FD's huge mistake in taking consequences out of the game in favour of a do what you want when you want mentality

FD's huge mistake in taking consequences out of the game in favour of a do what you want when you want mentality

EDIT: This post is not specifically about C&P, piracy is used as an example to highlight the problem as I see it with lack of consequence in all career paths. This is not about pve or pvp either, as both styles of play would be enhanced just as much as each other, if implemented correctly.

In addition to this, it is by no means a one way thing. Becoming a pirate doesn't stop you from becoming a bounty hunter, after learning the error of your ways.... it just means you have to work hard to re establish the galaxies trust in you. What it does do however, is give your character/Pilot/whatever their own story, which is what FD stated at the very beginning with "blazing your own trail". So becoming a pirate doesn't mean you always have to be a pirate, it just that when you are, you are really going to feel like one, as with any other career choice.


I think one of the biggest problems with Elite Dangerous is that Frontier Developments has made a huge mistake by taking any meaningful consequences out of the game in favour of being do whatever they want, whenever they want during the game, but the problem is, this kind of attitude takes more away from the game than it adds.

For instance, piracy is a huge part of the game and it helps to create danger within the universe and makes it more exciting for everyone else. With the current game mechanics this is however a farfetched dream, because the current game mechanics only give you a small bounty for your criminal activities when really the consequences if done correctly would add more depth to the game by making it feel like you are a pirate, a smuggler or even an assassin. By having a piracy ranking that goes up as you commit more and more crime the harder it becomes to harder to dock at faction stations. For instance, if you are committing crime in Federal space it won’t be long before you are prevented from docking at any space station in any system belonging to the federation because you are a criminal scum bag. In actual fact, in high Security Systems you will be lucky if you managed to get to the station to even begin to think about requesting docking.

This would mean making more advantage of pirate bases that are dotted throughout the galaxy, and some of these may also be hidden deep in remote asteroid belts where they can take safe refuge from bounty hunters and police forces. It may even be the case that the murderers who have been banned from docking at any faction station apart from maybe a few independent systems can only dock and these are hidden pirate bases. That the bonus is that it would make great use of the new asteroid stations and actually give them a viable purpose in game.

These bases can also have unique missions and career paths that enable the pirate to rank up and gain access to top secret bases and engineers that can create unique equipment that only pirates can use in order to achieve the criminal activities. Of course, there is a downside to having pirate bases, for example, not having access to the best ships, the best equipment even A rated upgrades seeing as everything has to be brought off the black market and as such is very expensive and rare as well, seeing as the high ranking pirates have no access to high tech stations in any of the major factions area row of influence.

Being a pirate would also mean not having access to any of the best trade routes seeing as you can’t dock at any of the major faction’s stations. You may have access to some independent systems but that would be about it but they will most definitely not have access to the most profitable trade routes at all.

This alone will create so much game play for the players it will be amazing, but the problem is frontier developments has completely closed off any kind of meaningful game play by having the philosophy of any player being able to do what they want when they want. Instead what we get for piracy is some limpets and that’s about it, there is no interaction with the NPC’s and as a reward for a criminal activity all we get is a 9000 credit bounty planted on our heads as token gesture that we are bad boys and to make us feel like pirates.

This then has a massive impact on those who wish to play as bounty hunters, because with properly developed pirates you can properly developed bounty hunters and as a rank they get access to their own engineers who can create unique items that enable them to hunt and track pirates. For instance tracker limpets which can latch on to pirate ships so the bounty hunters can get some help to find out where the pirate’s base of operations are.

So please frontier developments change the philosophy of the way that you are making this game because right now you are making it very shallow very dull and there anything but the elite universe which is described in your rich lore that you have created.

And it is not piracy or bounty hunting which is a problem, it is all career paths that to the problem. Mining, trading, military careers, exploring, the whole lot is devoid of any meaningful depth. I mean can you imagine, proper developed faction paths, where you can rank up with the federation with a properly developed career paths, which could expand in to privateering, navy, spy's and double agents, the only way to partially rank up with two factions. But this can't happen with FD's current philosophy of lack of consequences in favour of a shallow do what you want when you want mentality.

EDIT: Can a mod change the title to "FD's huge mistake in taking consequences out of the game in favour of a do what you want when you want mentality" please.

**** Thank you kind mods ****
 
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You can't take out what was never in.

