Trading in Ships needing Large Landing Pads

[Hooplah]

Greetings,

There seems to be a large disparity when Trading using ships requiring a large landing pad versus medium pads. A Cutter, the ultimate trading ship, at best can make about 3M credits per run (usually at least 2 jumps) with an average more likely at 2-2.5M. A Python, the ultimate medium trader doing cargo missions can easily best this at 5.5M with an average of 2.5-3M.

A Cutter could stay in port for an hour plus accepting cargo missions to fill up but the Python would easily complete many more missions in the same amount of time. Missions that sometimes redirect to another system/station would fail in a Cutter if directed to a medium landing pad. Thus the ultimate trading Cutter now has a backseat to other trading opportunities and often sits in the hangar. Might I suggest:

Increase the profits on a few (or even one) commodities so that a Cutter can hit a best at 5M and an average of 2.5-3.5M. Smaller transports would obtain a very small gain and would not be game breaking to any degree. This also would not change the cargo mission values using these commodities as there is already a limit not related to what is actually being transported. E.G. transport Biowaste for 800,000 credits? Right.

In this way players will feel that the Cutter is useful again without taking away the great profits that a Python can make. This gives the players an opportunity to fly either which is balance and those who love the Cutter can park the Pythons they are currently flying...or use them for other play styles.

My Cutter looks at me with sad eyes when I return to home base...I feel guilty!

Regards

 

[Lestat]

Can you tell us the status of the stations your talking about. Are they both Large station and small station in a economic boom or not?

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

If you wanna have much money, than you shouldn't be so picky when taking missions
Take your cutter to a boom system and take every delivery mission you get, doesn't matter than which factions but better be allied with them for even better payout. You won't get redirected to outposts. This was fixed long time ago. And than fill all remaining space with random profit making cargo to your destinations. You make really much money this way.
In Elite money gets count in time. It doesn't really matter how big your ship is for missions, only how often you wanna fly and how much time you have.

But please don't campare bulk trading with missions at the same time with different ships

 

[Hooplah]

Can you tell us the status of the stations your talking about. Are they both Large station and small station in a economic boom or not?

OK! Starting system 6 out of 7 factions allied in Boom state. Many factions in a dozen local systems allied with 5 in Boom state. Populations 3k - 2.5B. All station types visited. Elite trading rank. It's the ideal trading scenario thus the credits obtained per evaluation using both ships.

 

[Hooplah]

If you wanna have much money, than you shouldn't be so picky when taking missions
Take your cutter to a boom system and take every delivery mission you get, doesn't matter than which factions but better be allied with them for even better payout. You won't get redirected to outposts. This was fixed long time ago. And than fill all remaining space with random profit making cargo to your destinations. You make really much money this way.
In Elite money gets count in time. It doesn't really matter how big your ship is for missions, only how often you wanna fly and how much time you have.

But please don't campare bulk trading with missions at the same time with different ships

Thanks as I forgot about the pad fix for large ships doing missions. I forget alot! I have run cargo missions with the Cutter per testing and many times before. Given both ships running full load cargo missions the Python makes up to 2.5 times more profits over the Cutter in the same amount of time. I also do not care about this or want to change it.

Rare commodities and general trading profits have been nerfed in the past. Simply adding a little to the bulk trading will make it more competitive again with other forms of trading.

 

[goemon]

edit; corrected myself here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Landing-Pads?p=5289112&viewfull=1#post5289112
__
when i was doing elite in trading, i was running running state depending routes between 4500 - 6100 cr/t profit a-b-a, so between 3,2 mio and 4,4 mio per a-b-a run in my cutter - most of them two jump roues, some 1 jump routes.

that cumulated to 12-16 mio per hour profit, 15-20 mio would have been possible, too.

i couldn't finish or get the same amount of missions in my python.

there are over 30 commodities providing over 2000 cr/t profit depending on states.

i don't think any buff is needed.

state depending trading is the large ships equivalent to mission running.

but generally, if you don't enjoy bulktrading and scouting routes, a python running missions from boom state stations can come close to 10 mio a hour. the huge ships are simply no mission runners.

