Vulkan support?

[John Rhys]

In light of the recent announcements from Microsoft and others, i'd like to know which direction Elite (or Frontier) is going to take. Especially with Microsoft dropping support for everything they don't want (Been using Win 8.1 but with updating to Ryzen it probably won't be feasible anymore) and locking the Windows-PC pretty much in like Consoles.

Since Elite is running on DX11 and some Studios (Valve, Croteam, Cloud Imperium, id Software and others) announced, they will drop DX11 support in the coming years to follow up with Vulkan (especially, since the programming is pretty much the same for DX12, the only difference is the rendering pipeline - AFAIK) - has there been anything from Frontier, that hints some direction?
Because i have to admit, if it is going to go in the DX12 direction, i'm done with Elite. I've switched to Linux pretty much exclusively, since most of the Games i play either run pretty good with Wine, or Vulkan/OpenGL 4.5 and i will never, ever switch to Windows 10. I've got it on a spare SSD, but i refuse to use it as anything else than an isolated test platform, and i'm not going to make an exception for Elite. Also, with Apple switching to Metal, it probably would be a lot easier to just switch to Vulkan, because - also AFAIK - Metal and Vulkan are not so different in terms of programming.

So, biggest question for me is: Will I be able to play Elite in the Future?

 

[BACKER #-4112]

... So, biggest question for me is: Will I be able to play Elite in the Future?

I am willing to bet my reproductive organs that you will be able to play E: D in the future.

Sorry if I ended your thread.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Win8.1 will work just fine with Ryzen; it's not about MS barring those chips from running on their OS. Rather, they aren't going to support the OS with patches for future chips with future features.

 

[mastershotgun]

well this is mire of a Linux questions... and I must gree. ED on linux i would like to see. I have one of my machines running Win10 because at the moment there are 3 software products that I'm using which will not run on Linux, and ED is one of them... Star Citizen is other one of the 3, but they already announced support for Vulkan and Linux eventually

 

[signal11th]

It's logical.

 

[John Rhys]

I am willing to bet my reproductive organs that you will be able to play E: D in the future.

Sorry if I ended your thread.

Do you? I won't use an OS i can't even get security updates for, so Win 8.1 is out of the question. Also, if Frontier drops DX11 this leaves either DX12 or Vulkan. DX12 would force everyone to Win 10 (or 11...or whatever, Braben said he has a 10 Year plan for Elite, so I'm actually planning for around 7 Years, considering Elite is out for 3 now).

Win8.1 will work just fine with Ryzen; it's not about MS barring those chips from running on their OS. Rather, they aren't going to support the OS with patches for future chips with future features.

Of course it works, that isn't the problem. The problem is that you won't get any updates (which - until now - also counts for security fixes) for Win 8.1 even though it has still Mainline Support until end of next Year (which buggs me the most, because i actually bought Win 8.1). It isn't clear if you can use those Update Packs, but i am still a bit hopefull. Still - Security Updates for 8.1 are due till 2021, so i have actually planned for that.

It's also not just Ryzen, it's Kaby Lake, Coffee Lake and so on from Intel too.

 

[Jon flint]

Dx12, maybe. Vulkan, doubtful.

If elite was already running with opengl i could see vulkan as a viable possibility, but it doesn't seem likely they'd switch to an entirely new API. More likley, if there was going to be any change, it'd be dx12 support.

*Edit*
Although, that being said, what's the ps4 version running on?? Seems unlikely that'd be a directX version so who knows...

 

[the100thmonkey]

Do you? I won't use an OS i can't even get security updates for, so Win 8.1 is out of the question. Also, if Frontier drops DX11 this leaves either DX12 or Vulkan. DX12 would force everyone to Win 10 (or 11...or whatever, Braben said he has a 10 Year plan for Elite, so I'm actually planning for around 7 Years, considering Elite is out for 3 now).



Of course it works, that isn't the problem. The problem is that you won't get any updates (which - until now - also counts for security fixes) for Win 8.1 even though it has still Mainline Support until end of next Year (which buggs me the most, because i actually bought Win 8.1). It isn't clear if you can use those Update Packs, but i am still a bit hopefull. Still - Security Updates for 8.1 are due till 2021, so i have actually planned for that.

It's also not just Ryzen, it's Kaby Lake, Coffee Lake and so on from Intel too.

Exactly. As far as I am aware, there are no features of Ryzen, or Kaby Lake, or Coffee Lake that aren't supported by Win8 or newer. It's an instruction set issue. Basically, MS have said that they're not going to patch their legacy OSes with new features supported by new chips. It's basically irrelevant for the next few years (certainly within the useful gaming lifetime of a CPU) as I don't see any massive propsed changes to the x86_64 instruction set that would render a current CPU inoperable. Since the "features" of Win10 that you dislike have also been backported to Win8, you're spitting in the wind, basically. I hope you have Windows Update turned to sane settings.

Dx12, maybe. Vulkan, doubtful.

If elite was already running with opengl i could see vulkan as a viable possibility, but it doesn't seem likely they'd switch to an entirely new API. More likley, if there was going to be any change, it'd be dx12 support.

*Edit*
Although, that being said, what's the ps4 version running on?? Seems unlikely that'd be a directX version so who knows...

The PS4 version will, at the moment, be running on Sony's proprietary graphics library. Given the similarities of the base OS to other UNIXes, I'd wager that it bears a strong resemblance to OpenGL.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Dx12, maybe. Vulkan, doubtful.

If elite was already running with opengl i could see vulkan as a viable possibility

Both very different different from DX11, and vk is not just an easy drop-in update you can do on top of OpenGL. You would start by implementing your own OpenGL or DX, and then port your game to that

Microsoft will also not be dropping support for DX <12, they are not that stupid with really "almost all" games using DX9 (that said, I can see them phasing that out eventually because it must be a pain to maintain for MS and hardware vendors). Pushing people towards Windows 10 is an entirely different kettle of fish, and in some ways (security) a good thing, Windows 7 in consumer hands is rapidly becoming the next XP situation and is already missing some security fixes, and Windows 8 only has one more year before it too goes that route. Another thing the OP is probably confusing are Metal and Mantle.

- - - Updated - - -

It's basically irrelevant for the next few years (certainly within the useful gaming lifetime of a CPU)

It's not quite irrelevant with Microsoft announcing that they won't be providing Windows updates for systems running 7 or 8.1 on those new CPUs; so if you are running such a configuration, get it the hell off the Internet.

 

[Garix]

Both very different different from DX11, and vk is not just an easy drop-in update you can do on top of OpenGL. You would start by implementing your own OpenGL or DX, and then port your game to that

Microsoft will also not be dropping support for DX <12, they are not that stupid with really "almost all" games using DX9 (that said, I can see them phasing that out eventually because it must be a pain to maintain for MS and hardware vendors). Pushing people towards Windows 10 is an entirely different kettle of fish, and in some ways (security) a good thing, Windows 7 in consumer hands is rapidly becoming the next XP situation and is already missing some security fixes, and Windows 8 only has one more year before it too goes that route. Another thing the OP is probably confusing are Metal and Mantle.

- - - Updated - - -


It's not quite irrelevant with Microsoft announcing that they won't be providing Windows updates for systems running 7 or 8.1 on those new CPUs; so if you are running such a configuration, get it the hell off the Internet.

Win 7 EOL is Jan 2020 Win 8.1 is Jan 2023, so security updates will be provided until then.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

 

[Shadowdancer]

Win 7 EOL is Jan 2020 Win 8.1 is Jan 2023, so security updates will be provided until then.

Those are extended support periods, mostly intended to give corporate customers time to sleep their way into rolling out proper updates. There will issues in that time for which MS will provide workarounds in the form of recommended configurations, firewalling stuff, creative hotfixes you have to look for, and all that jazz. Those all count as "security updates".

 

[GG7]

Win8.1 will work just fine with Ryzen; it's not about MS barring those chips from running on their OS. Rather, they aren't going to support the OS with patches for future chips with future features.

Which in my opinion is a major BONUS! (Not having to deal with the infernal Windows Update system!

I am on Windows 10 build 1511 which works perfectly fine, but the Anniversary update crashes on install every single time it tries to update. MS tech support was totally stumped as to what the problem is since my system files and everything are totally in proper order.

I finally went in to the backend and disabled Windows Update, so it would stop trying to download the POS Anniversary install and waste my time every couple of days. We shall see if the upcoming Windows 10 "Creators" update will actually install itself properly, or crash in the middle of the process like the Anniversary install has done on my machine since that update was released last year! Not holding my breath.

Windows Sucks regardless of what version you use. Its a cobbled together mess and I dare anyone to dispute that when comparing it to Linux or OSX. At least I see nothing to change my opinion on that from decades of personal experience.

I would LOVE to see Vulkan support in ED! As long as I can use my 1080ti with it.

 

[Darth Ender]

If you aren't allowed to run vulkan in xbox, then i could forsee frontier porting to dx12 in the future since microsoft os's make up a vast majority of purchases for elite.

It would be great if they moved to vulkan. It opens up cross platform, should theoretically decrease the overhead of supporting multiple rendering engines. Is open source so you wont be tied to the commercial whims of a single company for support.

I'm not holding my breath though. I'd much rather they fix the live-lock race that _still_ occurs when you bounce through the station menus faster than their extremely latency-prone network responses and updating of text fields/avatars. A stable foundation > anything else. The little bugs and lack of polish and half baked-ness of the fundamentals deserves more attention than this at this time.

 

[John Rhys]

Both very different different from DX11, and vk is not just an easy drop-in update you can do on top of OpenGL. You would start by implementing your own OpenGL or DX, and then port your game to that

Microsoft will also not be dropping support for DX <12, they are not that stupid with really "almost all" games using DX9 (that said, I can see them phasing that out eventually because it must be a pain to maintain for MS and hardware vendors). Pushing people towards Windows 10 is an entirely different kettle of fish, and in some ways (security) a good thing, Windows 7 in consumer hands is rapidly becoming the next XP situation and is already missing some security fixes, and Windows 8 only has one more year before it too goes that route. Another thing the OP is probably confusing are Metal and Mantle.

- - - Updated - - -


It's not quite irrelevant with Microsoft announcing that they won't be providing Windows updates for systems running 7 or 8.1 on those new CPUs; so if you are running such a configuration, get it the hell off the Internet.

Actually, DX12 and Vulkan are not that different. Compared to DX and OpenGL, the differences are apparently very small.
And i wasn't talking about Microsoft dropping support, but the companys. There are a lot of newer Game Engines, that have dropped DX9 and 10 support completely, the next Unity engine will apparently only support DX12 and Vulkan. Another reason FOR Vulkan would be better VR-Support, since you can actually use two different GPUs for one eye and sync them very well (this is already done for example with "Watchout"). And i'm not confusing Metal and Mantle, i know what they are. Vulkan has been developed from AMDs Mantle, actually, AMD donated Mantle to the Khronos Group.

Another reason for this to be very upset is, that the P2P Connections that Elite uses are not really encrypted. So without security updates there is a chance, that this can be hijacked.

If you aren't allowed to run vulkan in xbox, then i could forsee frontier porting to dx12 in the future since microsoft os's make up a vast majority of purchases for elite.

It would be great if they moved to vulkan. It opens up cross platform, should theoretically decrease the overhead of supporting multiple rendering engines. Is open source so you wont be tied to the commercial whims of a single company for support.

I'm not holding my breath though. I'd much rather they fix the live-lock race that _still_ occurs when you bounce through the station menus faster than their extremely latency-prone network responses and updating of text fields/avatars. A stable foundation > anything else. The little bugs and lack of polish and half baked-ness of the fundamentals deserves more attention than this at this time.

That is the thing, the net code has to be synced with the graphicsoutput (at least kind of) with a P2P Connection. Reducing the overhead will give code, that is even slow on extremely powerful PCs, a performance boost. Just compare the Doom DX vs Vulkan Benchmarks, the difference can be huge. There is also no multiple redneringe engines: There is just one for pretty much every plattform.

And actually, the PS4 DOES support Vulkan. It's not fully implemented yet, but since the PS4 runs FreeBSD 9.0 it isn't that difficult. It just doesn't run OpenGL, so that why a Linux port from the PS4 is not likely...unfortunately.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Being one of those people who simple do not care about AMD, I had no idea what Vulkan even was.
Now I do, and I still don't care what AMD does.
Ryzen still doesn't out-perform my i7 4970K Devil's Canyon.

AMD has never been particularly impressive to me, outside of some of their mobile device chips.

Sure, they cost less than Intel chips, but you get what you pay for.

Likewise, Linux, while it has come a long way, still remains the operating system of those who just don't want to spend money. And like processors, you get what you pay for.

I do run Windows 10, and I rather like it.

I own an iPhone and I like it too.

But I'd never buy another Apple PC. I own a Macintosh, the serial number is 0000000012
That's how long it's been since Apple has impressed me. Since Motorolo dumped Apple and Intel took over making their processors and motherboards, Apple PC's are just PC's with a different looking OS.
At least the Motorolo processors were RISC processors and did something differently.

To each their own, though.

 

[NCFCpaul]

So... I turn my windows computer on and click the launcher for Elite. I play the game, it's great and I love it. My computer does do updates and I let it get on with it and have my security software also up-to-date.
For the rather more computer literate out there, can I just keep my normal computer and play the game? Will I be able to do so for the reasonably foreseeable future?
Otherwise, really simply, if you don't like Windows can't you just play the game on a Mac or something?

 

[John Rhys]

Being one of those people who simple do not care about AMD, I had no idea what Vulkan even was.
Now I do, and I still don't care what AMD does.
Ryzen still doesn't out-perform my i7 4970K Devil's Canyon.

AMD has never been particularly impressive to me, outside of some of their mobile device chips.

Sure, they cost less than Intel chips, but you get what you pay for.

Likewise, Linux, while it has come a long way, still remains the operating system of those who just don't want to spend money. And like processors, you get what you pay for.

I do run Windows 10, and I rather like it.

I own an iPhone and I like it too.

But I'd never buy another Apple PC. I own a Macintosh, the serial number is 0000000012
That's how long it's been since Apple has impressed me. Since Motorolo dumped Apple and Intel took over making their processors and motherboards, Apple PC's are just PC's with a different looking OS.
At least the Motorolo processors were RISC processors and did something differently.

To each their own, though.

Spoiler

In this case "To each their own" is one of the most ignorant position you can take, since Vulkan would benefit pretty much everyone (and isn't even made by AMD...!). Apple PCs are also not just PCs with a different looking OS, the EFI structure and the Hardware structure is also different. Also, with all you've written, i get the impression you actually have no idea about computers and what you are talking about - especially since even the Original Macintosh Serial Number didn't have digits as last two characters. Motorola didn't dump Apple, Ryzen does outperform your 4970K in pretty much everything (even Gaming) - but this isn't the point of this thread. Please, don't shove your ignorant (and factually wrong) believes in the faces of those, who think a bit further, than tomorrow.

Linux is also not the operating system of those who do not want to spend money, you can sink gold bars in to linux if you want. A Red Hat Linux Workstation licence will set you back $299. You get 24h full on support, a System that works out of the box like Windows with pretty much everything on top. If you don't want to lay a finger on your system and want to be pampered like Windows 10 does - please do and give Microsoft everything, including all Keystrokes you do (the Funny thing is, you can't turn off those things in the newest Update any more - it's hard coded in to the System and will force it to shut down. But hey, it's for all our benefits, if Microsoft can make Windows even better, is it?)

Wearing blinders is pretty common in today's world, i actually and genuinely hate people, that go through live with that kind of attitude, because it doesn't even benefit themselves in the long run. And it actually makes me angry. I was thinking about putting you on my ignore list, just for the sake of my sanity, but that isn't very mature.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you and nothing you wrote made any sense.

So... I turn my windows computer on and click the launcher for Elite. I play the game, it's great and I love it. My computer does do updates and I let it get on with it and have my security software also up-to-date.
For the rather more computer literate out there, can I just keep my normal computer and play the game? Will I be able to do so for the reasonably foreseeable future?
Otherwise, really simply, if you don't like Windows can't you just play the game on a Mac or something?

Why shouldn't you? Vulkan runs totally fine on Windows, it has even more performance than DX12. And no - the point isn't "just playing the game on a May". The Point is future proofing, since Elite has a timeline for ~ 10 Years (at least, that's what Braben keeps saying...). So nothing would really change for you, except you get a smoother game.