General / Off-Topic Globalization Vs. Nationalism

Nationalism but at the same time be open Globally, but on terms that do not undermine yourself too much.

This is the kind of stance places like Switzerland take and they seem to do ok.

It is not a simple line to take, it is full of nuances and difficult choices.
this quite true, one can look after your own country's interests and trade globally.

In fact that's the only reason to trade globally (or at all).

What confuses people is that a countries interests (as in the entirety of the population) might not be in the interests of certain individuals or groups.

Take steel. If you are a steel producer, cheaper steel from abroad is not welcome.

If you are a steel consumer - not just making but buying and maintaining anything with steel in it (i.e. pretty much everyone who isn't employed in the steel producing industry) then cheaper steel from abroad is welcome as it reduces the cost (and price) of everything.

So although a few tens of thousand or even a hundred thousand jobs might go if you allow cheap imported steel, millions of people might be better off because their cars cost less, because their firm can make widgets cheaper and compete on the global market more effectively thus employing more people (some of whom might have been in the steel industry) and so on.

As you say, it's a careful balancing act. If you are a steel worker (or dependent o steel production) you would like your country to protect (tariffs and subsidies) steel but allow lumber, computers, clothes, cheese, beef, grain etc in so tou have a job but food, clothes, consumer goods etc are cheaper.

On the other hand if you were a farmer you'd want tariffs and subsidies on agricultural products but would like cheep steel so your machinery is cheaper etc.

So one reading of nationalism (as it trying to do the best by your country) would be to be as pro globalisation (increased trade) as possible because more trade means a better average standard of living (although it may go down for some segments) for your population.
 
Last edited:
this quite true, one can look after your own country's interests and trade globally.

In fact that's the only reason to trade globally (or at all).

What confuses people is that a countries interests (as in the entirety of the population) might not be in the interests of certain individuals or groups.

Take steel. If you are a steel producer, cheaper steel from abroad is not welcome.

If you are a steel consumer - not just making but buying and maintaining anything with steel in it (i.e. pretty much everyone who isn't employed in the steel producing industry) then cheaper steel from abroad is welcome as it reduces the cost (and price) of everything.

So although a few tens of thousand or even a hundred thousand jobs might go if you allow cheap imported steel, millions of people might be better off because their cars cost less, because their firm can make widgets cheaper and compete on the global market more effectively thus employing more people (some of whom might have been in the steel industry) and so on.

As you say, it's a careful balancing act. If you are a steel worker (or dependent o steel production) you would like your country to protect (tariffs and subsidies) steel but allow lumber, computers, clothes, cheese, beef, grain etc in so tou have a job but food, clothes, consumer goods etc are cheaper.

On the other hand if you were a farmer you'd want tariffs and subsidies on agricultural products but would like cheep steel so your machinery is cheaper etc.

So one reading of nationalism (as it trying to do the best by your country) would be to be as pro globalisation (increased trade) as possible because more trade means a better average standard of living (although it may go down for some segments) for your population.

You make a good point. I think we also have to take into consideration not only resource consumption, but possibly production as well. I can't be certain, but from what I understand there are some countries that pretty much have a strangle hold on the production of specific resources. If we look at oil, while every country possibly has a little, some countries like Saudi Arabia have a huge amount. I am certain there are some countries that are the single producers of some resources. I can not remember an example (though I saw one the other day). In these cases a lot of times production or mining is done by the poorest class in the country and they are paid pennies while mine owners from other countries reap huge profits. The video I saw recently was about mining in the Congo for a specific mineral. They even force children to do it, while Chinese mine owners hang out in steel cages so they can't be murdered by the miners. If I understood the video correctly the Congo was the single producer of this mineral/natural resource.

I wonder what impact a truly global community would have on the way this is mined and the labor force used? Proponents of nationalism would likely argue that this is a concept of globalism gone wrong, and to a degree I agree. However, would laws that stretch world wide fix this situation and see the labor force properly paid and taken care of? As well as child labor abolished allowing those children to go to school?

[sorry guys still on my phone away from home so this post reads like a monkey rattling a cage].
 
Last edited:
I can't be certain, but from what I understand there are some countries that pretty much have a strangle hold on the production of specific resources.

Yes, but the influence of global hedge funds on supply/prices is much larger.

http://www.cadtm.org/Banks-speculate-on-raw-materials
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704302304575214751506003906
http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/12/10/do-hedge-funds-manipulate-stock-prices/
https://phys.org/news/2012-12-hedge-funds-stock-prices.html

The newest ressource hype is "rare earths" - used in electronic device production:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eral-miners-Africa-use-bare-hands-coltan.html
 
Last edited:
Fuzzy, I'd like to point out piece of the puzzle regarding Lysander which you seem to have forgotten. For all his zeal about nationalism and England, he lives abroad and doesn't intend to go back. To me that's hilariously hypocritical, and underscores your point of enjoying all the fruits of a global world and the right to live where he chooses.