 

[goemon]

If you wanna have much money, than you shouldn't be so picky when taking missions
Take your cutter to a boom system and take every delivery mission you get, doesn't matter than which factions but better be allied with them for even better payout.

actually the better strategy is the opposite. find a good paying state depending route, and pick up fetch missions which you can supply on the other end of your route.

as fetch missions are generated from demand commodities, most of the fetch missions will be for something the station you are importing from will anyway sell.

 

[Hooplah]

when i was doing elite in trading, i was running running state depending routes between 4500 - 6100 cr/t profit a-b-a, so between 3,2 mio and 4,4 mio per a-b-a run - most of them two jump roues, some 1 jump routes.

that cumulated to 12-16 mio per hour profit, 15-20 mio would have been possible, too.

i couldn't finish or get the same amount of missions in my python.

there are over 30 commodities providing over 2000 cr/t profit depending on states.

i don't think any buff is needed.

state depending trading is the large ships equivalent to mission running.

but generally, if you don't enjoy bulktrading and scouting routes, a python running missions from boom state stations can come close to 10 mio a hour. the huge ships are simply no mission runners.

Thanks Goemon for your sincere reply as always. Profits have been reduced in the past and for the last month I was lucky to get past 4000c/t with 3000-3600c/t the norm. It appears that 6000c/t is long gone. Meanwhile my Cutter can make 12m/h bulk trading. My last Python cargo mission run did 12M in 31 minutes including 1 interdiction. As trading by definition is about profits then the business decision is to park the Cutter and invest in the Python. Hopefully a slight adjustment will balance that out a little...an analogy might be the commuter airline making twice the profits of the global one. Doesn't feel right but I'm not even asking for that. Regards

 

[Kosmetas]

Cargo missions, we don't need no stinking cargo missions?!?!

This the most ridiculous tread about comparing to different trade ships, hell one isn't even a full trader. The cutter can trade in bulk which is what makes it the top trading vessel. The Python can land anywhere which makes it the top smuggler. Find any profitable trade route and I will run my cutter against your python all day long. I will have more credit in the end.

Cargo missions or holding you back my friend.

Python: 292t
Cutter: 792t

You do the math...

 

[Hooplah]

Cargo missions, we don't need no stinking cargo missions?!?!

This the most ridiculous tread about comparing to different trade ships, hell one isn't even a full trader. The cutter can trade in bulk which is what makes it the top trading vessel. The Python can land anywhere which makes it the top smuggler. Find any profitable trade route and I will run my cutter against your python all day long. I will have more credit in the end.

Cargo missions or holding you back my friend.

Python: 292t
Cutter: 792t

You do the math...

This is the most ridiculous reply! I did the math. I made the runs. I can make 2-2.5 times the profits of a Cutter in a Python doing cargo missions. NOT smuggling missions just basic cargo transport. Your Cutter won't even come close with either cargo missions or bulk trading. Thus why bother flying a Cutter or is your trading play style more oriented to higher running costs and decreased profits...You do the math...

 

[Strangepork]

Greetings,

There seems to be a large disparity when Trading using ships requiring a large landing pad versus medium pads. A Cutter, the ultimate trading ship, at best can make about 3M credits per run (usually at least 2 jumps) with an average more likely at 2-2.5M. A Python, the ultimate medium trader doing cargo missions can easily best this at 5.5M with an average of 2.5-3M.

A Cutter could stay in port for an hour plus accepting cargo missions to fill up but the Python would easily complete many more missions in the same amount of time. Missions that sometimes redirect to another system/station would fail in a Cutter if directed to a medium landing pad. Thus the ultimate trading Cutter now has a backseat to other trading opportunities and often sits in the hangar. Might I suggest:

Increase the profits on a few (or even one) commodities so that a Cutter can hit a best at 5M and an average of 2.5-3.5M. Smaller transports would obtain a very small gain and would not be game breaking to any degree. This also would not change the cargo mission values using these commodities as there is already a limit not related to what is actually being transported. E.G. transport Biowaste for 800,000 credits? Right.

In this way players will feel that the Cutter is useful again without taking away the great profits that a Python can make. This gives the players an opportunity to fly either which is balance and those who love the Cutter can park the Pythons they are currently flying...or use them for other play styles.

My Cutter looks at me with sad eyes when I return to home base...I feel guilty!

Regards

http://inara.cz/data/sigs/16/16836.png​

The profits per ton can be a tinsy-wincy bit higher at outposts but all-in a Cutter with 640 tons of cargo space can reliably make you 2milo plus per two jumps. Which is a half decent Mission reward, I do it for nostalgia reasons these days after breaking myself making trade Elite a year ago.

 

[goemon]

Thanks Goemon for your sincere reply as always. Profits have been reduced in the past and for the last month I was lucky to get past 4000c/t with 3000-3600c/t the norm. It appears that 6000c/t is long gone.

it's not long gone.

currently looking at a route for 5112 cr/t profit a-b-a, two jumps, both stations <100 ls from entry, one end is a surface station.

i think you are looking either into the wrong commodities, or into the wrong states.

or you are using 3rd party apps, which nearby never find the best routes.

here is a list i made for myself in 2.2.

insulating membrane and cmm composite are missing, which are also high profit commodities.

especially medical diagnostic equipment or advanced or basic medicines are nearby always part of the best paying routes, if you don't include surface economies. gallium and beryllium are very often overlooked as well as military grade fabrics and personal weapons.

note, that the market/station controlling faction need to be in the right state, not the system controlling faction, and that states of other factions in the system can influence supply and price, too!

 

[Hooplah]

The profits per ton can be a tinsy-wincy bit higher at outposts but all-in a Cutter with 640 tons of cargo space can reliably make you 2milo plus per two jumps. Which is a half decent Mission reward, I do it for nostalgia reasons these days after breaking myself making trade Elite a year ago.

True as my 704 cargo Cutter can always make 2-2.5M credits per 2 jumps especially with engineered FAS. I'm also trade Elite so the credits are more about feeding a hungry Corvette and increasing Imp/Fed/All ratings. The real value is that I love the relative peacefulness of trading.

 

[Hooplah]

it's not long gone...i think you are looking either into the wrong commodities, or into the wrong states...or you are using 3rd party apps, which nearby never find the best routes...

I think you have got me! While I understand the states/commodities I used several 3rd party apps to get started. Some of my best was medical diagnostic equipment and basic medicines which I found using 3rd party apps looking for high/low stations to start. Next using the game galaxy map to work the economy/population/states. Still I didn't make a history/list of trades as you did to refine the process. Thus 4000c/t is pretty much the basic limit on 3rd party apps if they are even accurate.

So 5112c/t works out to 3.6M credits with 6000c/t if still possible hits 4.2M credits. Less than the 5 million I suggested but certainly acceptable. Still I just did a 1 jump 4.7M total cargo run with a more than half empty Python. Filling it up could easily hit 6M. 5112c/t isn't even close.

Regards

 

[goemon]

I think you have got me! While I understand the states/commodities I used several 3rd party apps to get started. Some of my best was medical diagnostic equipment and basic medicines which I found using 3rd party apps looking for high/low stations to start. Next using the game galaxy map to work the economy/population/states. Still I didn't make a history/list of trades as you did to refine the process. Thus 4000c/t is pretty much the basic limit on 3rd party apps if they are even accurate.

So 5112c/t works out to 3.6M credits with 6000c/t if still possible hits 4.2M credits. Less than the 5 million I suggested but certainly acceptable. Still I just did a 1 jump 4.7M total cargo run with a more than half empty Python. Filling it up could easily hit 6M. 5112c/t isn't even close.

Regards

that's totally true!

i'm sometimes looking at boom trading missions in a python up to 8 mio per mission, when an allied faction is an boom, from surface to outpost, 1 jump.

the new mission generating system has made missions a bit more reliable.

still i rarely see missions to the same station, which means you have to return for more missions.

