Crime and Punishment Suggestion Megathread?

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

Hello Commanders! Here's a list of crime and punishment suggestions. Let's make a megathread! Post your suggestions here!

EDIT: Link to Reddit Post.

- Interstellar bounties. Pre-1.3, we had a somewhat broken bounty system wherein one could accrue a bounty and pay it off immediately - however, it would last indefinitely until he/she died or paid it off. Also, bounties spanned across major factions rather than only minor factions - if you were wanted by a tiny fringe system owned by the Federation, you were wanted in Sol. This made criminal activity truly dangerous, and restricted it's movement - I had my Galactic Map always set to the Allegiance filter when flying around, committing my crimes in independent systems. Commit a crime in Federal space, and nearly half of inhabited space was off-limits. Today, I can leave a system after committing a crime and never look back. I'll get a few bounty hunters following me long after I've left, but no police responses.

I'd like a re-implementation of that system, with a few changes: One, no ability to pay off bounties. The current bounty system as it stands is fine (besides the credit amounts), so keep it. Also, there are a lot of independent systems - I can still hop around committing crimes wantonly if the old system were re-implemented. What if independent systems alerted all nearby systems within a specific radius (ex: 15ly) around them to my crimes?

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- Bounty adjustments. A 6,000 credit bounty is the average penalty you'll get for murder around this galaxy of ours. While the actual number matters little to the NPC bounty hunters, it doesn't feel right, and it's a tiny sum for most players to fight another player over. I suggest much larger bounties for each action. For example:

> Interdiction: 1,500 Cr fine
> Assault: 10,000 Cr bounty
> Piracy: 7,500 Cr bounty
> Murder: 50,000 Cr bounty

You see piracy in there? We'll get to that in a minute c:

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- PvP bounty boards.

Here's a link to what I mean. This is a post by Lateralus detailing a way to engage in player bounty hunting. Just wanted to throw some art in this post.

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- Piracy-related crimes. This would be implemented within a crime and punishment system once and if these suggestions for piracy are added to the game, and would help disassociate pirates and gankers, as well as provide an easy method for pirates to engage players and NPCs alike. It would also give pirates a bounty in many situations where would previously escape without the slightest infraction.

For example, during the current Lidpar community goal, I interdicted about 5-6 traders over two days. Each and every one of them complied with my demands, dropped their cargo, and not a shot was fired. This causes a problem; I got away completely scot free, with absolutely no repercussions, and my target had absolutely no way to call for help. I have to open fire in order to draw the police's attention, and by the time they get there after the fightings' started, it's usually over, with the trader dead. This would even the playing ground somewhat, give pirates a reputation as a pirate rather than simple murderers, etc.

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- Remove bounty ceilings. Currently, the largest bounty claim you can possibly earn is one million credits, even if the perp has several millions on his head. While a million credits may certainly seem like a lot, you have to take into account the fighting that occurs between players. Players are like extremes - often they'll be either extremely easy to kill or extremely difficult, but never consistent like NPCs are. A player with a huge bounty is likely to be the latter, and the long, drawn out PvP battles are the most difficult engagements you can possibly enter into in Elite: Dangerous. If I kill Rinzler for his ten bajillion credit bounty, and I had to track him for several days and fight him several times, I want the full bounty. Player bounties aren't as opportunistic as NPC bounties.

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I'll add more when/if I think of more. Care to add your suggestion?

 

[space pilot]

I'll add more when/if I think of more. Care to add your suggestion?

Calling it "Crime and Punishment" implies there's a singular, omnipotent authority with a universal view of right and wrong. I don't think about anyone means that when they use the phrase, and something like "Social Reaction" is better.

Assassination may be a crime for which you can be punished, but you wouldn't be a criminal in the system where the leading faction hired you to do it, and the idea that you would have a punishment coming in general is erroneous. If you go back to the system where you assassinated someone though, a social reaction would be expected.

 

[Arguendo]

A few things that would make the Galaxy more "believable" (muh immursion!) imho:

• 
  
  Remove the suicidewinder mechanic. Rebuy/wanted status must then be locked to the ship you did the crime in I guess, which means you can only become "clean" if you die in that ship, and you won't be able to sell it because it's got a crime attached to it.

• 
  Progressive police/wanted status. If you commit one murder, then the police shouldn't really be that aggressive. They should investigate a bit, but not really come all out immediately. As the kills start to rack up, so should the police response, until it becomes too much for even a PvP-ship to handle. Wanted status should also start expanding into the nearby systems that have the same faction(s) when committing mass-murder.

