range or introducing a small amount of jitter to turrets and gimball’s

The sixth and an idea that was not mine came from someone in chat, sorry I forgot your name; but he suggested a limpet that would affect the FSD spool up time, so ships would take longer to jump away.

Of course by this point anyone reading this is thinking the same as the folks in that chat were, these would be overpowered. However, I suggested adjusting EMP so it would also act as a counter to limpets attached to a ships hull, and of course we also have point defence to stop them getting to the hull in the first place. Provided the impact of the limpets was tuned, I do not believe, and nor did they that they would disturb balance at all. It actually opens up new build possibilities and even the potential for one or more ships in a wing focusing on limpet warfare or anti limpet warfare builds as an adjunct to damage dealers. If you also include a boost to limpet range on trading ships, then suddenly trade ships have a potential role in combat beyond the current comedy builds.

Of course there is a caveat in that NPC's do not have all the ship systems to manage that players have to contend with. Therefore in order to make them useful against all ships, not just other players, that would have to change forcing some rebalancing and extra load on AI routines. I do feel however, that it would be a worthwhile addition, as frankly, the game could do with a few more combat options beyond the small handful of weapon types we currently have.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I'd be all for extra combat limpets, but on the condition they have two counters.
One passive, which is point defence(PDs shred limpets!).
And the other skill based. Which is basically performing high G manoeuvres, boosting, etc, to shake them off sooner.

That said, the Webber and warp scrambler from Eve online basically became the ultimate ganking tool. Lol
People used to stack those against their targets, basically preventing them from moving at all, or escaping.
Which when used "as intended" aids piracy. It really just ends up on the gankers meta.

 

[Tryst]

I'd rather not have webbers etc here, I had a gut full of them in Eve. If Chaff and PDS can destroy/divert them then it's no problem but unless that happens, I think you'll end up with more complaints on the forums than thanks for introducing them to this game.

As CMDR_Cosmicspacehead said, I think all it will achieve is to turn the game from a game into a gankers paradise.

 

[Hexcaliber]

I'd rather not have webbers etc here, I had a gut full of them in Eve. If Chaff and PDS can destroy/divert them then it's no problem but unless that happens, I think you'll end up with more complaints on the forums than thanks for introducing them to this game.

As CMDR_Cosmicspacehead said, I think all it will achieve is to turn the game from a game into a gankers paradise.

I was not suggesting they should create such a profound effect that ships could be completely immobilised by limpets alone, just hampered somewhat. Unlike EVE there are no ships in ED that are dedicated to particular types of warfare able to boost the combat utility to silly levels.

However, having ECM and point defence as counters as I originally suggested would increase their desirability in builds. ECM in particular is never used, a single pulse having the ability to remove and neutralise any limpets currently attached to the players ship would improve its utility and desirability. Further, players looking to use combat limpets would have to sacrifice one or more internals for the appropriate limpet controller’s. Internals which are often used to improve the armour tank, resulting in a reasonable trade off between combat utility and survivability should you wish to use them.

Frankly, combat is rather boring atm, it all comes down to the best tank and highest dps, having additional combat utility would change the combat landscape and open the door for more variety.

 

[Tryst]

Frankly, combat is rather boring atm, it all comes down to the best tank and highest dps, having additional combat utility would change the combat landscape and open the door for more variety.

But then you make the game far too complicated by adding too many variables. What you end up with is an Eve style spreadsheet game that allows you to calculate all the variables for an effective build. In the end, it still comes down to tank/DPS just like Eve does. The countermeasures simply become a "must have" regardless of your build and that immediately gimps the speed and jump range builds.

We already have diversity, those who want speed and range already trade tanking and DPS and those who want combat, trade speed and range. Traders give up tanking, speed and range for the most part for cargo capacity, Pythons with size 5 shields to free up a size 6 slot for more cargo space for example, the extra tonnage also slows you down and reduces your jump range somewhat.

 

[StiTch]

A while back I said that if FD keep adding combat mechanics, we'll soon end up with souped up ships deploying multiple SLFs, remote bombardment weapons, kamikaze jetpack slaves....and limpet swarms.

*sigh*

Frankly, combat is rather boring atm, it all comes down to the best tank and highest dps, having additional combat utility would change the combat landscape and open the door for more variety.

Very false. Sorry bud.

You make combat interesting...by letting the player actually do something. Which engineers notably put the first sledgehammer to.

Absolutely no more combat mechanics. I can only hope that season 2 onwards spreads outwards and they consider combat something that just has to be polished, not added to. And that is because I love combat.

Fighting has been far less engaging since I can just throw SLFs at the enemy with FA Off sitting at 4/0/2 whenever I am being fired on. Heaven knows what MC will feel like when some other git is firing my weapons for me. Why people think that pressing a button or two and insta-winning is engaging I'll never know.

 

[Hexcaliber]

A while back I said that if FD keep adding combat mechanics, we'll soon end up with souped up ships deploying multiple SLFs, remote bombardment weapons, kamikaze jetpack slaves....and limpet swarms.

*sigh*



Very false. Sorry bud.

You make combat interesting...by letting the player actually do something. Which engineers notably put the first sledgehammer to.

Absolutely no more combat mechanics. I can only hope that season 2 onwards spreads outwards and they consider combat something that just has to be polished, not added to. And that is because I love combat.

Fighting has been far less engaging since I can just throw SLFs at the enemy with FA Off sitting at 4/0/2 whenever I am being fired on. Heaven knows what MC will feel like when some other git is firing my weapons for me. Why people think that pressing a button or two and insta-winning is engaging I'll never know.

It is not false at all, currently combat boils down to nothing more than tank and dps in pve and pvp, that's all it has ever been. Your own statement that you “can just throw SLFs at the enemy with FA Off sitting at 4/0/2 whenever I am being fired on” is proof of that. You have nothing more to do than pew pew until one or the others tank fails and they then run or die, it has always been that way.

Engineers did not change combat one iota, tanks got tougher, dps rose higher, and the status quo remained; it is boring and predictable. Many of the experimental effects are little more than gimmicks with relatively low value in pvp compared to the handful that everyone now engineer for, and if all you are doing is fighting npc's you do not need to use engineers at all.

With more mechanics and more counters there is more to be aware of, more for the player to manage, and wider scope for build diversity. If you really do want the player to have more to do in combat you need diversity; even more so now with MC taking control of systems from the player and handing them off to others.

 

[StiTch]

It is not false at all, currently combat boils down to nothing more than tank and dps in pve and pvp, that's all it has ever been. Your own statement that you “can just throw SLFs at the enemy with FA Off sitting at 4/0/2 whenever I am being fired on” is proof of that. You have nothing more to do than pew pew until one or the others tank fails and they then run or die, it has always been that way.

Engineers did not change combat one iota, tanks got tougher, dps rose higher, and the status quo remained; it is boring and predictable. Many of the experimental effects are little more than gimmicks with relatively low value in pvp compared to the handful that everyone now engineer for, and if all you are doing is fighting npc's you do not need to use engineers at all.

With more mechanics and more counters there is more to be aware of, more for the player to manage, and wider scope for build diversity. If you really do want the player to have more to do in combat you need diversity; even more so now with MC taking control of systems from the player and handing them off to others.

So you've slammed engineers and their lack of addition to combat, which was introducing more combat mechanics, but believe that the game is lacking...because we need more combat mechanics?

In any case, your whole statement reads: an increase in the "rock, paper, scissors" aspect of fighting.

I.e. within a ship's limited internals, these are what I could bring, and on inspecting a target and seeing his modules I already know whether I've won, because my counters and attack method are built to topple his kind of build.

A dev made a very poignant comment a while back before 2.1, that meta builds are good, because it means people are fighting on equal ground. I would love to remember who made that comment because it's the one of the very few notions made by a dev that shows any appreciation for PvP...I don't like the idea of meta loadouts, but a controlled one - i.e. more interesting than the previous SCB meta - has got to be better than this, where victory is not skill based but loadout based. I objected to his comment but with experience I see exactly at least the angle he was coming from. Preceding 2.1, in hindsight it certainly had an ominous air of prediction to it.

Now, I am a chap that appreciated the art of building loadouts, in any game. It may sound laughable to you, but online Pokemon games are brutal. What you fit into your moveset of four moves, and in general what you bring to the game, is very important. But the game allows for dynamic shifts. ED however does not. What you bring...is what you bring. And if you find someone who has tools that are advantageous over you, that's it. Skill goes out the window.

And so I am sorry to say but I know what I am talking about when I say that bringing a gazillion and one tools does not make combat more engaging. It means in PvE you press a couple more buttons at the start of the fight, and then for the rest of the fight most of your tools are doing the work for you, and in PvP you may as well not even need to start the fight to win.

Thanks for the chuckle, because seeing combat limpets has been both directly funny and amusing to see my prediction come to light, but just no. This is either very misunderstood, or you think that "interesting" combat is pressing a few buttons and watching your enemy disintegrate.