But yeah - murder-hobos (and to a lesser extent, pirates) shouldn't be able to dock at high-sec stations and/or ditch their wanted status so fast. And honestly, they'd probably have more fun if it was a set up so they were sneaking through back-channels and pirate bases.
Having said that - I'd let them TRY to dock at 'normal' stations, with the likelyhood of that working being random based of the system security state. In low and medium security systems, they should be able to try smuggling things in/out.
 
In before the thread goes to 57 pages on hijacked griefer suggestions and PVP v PVE... Also, your suggestions make sense so it won't be implemented...
 
Everything you say is 100% correct.

The problem is that Frontier only allows 1 cmdr per account. Does that mean I have to buy the game twice if I want to be a pirate and a merchant?
 
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Everything you say is 100% correct.

The problem is that Frontier only allows 1 cmdr per account. Does that mean I have to buy the game twice if I want to be a pirate and a merchant?

Be a merchant in one system but a pirate in another? Corsairs were historically "state sponsored pirates" that attacked opposing nation's ships. That would be very good gameplay if it could somehow be implemented beyond the one-time piracy missions we currently have.

Anyway, back on topic - lack of a good Crime and Punishment system has been bandied about so often around here that it's pretty much become a cliche.
 
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Since we have seen this topic several times before, I can predict that some Pirates will come in and complain that you can't restrict their lawful gameplay without offering bonuses of some sort for being a pirate.

That being said, I like the idea of having rewards and perks for pursuing specific jobs, though, again, as we have one commander per account, you can't really implement a limited skill set system as it would permanently block off content.
 
Since we have seen this topic several times before, I can predict that some Pirates will come in and complain that you can't restrict their lawful gameplay without offering bonuses of some sort for being a pirate.

Easy... black markets are still open in lawful space, with premiums for illegal (but not stolen) goods. After all, drugs will always be popular.
Conversely, pirate bases have low prices for contraband, but will pay market prices for non-illegal stolen goods. Slightly higher prices then most places in 'legal' space, and with no black-market 'tax' (after all, their entire market is a black market).

What would stop traders just loading up on legal goods and haulling them out to pirate bases? Ideally because those bases would be crawling with pirates... pirates (PC and NPC) that should be swarming any normal trader (but again, trying to sneak cargo in past the hordes of pirates would be a valid tactic). That would ALSO address the concerns of pirates who worry that traders would stick to 'safe' areas - the lure of a profit will tempt some to try running out to pirate space... all the better to PC pirates looking for prey.
 
You can't take out what was never in.

But yeah - murder-hobos (and to a lesser extent, pirates) shouldn't be able to dock at high-sec stations and/or ditch their wanted status so fast. And honestly, they'd probably have more fun if it was a set up so they were sneaking through back-channels and pirate bases.
Having said that - I'd let them TRY to dock at 'normal' stations, with the likelyhood of that working being random based of the system security state. In low and medium security systems, they should be able to try smuggling things in/out.

Low, med, high.

Low security has slow scans with lazy patrols Easy to dock.

Medium security has the level of scans our current game has - there is a "Scan sweep" every 15 minutes of the interior, if you are logged out or still on the station when that happens, your ship is docked the bounty amount in repair damage.

High security. Auto-scan through the mailslot - very active patrol with fast scans. Essentially Persona non grata to someone with a bounty. To rectify the situation you need to go to a lower sec system.

"Heat" level based on real world time. You can seal club, but as you do your heat level rises and only lowers as time goes on, not from any in-game actions. Think "star system" from GTA. Remember how if you stacked 20 smuggling missions - every jump had 3-4 NPC pirates on your tail? Sort of like that. The cool thing about this is that it doesn't depend on "ship persistence" or any re-working of the logout system. If you are at seal-clubbing "5 stars" you have a wing of FDLs with a Cutter anchor compliment, all with the best tier 5 engineering meta equipped and the "old AI". You want to be billy bad-? Ok, Have at it.

The above is just spitballing, but if I wanted to go "5star" I feel that would be fair. (and possibly fun).
 
Piracy needs an epic amount of attention. I tend to go in to bat for explorers, but freely admit that piracy is probably the one thing that needs even more attention that exploration.

Z...
 
What the OP talks about is what we wanted the game to be from day 1, but during the development there was a vocal minority who shouted very loud and Frontier listened to them instead of making the game how they said they'd make the game (go and look up the DDF - Design Discussion Forum archives). The Elite Dangerous we currently have is a pale shadow to the Elite Dangerous it should have been, but don't blame Frontier, blame the group who shouted the loudest and (in my opinion) ruined the game.

There is hope, we asked over and over for ship naming, and it's finally coming. Now we need to ask over and over for better crime and punishment.
 