I'd group it like that:

1) you want to do a single trade run = take a python, do a mission from a boom system
2) you want to trade during lunchbreak, and an hour before dinner = take a cutter, go state depending trading. bulktrading will have less downtime and is more relieable.

obviously you'll up your profits in the cutter by accepting fetch-missions which you can supply from the other end of your route.

i personally think, that the payouts for trade missions are too high. they were fine, when you rarely got so well paying missions. but with always 20 missions send, and a faction in boom often having 8-12 of those mission slots with trade missions, it gets close to bulktrading. also, state depending trading will as well require you to travel according to states, as does boom mission trading.

the problem i see with upping the profits from bulktrading further is, that, compared to trade missions, it is very risk free, and it is hard to scale, because trade ships have that different cargo sizes, and because you can run a bulktrade route 4-5 times an hour. i seriously doubt that you can get 4-5 times an hour a >4 mio trade mission for your python... but I'll look into that closer next time a faction i back is in boom.

 

[Tryst]

If you are flooding the market too much, try splitting the cargo. Half of one commodity and half of the next most profitable. You won't make quite as much profit per run but at least you'll get far more runs than you would be taking a full load of the best priced commodity.

If you sell a max load, the station isn't going to need any more for a while so the price drops by a significant margin and you'll get only about 2 runs at max load of each commodity. If you sell half a load, the station will use some between the time you leave and the time you come back plus they're not overly stocked so you'll get the equivalent of 3 max load runs of each commodity before the price drops too much. Same goes in reverse for buying, if you buy too many at a time, the price will go up significantly. So you get 6 (3 full loads of each) runs with a decent profit instead of 4 (2 full loads of each). This method gives you a better profit margin overall than saturating the market with full loads.

This is the problem with the Annie and Cutter, massive cargo holds means saturating the market too quickly. A good trader will split the cargo into two commodities or even three if the profit is good for all three so they don't saturate the market for one commodity and kill their own profit margins.

 

[goemon]

just coming back to this, because i have to correct myself.

a faction i back and where i know the neighbourhood very well is in boom.

running boom trade missions in a python beats any profit i can generate in my cutter. that's without mode swapping, and without waiting time. it's also consistent over two ticks of the BGS now.

i basically go to the mission board, pick up a mission or two, do a 1 jump, deliver the missions, and return.

that problem is even more severe, as the large pad stations here don't generate maximum profit, so i'm currently looking at 1700 cr/t a-b-a for my cutter .... something like 1,2 mio per run.

if trade missions are not reduced in payout (and who wants that?), the only work around would be to add well paying trade missions of more than -> 250 T of cargo to large pad stations.

 

[Hooplah]

...the problem i see with upping the profits from bulktrading further is, that, compared to trade missions, it is very risk free, and it is hard to scale, because trade ships have that different cargo sizes, and because you can run a bulktrade route 4-5 times an hour. i seriously doubt that you can get 4-5 times an hour a >4 mio trade mission for your python... but I'll look into that closer next time a faction i back is in boom.

Good point on the risk free especially in a fast Cutter. Still with engineering the Python is also now pretty much risk free as well. One will also be busier in a Python with more stops but each jump can easily make at least 1M + credits versus a 2 jump high paying run in the Cutter but returning back with very low paying or even an empty cargo hold.

...running boom trade missions in a python beats any profit i can generate in my cutter...if trade missions are not reduced in payout (and who wants that?), the only work around would be to add well paying trade missions of more than -> 250 T of cargo to large pad stations.

You've got it absolutely right! Flying a Cutter with the best bulk trading route or cargo mission cannot compete with the profits a Python makes in a Boom state as well as many others. Thus the lonely Cutter gets stored while the Python makes the credits to feed it as well as that combat whatever one just bought.

The easiest solution is to simply add some cargo missions that spawn often for ships requiring large landing pads. Have them transport say 300 tons (some smaller ships can hit 250) of cargo minimum with payouts no higher than the Pythons. Then only the large cargo ships can accept them and even then they cannot stack very many. That would keep the profits in balance as the Python would still make more credits but the Cutter or the Type-9 wouldn't be so far behind! Then us large ship Traders who played hundreds of long hours to obtain the best trading ships in the game could smile again flying our favorite ship without feeling left behind in trading. Life is good!