I got 3 passports, And I can LEGALLY live in 3 countries (born in one of them), which I do, that took me 30 years to get! I served each country well, and was rewarded with a citizenship. Globalizeme didn't make this happen I did!

Most people just want to be freeloaders, however if you already are rooted in a place and someone deside that they can just come and live in your garden or in your house, expect people will fight back.

You're welcome to have a different opinion than I do, but I'm not going to just bend over just because "some" people think they can just decide how I should live my life.

Take ownership of your own life, and for christ sake, some people in this world should stop whining.
 

Minonian

Banned
What you forget? EU is not a freeload. Since, you not just got access to the other nations territory, but a sort of united law and other things also entering to the picture. This is comes with restrictions, and changes in the nations movement of field, and self governance? Of course it does! Without a united law and bureaucratic system it's next to impossible to keep the whole mess together.

But to call this dictatorship, as the R right and tin foil hatters doing it? It's just stupid.
 
Globalizeme didn't make this happen I did!

Unless you made the laws in those 3 countries, you didn't.
Legally becoming a citizen of another country is not an individual achievement.
Neither is keeping more than 1 passport.
I lost my citizenship before I left grade school. Family had to give it up in order to attain another one which we only got trough ius sanguinis.
Ah, and my college roommate got his double passports because he's born in a country with ius territorialis but of a ius sanguinis ethnicity.

All of that is a huge pile of rubbish.
 
Last edited:
I got 3 passports, And I can LEGALLY live in 3 countries (born in one of them), which I do, that took me 30 years to get! I served each country well, and was rewarded with a citizenship. Globalizeme didn't make this happen I did!

Most people just want to be freeloaders, however if you already are rooted in a place and someone deside that they can just come and live in your garden or in your house, expect people will fight back.

You're welcome to have a different opinion than I do, but I'm not going to just bend over just because "some" people think they can just decide how I should live my life.

Take ownership of your own life, and for christ sake, some people in this world should stop whining.
You are getting mixed up between globalisation (the reduction of trade barriers and increase in trading complexity) and globalism (simplified as wanting a one world government with no nations)

Of course you will be angry if "freeloaders just come and live in your garden or in your house" - who wouldn't be? But I challenge you to come up with a single example of non UK citizens legally forcing out someone from their house/garden (Daily Mail/Express/Sun or in fact any other newspaper articles don't count, try and find a reputable report, maybe court papers or a UK broadcast news organisation as they have a legal obligation to be "reported with due accuracy and presented with due impartiality.")
 
You are getting mixed up between globalisation (the reduction of trade barriers and increase in trading complexity) and globalism (simplified as wanting a one world government with no nations)

That's a very narrow definition of globalisation, too.
We could go with this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization

That it somehow relates to freeloading (while we use our electronic devices that all require rare earth materials which are procured under conditions we don't even want to think about) is just willfull bliss.
 
Last edited:
That's a very narrow definition of globalisation, too.
We could go with this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization

That it somehow relates to freeloading (while we use our electronic devices that all require rare earth materials which are procured under conditions we don't even want to think about) is just willfull bliss.

I agree it's a narrow definition but I'd say the " process of international integration arising from the interchange of world views, products, ideas, and other aspects of culture" are side effects of making trade (and personal travel) easier rather than the end goal.

So the making easier of trade and travel leads to people who in previous generations might never have left their home town or met anyone who didn't look and talk like them (my grandfather in law left his home country twice in his life and never met a person who wasn't white) to interact with people who are very different.

Think of the UK without Indian or Asian food, without Bollywood, Hollywood or Manga cinema, music from the US, the Caribbean, dance from Latin America and Europe. Even the English language is made up of words from around the world and our numbers 0-9 are the result of the exchange of ideas between Europe and the Muslim world.

Those are the results of people, goods and ideas moving, not as part of some sinister plot to force "international integration".
 
I do not see still the link with EU

:)

The EU or even the UN is a smaller model of a global network of communities that have tied themselves together as an initiative. Think of it as a trial run at globalism as a scale that exists to make commerce, trade, and even migration of the population easier while still maintaining the identities of the partner nations.

Likely one day, way, way in the future something similar will happen on a planetary scale. Take the Federation for example, either from Elite Dangerous itself or from Star Trek...
 

Minonian

Banned
I do not see still the link with EU. No need of EU to buy the tea. And a country like the UK can buy tea very easily. No money problem

:)

Of course you don't If england economy have hard times, and the foreign goods also have harder time to reach UK than tea cost going to increase, and availability decrease, while the pays also decrease. You see where the problem?
And let me tell you something. If someone saying me i can't drink my tea, because blah blah? Well... Let's just say i'm going to hang him up to the nearest tree. And I'm not English! tea my friend, is a serious business.

Not an end of the world situation, but still?


Can you link in something where i don't need to subscribe for cash?

Yeah... Upps! :D

- - - Updated - - -

Think of England without tea. :D

I foresee a revolution! :D
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom