General / Off-Topic Are we brexiting?

[FuzzySpider]

And this is why we will always disagree. Our right to vote is exactly that...our right. It is not a qualification one needs to pass like a drivers licence. This is so open to abuse, its unreal that you dont see it.

Why do you think I don't see it? It is indeed open to abuse. But so is everything else. The Tories are being investigated by the police at the moment for electoral abuse. George Osborne is a consultant for BlackRock being paid 650k per year, is the editor of the Evening Standard, and is also the MP for Tatton. If a journalist at the Evening Standard gets some information in the public interest on the Tories what will the paper do? That is happening right now.

There is a police force that can come, kick your door down, drag you off, and put you in a cage. There were over 300 deaths in police custody from 2002-2012. How many prosecutions of the police? Zero.

This is the Nirvana fallacy. Just because something ain't perfect it doesn't mean it isn't better than what exists now.

Who makes that decision to qualify people on whether they can vote or not?

The electoral commission. They set the rules on campaigning and voting already. There are already restrictions - you can't stand for election unless you pay a fee for example. There are also restrictions on how much money you can spend etc.

Our freedoms came at a cost in all the wars we fought with others who believed we were incapable of deciding our own fate. Im not making a comparison with you personally, but I know yer veiws and disagree with them. Voting is in an entirely different context than getting something fixed by someone who isnt qualified...voting is a right, getting something or someone fixed is a requirement. Thats the difference you fail utterly in seeing. Ye can hold yerself to whatever standard ye want but ye ddnt have the right to hold anyone else to that belief...nobody should ever have that right and thats why we will always disagree ^

I don't equate voting with freedom. Especially when voting can result in freedoms being taken away.

Brexit has resulted in the freedom of future UK citizens being restricted - they no longer have the right to access 27 other countries in Europe to work, live, love, retire etc. Your vote has removed that right. It has also resulted in the rights of others to come here and settle, to contribute to UK society, similarly being restricted.

Freedom is far more than the chance to put a little "X" next to a question every few years.

 

[FuzzySpider]

An interesting article just come through on LinkedIn, I thought you guys might want a read:

http://www.civitas.org.uk/publications/its-quite-ok-to-walk-away/

Look at the PDF on the page for download, I've only read the summary and will read the rest in a bit...

Here's a snippet from the summary:



I'd be interested in your thoughts on all this, especially those who are not being so positive about the UK post brexit

That is indeed positive for the economy of the UK. I have a counter question - is the economy the servant or the master of society?

The UK can thrive outside the EU much better than it can within the EU. That much is completely true. Eliminate all employee protections. Institute a compulsory 60 hour working week. Tear up environmental regulations. Completely remove welfare - if people don't work they can rely on the largess of others or starve. Eliminate retirement ages, work until you drop.

Have you ever heard of Foxconn? Do you buy Reebok? How does US$50 a month sound?

Outside of the protection of a free trade zone you are going to be competing directly with those markets, ergo your labour is going to be competing with Chinese labour. The cost of manufacturing something in the UK will have to be reduced drastically to merely keep what companies there are here.

The notion that everyone will trade freely, which is what the person in your link is basing his overall ideas on, doesn't bear any resemblance to the reality of the world at the moment.

Right now, UK consumer goods cross EU borders with no tariffs and without any customs checks which reduces costs. Furthermore, EU states have a vested interest in dealing with each other rather than going outside the EU for certain items, as keeping business in the single market brings an overall benefit and reduces capital outflow. Dealing with other EU countries massively reduces red tape and legal costs.

After article 50 the UK is merely another country. Even worse, it is a country that has no trade treaty with the EU, with China, with America or anywhere else.

 

[Sunleader]

The Main Problem is that this is essentially what People Voted for.

The Brexit Campaign most of all was about removing these Pesky EU Regulations on Everything.
"Take back Control"

Thing is. It is exactly these Pesky Regulations which say that an Employer is not Allowed to just Hire and Fire People on a Whim.
Its these Pesky Regulations which say that a minimum survival standard and insurance has to be maintained by the State to prevent people from starving to death on the street.
Its these Pesky Regulations which say that Workers have Rights to like getting Holidays and be Paid when they are Sick in Bed.

These Horrible Shackles the Brexit Campaign was talking about. The ones which the EU laid onto the UK are pretty much these Contracts closed between the Countries of the EU that all Countries in the EU are abiding by these Minimum Standards for Workers and Human Rights.


Of course. By Removing these the UK can effectively have an Quite good Economic Growth.
Much more than it could ever Gain inside the EU.

Albeit the UK is missing one really Fatal Advantage that these Countries got.
The other Countries are not close to Europe.
They have a good amount of Runaway Population which goes to the EU to get a better Life.
But Cultural Differences and the simple Fact that Distance is pretty Big. Keeps em somewhat Safe.

The UK however is direct Neighbor to the EU.
Meaning that if the Conditions in the UK Drop Drastically the People of the UK will Swarm to the EU.
Especially Skilled Personnel will flow out of the UK as it is easy for them to Immigrate to the EU which will Welcome them with Open Arms.

And there is another Big Disadvantage of the UK.
Unlike China, India, Brazil etc.
UK has no Gigantic Population to Draw From.
Their Industry even now already is actually understaffed and needs Foreign Workers to Function.

But at current Prizes and Laws the UK wont be Competetive against EU with Border Taxes.
And if it drops to Chinese etc levels so it can Compete. It will not Attract Immigration.

 

[Becks]

An interesting article just come through on LinkedIn, I thought you guys might want a read:

http://www.civitas.org.uk/publications/its-quite-ok-to-walk-away/

Look at the PDF on the page for download, I've only read the summary and will read the rest in a bit...

Here's a snippet from the summary:



I'd be interested in your thoughts on all this, especially those who are not being so positive about the UK post brexit

Which countries were that?

Remember that the EU has over eighty FTAs with third countries which it is also going to lose when it leaves.

Growth is a funny thing. Economists try to predict how the economy is going to behave in a 300+ pages report and people want it summed up in a single number.

Am on mobile right now and reading PDFs is a pain. ._.

 

[Sunleader]

Which countries were that?

Remember that the EU has over eighty FTAs with third countries which it is also going to lose when it leaves.

Growth is a funny thing. Economists try to predict how the economy is going to behave in a 300+ pages report and people want it summed up in a single number.

Am on mobile right now and reading PDFs is a pain. ._.

The PDF lists on top of that List.

China, India, Brazil, Japan, USA, etc

All of which are either Countries which are producing super cheap by allowing Workers to be treated however the Company sees fit.
Or Countries which are by far margin not working by the WTO Rules but have their own Free Trade Agreements in their Local Region.

 

[verminstar]

Why do you think I don't see it? It is indeed open to abuse. But so is everything else. The Tories are being investigated by the police at the moment for electoral abuse. George Osborne is a consultant for BlackRock being paid 650k per year, is the editor of the Evening Standard, and is also the MP for Tatton. If a journalist at the Evening Standard gets some information in the public interest on the Tories what will the paper do? That is happening right now.

There is a police force that can come, kick your door down, drag you off, and put you in a cage. There were over 300 deaths in police custody from 2002-2012. How many prosecutions of the police? Zero.

This is the Nirvana fallacy. Just because something ain't perfect it doesn't mean it isn't better than what exists now.



The electoral commission. They set the rules on campaigning and voting already. There are already restrictions - you can't stand for election unless you pay a fee for example. There are also restrictions on how much money you can spend etc.



I don't equate voting with freedom. Especially when voting can result in freedoms being taken away.

Brexit has resulted in the freedom of future UK citizens being restricted - they no longer have the right to access 27 other countries in Europe to work, live, love, retire etc. Your vote has removed that right. It has also resulted in the rights of others to come here and settle, to contribute to UK society, similarly being restricted.

Freedom is far more than the chance to put a little "X" next to a question every few years.

Osbourne is a remoaner is he not? Their problem not mine...he is an example of everything I voted against and I genuinely thank you fer bringing his name up. The man who tried to threaten us with the 'emergency budget'. David should have held the door open fer his partner in grime when he bolted after losing, but I suppose theres no honour amongst thieves these days. He does nothing more than prove many of us right and thats your problem not mine...Im perfectly happy letting him bumble his way through poitics, as it does the remoaner cause no favours.

The police used to practice internment fer real here...I still have the 2 inch scar on my jaw when I had my 'accidental' fall while being arrested and dragged outta my bed by my hair. When I say I have no respect fer the law, which part are ye having trouble in understanding? The police are nothing more than the sharp end of the stick the establishment use to beat us with, but ye speak to me like Im not already aware of that? Ive actually experienced it and more than once...have you?

The electoral commission set out te rukes fer which liar fer hire can stand, but they have no powers to restrict peoples right to vote...sorta a big difference between the two. Of course they gotta pay to be quaified to stand...money is the grease that keeps the wheels turning within the establishment because care fer little else.

Anyway, as ye dont equate voting with freedom, theres probably not much else to discuss. We disagree on a very fundamental level...I consider you an intellectual snob with yer opinions on the right to vote...yer another one the so called experts to be ignored and ye really dont do the remoaner side any favours with those views.

But whatever...

 

[FuzzySpider]

Osbourne is a remoaner is he not?

Utterly irrelevant.

Their problem not mine...he is an example of everything I voted against and I genuinely thank you fer bringing his name up.

You voted against corruption by voting to make Farage, Johnson, Gove, Murdoch, the Daily Mail etc more powerful? This is why we need voting licenses - so that people actually understand what it is they are voting for.

The man who tried to threaten us with the 'emergency budget'.

I suppose billions in QE, the pound hitting the floor, and the lowest interest rates since the time of Henry the 8th doesn't qualify as an "emergency"? You're right, it doesn't. Just do not complain when you can't afford food due to the levels of inflation you're going to soon suffer.

The police used to practice internment fer real here...I still have the 2 inch scar on my jaw when I had my 'accidental' fall while being arrested and dragged outta my bed by my hair. When I say I have no respect fer the law, which part are ye having trouble in understanding? The police are nothing more than the sharp end of the stick the establishment use to beat us with, but ye speak to me like Im not already aware of that? Ive actually experienced it and more than once...have you?

Are you saying internment is a good thing or a bad thing?

Also, if you have no respect for the law why are you complaining about not being able to vote? Voting is supposed to be about political participation, it is about the law. A vote is to endorse the law.

Again... more evidence democracy needs voting licenses so that only people who understand what they're doing are able to vote.

 

[Rob At Work]

There already is a test (pre-qualification) to vote.

1. You have to be 18 or over
2. You have to be on the Electoral Register

It would appear that because the vote didn't go the way some wanted it to, they are blaming the system (well anything they can really).

 

[verminstar]

Utterly irrelevant.



You voted against corruption by voting to make Farage, Johnson, Gove, Murdoch, the Daily Mail etc more powerful? This is why we need voting licenses - so that people actually understand what it is they are voting for.



I suppose billions in QE, the pound hitting the floor, and the lowest interest rates since the time of Henry the 8th doesn't qualify as an "emergency"? You're right, it doesn't. Just do not complain when you can't afford food due to the levels of inflation you're going to soon suffer.



Are you saying internment is a good thing or a bad thing?

Also, if you have no respect for the law why are you complaining about not being able to vote? Voting is supposed to be about political participation, it is about the law. A vote is to endorse the law.

Again... more evidence democracy needs voting licenses so that only people who understand what they're doing are able to vote.

Because the establishment despises our freedom, just as you clearly do. I have respect fer certain laws, but not those who enforce them...I hate politicians more than the peelers, but they really arent that far behind if truth be told. They are not trusted in this entire community because my case was just one example...there are many very similar examples here which should go some way to explain why some of us make our own laws and enforce them when the need arises.

Suppose I could debate this more but I cant get this block outta my mind about yer intellectual snobbery...I dont have the motivation to debate it any further because I find yer beliefs absolutely disgusting, and I really cant get my head around that at all. Part of me wants to just mute you and make you go away, but now and then ye say something I do agree with...not often just now and then.

So on that note...whatever m8...have a nice day and all that jazz ^

 

[Javert]

Emergency Budget:

- Since June 2017, our FX rate sank significantly causing the Treasury to need to take significant urgent measures.
- UK Chancellor is keeping an £11bn "war chest" to fend off the negative impact of the Brexit process whilst at the same time we are seeing NHS and social care services for the elderly close to collapse.
- At the same time, there are big cuts in in work benefits coming down the line (which were a flagship policy designed to make sure you were always better off when taking a job previously).
- Cuts to PIP and other allowances for the vulnerable.
- Schools budgets are being reduced in real terms.
- The government already surrendered their manifesto commitments on deficit reduction and openly stated that this is due to Brexit.
- UK Chancellor has tried to increase taxation (NI taxes ) already in the recent budget. Was forced to U-turn for Tory political reasons, but I'm sure further tax rises are coming down the line after next election.

The emergency budget that Osbourne mentioned is already happening and will continue to happen - it's just playing out over a much longer time because the government kicked the ball down the road on Brexit. The point was now "If you vote for brexit we will punish your naughtiness by having an emergency budget" it was "If Brexit goes ahead there is a high chance that the economy will go down, and therefore budget measures will have to be taken in order to plug the gap".

 

[Adept]

Osbourne is a remoaner is he not? ... as it does the remoaner cause no favours.

...

Could you stop it with the name calling please. It definitely does you no favours. Why do you try to evoke an annoyed response from people you are having a discussion with? Nothing good can come from such taunts, unless of course you only care about the opinions and thoughts of people who find it hilarious.

It immediately makes me want to just roll my eyes and skip the post entirely, as I'm not interested in seeing somebody acting childishly.

 

[verminstar]

Could you stop it with the name calling please. Ot definitely does you no favours. Why do you try to evoke an annoyed response from people you are hving a discussion with? Nothing good can come from such taunts, unless of course you only care about the opinions and thoughts of people who find it hilarious.

It immediately makes me want to just roll my eyes and skip the post entirely, as I'm not interested in seeing somebody acting childishly.

But its ok fer remoaners to call us names yes? Why dont ye correct all who do it and not just brexiteers? Ive seen a few get warnings to tone it down in the past, but it seems that only happens when it goes over the top and the complaints start flying.

If ye want parity, then practice it when yer buds go off on their little rants and correct their wording as fast as ye correct ours...otherwise its called hypocrisy ^

 

[beelbeebub]

But its ok fer remoaners to call us names yes? Why dont ye correct all who do it and not just brexiteers? Ive seen a few get warnings to tone it down in the past, but it seems that only happens when it goes over the top and the complaints start flying.

If ye want parity, then practice it when yer buds go off on their little rants and correct their wording as fast as ye correct ours...otherwise its called hypocrisy ^

Afaik the term on this thread for people who voted for or support brexit is "Brexiteer" or "Leaver".

Some have called some of those who voted Leave bigots, racists and ignorant but the mods have clamp we down on that.

"Renowned" is a particular insult from the Leave camp, although I don't care about it.

I would say that using the "remoaner" tag does put you in the same basket as those who say "all leavers are racist" (though it is undeniable that a strand of the Leave vote was based on racism and ignorance it is clearly not all).

 

[Rob At Work]

Afaik the term on this thread for people who voted for or support brexit is "Brexiteer" or "Leaver".

Some have called some of those who voted Leave bigots, racists and ignorant but the mods have clamp we down on that.

"Renowned" is a particular insult from the Leave camp, although I don't care about it.

I would say that using the "remoaner" tag does put you in the same basket as those who say "all leavers are racist" (though it is undeniable that a strand of the Leave vote was based on racism and ignorance it is clearly not all).

Look at the current ongoing discussion (only a few pages back) about voting licenses. see if those that voted "leave" were accused of lacking itellect? - is that not the same thing also?

 

[EdzUp]

Both sides have been trading insults for ages it's a bit late to come out as offended, however you look at it its happening so we are all going to have to get used to it.

 

[Rob At Work]

Both sides have been trading insults for ages it's a bit late to come out as offended, however you look at it its happening so we are all going to have to get used to it.

I agree - it's so childish! - but they did start it though.

 

[Zieman]

I agree - it's so childish! - but they did start it though.

No, they started it!

 

[FuzzySpider]

Look at the current ongoing discussion (only a few pages back) about voting licenses. see if those that voted "leave" were accused of lacking itellect? - is that not the same thing also?

Citation please.

 

[Javert]

Look at the current ongoing discussion (only a few pages back) about voting licenses. see if those that voted "leave" were accused of lacking itellect? - is that not the same thing also?

I don't think the accusation was about lacking intellect. (please provide the quote if I'm wrong).

It was more an of lacking the required knowledge, education, and skills to understand the complex implications of the decisions being made. That's not really an insult as knowledge and skills are something you can be trained in, and it's not your fault of an innate flaw if you don't have them. I think Fuzzy mentioned in previous messages that he himself didn't vote because he didn't feel qualified to do so on such a complex matter, so he is applying the same rule to himself.

Remoaner on the other hand is clearly designed to be a pejorative term, deliberately containing the word "moan" as part of it, implying that everyone who voted remain is complaining without any good reason.

Brexiteer on the other hand sounds like Musketeer, so if the people who wanted to remain in the EU were called Brexiteers, I would have no issue - the word isn't deliberately made up to sound insulting in itself.

We've been round this loop before and I don't agree with Fuzzy that we should introduce a test for voting, even though the idea has some advantages. The result of this would be that many of the most disadvantaged people would not be able to vote, because they would be the ones most likely to fail the test. As such, this would take away the little leverage they have in an unfair world.

 

[verminstar]

Afaik the term on this thread for people who voted for or support brexit is "Brexiteer" or "Leaver".

Some have called some of those who voted Leave bigots, racists and ignorant but the mods have clamp we down on that.

"Renowned" is a particular insult from the Leave camp, although I don't care about it.

I would say that using the "remoaner" tag does put you in the same basket as those who say "all leavers are racist" (though it is undeniable that a strand of the Leave vote was based on racism and ignorance it is clearly not all).

And yet listening to some, we are still portrayed as being dumb, short sighted, right wingers, racist, xenophobic village idiots, and thats just a tiny slice of some the descriptions on this thread alone.

And still its an issue being called a remoaner...hypocracy at its finest. Im also not the only person here who has pointed this out so I guess if the remainers want a civil discussion, they should engage brain before turning into keyboard warriors. If they cant take it, they neednt dish it out and theres been plenty of the dishing out going on. Or am I just so stupid, Im misreading the tone? Listening to fuzzy sometimes, with what is borderline hate rhetoric, one has to wonder how he might answer that...fairly sure I know the answer to that one.

The name remoaner actually has a ring of truth to it because since the result of brexit, moaning is really their biggest contribution. At least its better than the threats and the doom and gloom we had before although the doom and gloom is still there.

Ill keep using names when the tone makes me out to be the village idiot...ye dont like the names, then stop using labels...simple and fair imo ^