• 
  Remove docking privileges when wanted. ATC calls out the cmdr name, so they obviously know who we are. That they don't have access to the "Top 5 Bounty list" is silly. "Oh hey mister mass murderer. Welcome to our system. Let us know how we can be of assistance. Oh Seven!"

I don't want crime to go away, as it belongs in the game. But as of now the whole Galaxy is pretty much one big Anarchy, with parts of it being a little bit less Anarchic(?). I would like to see the system sec levels actually mean something beyond a swifter police response, to make the Galaxy feel more alive. Anarchy systems should be scary places (They even have the red warning in the HUD when jumping to them), but they should also give more profit for goods and be a place for the criminals to hang out. Sec space should give less benefit, but feel a bit safer.

Those are my $0.02 anyhow.

PS: Call it Crime and Consequence, as that is more appropriate imo.

 

[Britannkic]

Calling it "Crime and Punishment" implies there's a singular, omnipotent authority with a universal view of right and wrong. I don't think about anyone means that when they use the phrase, and something like "Social Reaction" is better.

But that is exactly what the Pilot's Federation provides, a single omnipotent authority with a universal view of right and wrong

- - - Updated - - -

Bounties are just a short term consequence
A longer term consequence is to gain a galaxy wide lawful/lawless rep as you commit crimes
Like any rep or rank it requires a grind. The more crime and the severity of the crime you commit the lower your lawless rep drops
Dying doesn't clear it either
To raise your rep out of lawless into lawful you'd have to avoid committing crime, your rep increases each day without committing crime.
There would be no easy way out, no suicidwinder, no paying off fines, no grinding out bounties or missions to raise your rep.
Lawful stations would restrict your access to entry or to services depending on your rep
As your rep drops you attract more numerous and powerful bounty hunters, vengeful npcs and attract the attention of police forces more closely as you pass though populated systems. The lowest of lawless reps, the outlaw, would be KOS by any law enforcement agency or naval force
Doing missions for a faction which require an illegal act in another faction's space would contribute to your lawless rep if you were caught, as would smuggling etc
You may be allied with a faction or a superpower but you can still be considered a dodgy piece of work, a necessary evil.

 

[space pilot]

But that is exactly what the Pilot's Federation provides, a single omnipotent authority with a universal view of right and wrong

If they were omnipitent with a universal view of right and wrong, there wouldn't be minor factions, powers, or major factions. They would wave their hand and eliminate all feuding between groups of people by imposing their will on everyone. In other words, I completely disagree on a factual basis.

It's not to say the PF doesn't or can't have internal policies with respect to how they treat their members (or others) based on their actions. But giving them ultimate power to enforce what they desire would be a significant change from the status quo, and I think remove a lot of interesting diversity in the galaxy.

 

[space pilot]

PS: Call it Crime and Consequence, as that is more appropriate imo.

Crime is totally subjective though. A real-life illustration of that is Gary Powers, the spy plane pilot who was captured and convicted of espionage in the USSR. Literally a criminal in the USSR, but not a criminal in any way in the USA.

In ED, if you're working for a Power and blowing opposing ships up like it's going out of style, likewise, you could be a criminal to one side and a hero to the other. If a supreme authority (like an omnipotent Pilot's Federation) singled you out for punishment for doing your job, you might as well throw Powers out. However, if the other Power singled you out for assassination or the like, that would make sense. Social reaction, as opposed to crime and punishment.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

Crime is totally subjective though. A real-life illustration of that is Gary Powers, the spy plane pilot who was captured and convicted of espionage in the USSR. Literally a criminal in the USSR, but not a criminal in any way in the USA.

In ED, if you're working for a Power and blowing opposing ships up like it's going out of style, likewise, you could be a criminal to one side and a hero to the other. If a supreme authority (like an omnipotent Pilot's Federation) singled you out for punishment for doing your job, you might as well throw Powers out. However, if the other Power singled you out for assassination or the like, that would make sense. Social reaction, as opposed to crime and punishment.

If they were omnipitent with a universal view of right and wrong, there wouldn't be minor factions, powers, or major factions. They would wave their hand and eliminate all feuding between groups of people by imposing their will on everyone. In other words, I completely disagree on a factual basis.

It's not to say the PF doesn't or can't have internal policies with respect to how they treat their members (or others) based on their actions. But giving them ultimate power to enforce what they desire would be a significant change from the status quo, and I think remove a lot of interesting diversity in the galaxy.

But that is exactly what the Pilot's Federation provides, a single omnipotent authority with a universal view of right and wrong

- - - Updated - - -

Bounties are just a short term consequence
A longer term consequence is to gain a galaxy wide lawful/lawless rep as you commit crimes
Like any rep or rank it requires a grind. The more crime and the severity of the crime you commit the lower your lawless rep drops
Dying doesn't clear it either
To raise your rep out of lawless into lawful you'd have to avoid committing crime, your rep increases each day without committing crime.
There would be no easy way out, no suicidwinder, no paying off fines, no grinding out bounties or missions to raise your rep.
Lawful stations would restrict your access to entry or to services depending on your rep
As your rep drops you attract more numerous and powerful bounty hunters, vengeful npcs and attract the attention of police forces more closely as you pass though populated systems. The lowest of lawless reps, the outlaw, would be KOS by any law enforcement agency or naval force
Doing missions for a faction which require an illegal act in another faction's space would contribute to your lawless rep if you were caught, as would smuggling etc
You may be allied with a faction or a superpower but you can still be considered a dodgy piece of work, a necessary evil.

Calling it "Crime and Punishment" implies there's a singular, omnipotent authority with a universal view of right and wrong. I don't think about anyone means that when they use the phrase, and something like "Social Reaction" is better.

Assassination may be a crime for which you can be punished, but you wouldn't be a criminal in the system where the leading faction hired you to do it, and the idea that you would have a punishment coming in general is erroneous. If you go back to the system where you assassinated someone though, a social reaction would be expected.

A few things that would make the Galaxy more "believable" (muh immursion!) imho:

• 
  
  Remove the suicidewinder mechanic. Rebuy/wanted status must then be locked to the ship you did the crime in I guess, which means you can only become "clean" if you die in that ship, and you won't be able to sell it because it's got a crime attached to it.

• 
  Progressive police/wanted status. If you commit one murder, then the police shouldn't really be that aggressive. They should investigate a bit, but not really come all out immediately. As the kills start to rack up, so should the police response, until it becomes too much for even a PvP-ship to handle. Wanted status should also start expanding into the nearby systems that have the same faction(s) when committing mass-murder.

• 
  Remove docking privileges when wanted. ATC calls out the cmdr name, so they obviously know who we are. That they don't have access to the "Top 5 Bounty list" is silly. "Oh hey mister mass murderer. Welcome to our system. Let us know how we can be of assistance. Oh Seven!"

I don't want crime to go away, as it belongs in the game. But as of now the whole Galaxy is pretty much one big Anarchy, with parts of it being a little bit less Anarchic(?). I would like to see the system sec levels actually mean something beyond a swifter police response, to make the Galaxy feel more alive. Anarchy systems should be scary places (They even have the red warning in the HUD when jumping to them), but they should also give more profit for goods and be a place for the criminals to hang out. Sec space should give less benefit, but feel a bit safer.

Those are my $0.02 anyhow.

PS: Call it Crime and Consequence, as that is more appropriate imo.

Can we get away from the semantic crap? Sandro calls it Crime and Punishment, I call it crime and punishment. It's a system that will at one point be updated, and it currently exists. Back to discussion, please.

 

[Arguendo]

If they were omnipitent with a universal view of right and wrong, there wouldn't be minor factions, powers, or major factions. They would wave their hand and eliminate all feuding between groups of people by imposing their will on everyone. In other words, I completely disagree on a factual basis.

It's not to say the PF doesn't or can't have internal policies with respect to how they treat their members (or others) based on their actions. But giving them ultimate power to enforce what they desire would be a significant change from the status quo, and I think remove a lot of interesting diversity in the galaxy.

I think you're missing the fact that PF is for commanders only. It does not apply to NPCs as they are not members. And since commanders can't pledge to minor factions, there would be no discrepancy between PF "laying down the law" on cmdr-on-cmdr crime, while leaving cmdr-on-minor faction crime alone. For major powers there's already Power Play, though that could use some tuning ofcourse.

Crime is totally subjective though. A real-life illustration of that is Gary Powers, the spy plane pilot who was captured and convicted of espionage in the USSR. Literally a criminal in the USSR, but not a criminal in any way in the USA.

If someone took a plane, flew it from Canada and landed it on the lawn in front of the US Capitol, I am sure they would be arrested as well. Maybe not charged as a foreign spy, but surely arrested.
(EDIT: Nvm, you're talking about the spy. I thought you were talking about the guy who landed the plane on the Red Square. My bad!)

If you commit a crime in a country, you're a criminal in that country. Different laws for different countries, just like there would be different laws for different systems.

It's a system that will at one point be updated

Most players I talk to want this, but anything coming out of FDev on this appears as nothing but stalling tactics. I commend your effort, but until I hear from FDev that something is definitely in the works and close to being released, I don't believe anything will change

I'm sorry about the C&P vs C&C comment and will stick with C&P from now on, but the PF crimes vs Minor Faction crimes is relevant in the discussion imho.

 

[space pilot]

Can we get away from the semantic crap? Sandro calls it Crime and Punishment, I call it crime and punishment. It's a system that will at one point be updated, and it currently exists. Back to discussion, please.

I think calling it Crime and Punishment is a key reason it's been put on the back burner and ignored. The concept of C&P across the ED galaxy is broken. Semantic "crap" is important, so people know what people mean, instead of having no idea, or being completely wrong about it.

But okay. Have your thread.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you're missing the fact that PF is for commanders only. It does not apply to NPCs as they are not members. And since commanders can't pledge to minor factions, there would be no discrepancy between PF "laying down the law" on cmdr-on-cmdr crime, while leaving cmdr-on-minor faction crime alone. For major powers there's already Power Play, though that could use some tuning ofcourse.

I don't think I'm missing it, and I don't think there should be a necessary distinction between "crimes" against players and NPCs, if we value the integrity of the game world.

There is PVP combat in Powerplay. Commanders destroying other commanders' ships. (I don't think killing/murder is canon, given our escape pods.) Would the Pilot's Federation consider that criminal?

 

[Lateralus]

All good proposals in the OP

For the PvP bounty hunting side of things, one way to negate the 'bounty farming' problem (the reason FDev capped player bounties) is to give the hunter a cut of the criminal players rebuy. This would mean that wanted players in expensive ships are worth hunting down and trying to kill.

Full idea detailed out here.

I support all the piracy enhancement ideas too of course.

 

[Arguendo]

I don't think I'm missing it, and I don't think there should be a necessary distinction between "crimes" against players and NPCs, if we value the integrity of the game world.

There is no distinction between the two as far as the Controlling Faction is concerned. Since the PF only admits cmdrs however, there needs to be a difference in that part of it if there is to be a galaxy-wide bounty/karma/something-something system.

There is PVP combat in Powerplay. Commanders destroying other commanders' ships. (I don't think killing/murder is canon, given our escape pods.) Would the Pilot's Federation consider that criminal?

No, because those are acts of war (covert or not). Other rules apply in war, even though you have war-crimes they're not the same.

 

[Princess Nia]

Murder should indict a bounty equal to the victims rebuy cost

destroying someone with a bounty should only reward up to the amount of the victim (that has the bounty) rebuy cost

prevents suicide winder (as it would reward only like 32k in bounty).

for each million in bounty, cops come 1 second quicker.
At 10 million bounty, cops should arrive to assaults in HazRes

Low - viper, eagle, vulture response. 0.5x response time modifier
Medium - viper, eagle, vulture, FDL response. 1x response time modifier
High - viper, eagle, vulture, FDL, Anaconda, Corvette, Cutter response. 1.25x response time modifier.

Station services

Law obiding people (can) pay a fee to have cop response time upp'd by 0.25x
pay a fee to tip last known system of criminals with 1mill or more bounty
Criminals with 5 million or more bounty have their last known location displayed on bounty board at stations
Criminals with 10 million or more bounty are broadcasted as symbols on the galaxy map within proximity of 20lyr of systems they are wanted in collectively.


Docking

Criminals with 5 million or more in local bounties are disallowed docking at the main stations
Criminals with 7 million or more in local bounties are disallowed docking at outposts


If FDev decided to take combat logging seriously, we could even say criminals with a bounty have to pay up to 25% extra of their rebuy to the bounty office if their respawn is that of a station in which they retain a bounty, and retain the rest as a bounty. but again, increased rebuy = increased combat logging.

And there ya go.

 

[space pilot]

No, because those are acts of war (covert or not). Other rules apply in war, even though you have war-crimes they're not the same.