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I don't actually agree that the game is ruined as things stand, because there is an undeniable complexity to the (more important) balance between careers. So I don't blame Frontier for having a light touch on that, even if on the face of it we're starting from a more forgiving start point. Some might say you can't make it more punishing from here but I think you can (just declare a war between the major factions and lore-wise you have the perfect excuse to harden legal systems).

This is not to say that I don't think ruination of the game by dumb dumb isn't a constant threat (though inside that, I personally reject the idea that a 'focus on combat' even exists, when developing the underlying architecture of game means you have to introduce mechanics with ref to logic, on the code framework, independent of 'the direction' or underlying ethos of the game). However the game is also being developed in a very different environment to that wich existed when Elite, FE2, even FFE, were built. The 'rage quit' is a threat, that you and I might not agree with, but commercially Frontier would be irresponsible not to bear in mind.

I'm not so pessimistic therefore and I want the game tough, clever, and thoughtful. That is as well as 'accessible' though, which is foolish to dismiss imo if ED's 10 year model is going to be viable. If games are dumb then giving people an over-complex game just means they go elsewhere. Weaning people onto solid food is not so daft imo.
 
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Everything you say is 100% correct.

The problem is that Frontier only allows 1 cmdr per account. Does that mean I have to buy the game twice if I want to be a pirate and a merchant?

If they did a proper crime and punishment system with JURISDICTIONS that would not be a problem.

- Major faction powers would be divided so a pirate in one is a merchant in another
- One could be a pirate in an independent system but free to go anywhere else

So one could be both and would have to make a choice, which is a good thing. ALL our actions should be a choice from missions, reputation, ship fitting and legality.
 
+Rep to the OP, its good to dream, who knows one day somwhere över the rainbow ED might just get there.

What, a breathing living universe with sensible laws, law enforcement and an actual crime culture that makes sense?

I'm still wondering how they will handle piracy.

- Hatch breaker limpets ignore shields so Archon Delaine's prized crap laser is now useless
- You CANNOT trap a target after interdiction due to either BOOST speed OR high waking
- Money VS Time means that making money as a pirate is crap
- Black markets are available to everyone and not merely criminals (Why the hell is an illegal market even VISIBLE in a station menu)
- Having a large bounty makes no difference and gives us no clout with criminal factions

etc...
 

Achilles7

Banned
I would prefer real consequences in all aspects of the game - kill commanders you are wanted for a significant period, not one week..& getting killed doesn't change that in that the duration is fixed, which ofc would eliminate the Sidey suicide exploit. Another example is powerplay aligning yourself on one side should prohibit you from travelling in other superpower's space, buying their ships & getting their special modules - again for another long duration. Going into anarchy system should be treacherous...fighting Elite AI should be something you should have to consider carefully!

The only area I have some sympathy with is the death & rebuy scenario - it would be a step too far having 'iron man' in the game, I think! But rebuy should be more expensive..if you die, you absolutely regret it. Maybe you should lose 95% of your credits on death. This would at least allow you to keep your ranks, ships & engineer unlocks etc This would also mean bounties on players could get very large & create a profitable PvP bounty hunting mechanic, without the exploit of friends killing wanted friends since those wanted cmdrs would lose virtually everything.

Frontier's whole liberal 'everyone should win a prize' mechanics are just ! They don't even have the *cough* spheres to stick to their guns when they do make a decision; I was reading the whole '2.1 AI' debate from the end of May last year, earlier this morning - the whining & crying was so premature given that no-one had engineered their ships at that point, the AI was calibrated for the improvement in our ships over time & Frontier still caved in; it is so depressing that the decision makers in this game are spineless in response to equally limp, challenge-averse players...what is the point of a game if it isn't hard & makes you try to improve your skills, but no, we have a player base that want to swan around in God-mode, harvesting credits buying ships locked to all of the superpowers - it still irks me whenever I see a Cutter pledged to Hudson in the game.

I would urge anyone to search out that thread (I would search but arghh it's 9am - gotta earn ma corn! I think it was dated 27/05 & had a poll) & see the response to the harder AI..people were loving it & those that found it hard should have to engineer/adapt -one stripey jumper wearing chimp was in my view largely responsible for panicking FD into capitulation because he was new..yeah let's balance the difficulty around someone who probably can't fly his ship in a straight line!! :rolleyes: - I posted in that thread & was absolutely fawning all over FD for great work in making the galaxy a dangerous place, as it should be...& now look where the AI are. PATHETIC!
 
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