If war can be easily differentiated from say, wanton sadistic destruction, then it wouldn't be unreasonable for the latter to be addressed by the PF. It sounds difficult to me though, say if your Powerplay goal is to disrupt trading, and you're destroying "merchant vessels" in an opposing system. As in real war I'm sure it would be called criminal by one side and not the other, but how would an aloof authority like the PF classify it? And how could it tell the difference between political action and personal?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Many things that *could* change, but for me the single most important thing at this time would be to close the suicidewinder method of clearing bounties. As long as that still exists, any other measures are a waste of time.

How they do it? They could link the bounty to both ship and CMDR. They could cause rebuy cost to be fixed to the ship you committed the crime in. Probably other variants exist.

Whatever, just deal with that first. Do the crime, do the time (of being wanted). Then we can talk about other measures.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Multi-system bounties are an absolute must.....whether those are based on Power or Super-power control of system-so commit a crime against a Faction, & you gain a bounty with any Power or Super-power that Faction is affiliated with. Enter a system controlled by a rival Power/Super-power, though, & you're basically a "clean skin".

Bounties should remain live until they expire. Dying should *not* make a bounty go dormant.

Commiting multiple crimes against the same faction should have an additive effect. If you have 4 days left on a bounty , then commit a crime with a 3 day bounty against that same faction, then your previous bounty should increase to 7 days.

There needs to be a more granular Wanted System, based on the number/size of bounties against you-from petty criminal up to most wanted criminal. How system security responds to you will depend on how wanted you are.

If you have an outstanding bounty with a Faction, then it should be impossible to do business with that faction-mission board, passenger lounge & even contacts, should be unavailable through that Faction Same would be true for Powers & Super Powers. Likewise, gaining a bounty from a Faction/Power/Super-power should have a much bigger impact on your long term relations with that group.


Lastly, even after all bountiee have expired, you should potentially gain a reputation, within that jurisdiction, if you keep committing crimes within said jurisdiction (Karma).

 

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

There are people who will bait you into shooting them, for example by interdicting you and shooting at you, and them making you wanted. As a PVPer, you have your crimes OFF almost all the time because you don't want NPCs to jump into your fights with other PVPers. Some low-tier noobs exploit this and turn their crimes ON when the fight isn't going their way or they just let you land a hit first which gives you bounty despite them starting the fight.

It should be displayed in HUD when someone has crimes ON, it should be impossible to turn ON when you're wanted yourself, and it shouldn't be possible to turn ON mid-combat. A lawful trader or explorer has no need to turn crimes OFF, there is no reason to not prevent this.

If you want better C&P, you also must think of how you prevent people from exploiting it.

 

[CMDR_Elver]

There are a few changes I would make regarding bounties as it is totally dysfunctional in its present state. Bounties are placed on people that the authorities want dealing, think wild west wanted poster. Paying off a bounty doesn't make sense, that is effectively what a fine is. Time limits and artificial caps on the claim also don't make any sense. The claim cap of a million credits is a quick fix to stop suicide sidewinder bounty fraud. To get round these problems I would:

1. Link bounties to reputation. If hostile (or generally negative) to a faction/power then any further crimes would result in a bounty. This is effectively the authority is saying we want a CMDR dead.
2. Remove the time limit for bounties, again link it to reputation, if a CMDR builds up reputation with the faction/power then the bounty pot is suspended or converted to fines that can be paid off. Government types, could also affect how crimes effect reputation and what levels of reputation are need to suspend the bounty
3. Bounties (and fines) for that matter should relate to the crime. Let say destroying a ship, this should incur a bounty of the cost of that ship + modules.
4. Any bounties gained would accrue a bounty pot for the relevant faction or power. If destroyed then a victorious CMDR could claim up to the amount of the destroyed ship + modules (galactic average prices). If using a KWS a CMDR could then claim up to the ship cost + modules for each pot outside the jurisdication. The claim total linked to ship cost is important for making bounty fraud uneconomical but I would also change the insurance system to take into account PF reputation (see below) and insurance claim rates also.
5. Docking privileges would also be dependant on the relevant faction/power reputations.

Pilots Federation is the key to C&P, it should be able to issue bounties for CMDR v CMDR incidents regardless of local jurisdictions and it generously insures CMDR. As there is no death for CMDR's then taxes is the logical punishment.

1. Create a PF reputation scale for each CMDR but base the gains and losses on the results of CMDR v CMDR ship destructions. Gain reputation for a legitimate ship kill and lose reputation for an illegitimate kill.
Basically if you attack and destroy a CMDR with a neutral or positive reputation, then you risk loosing reputation and gain a fine/bounty i.e. an illegitimate act. If you destroy a CMDR with a negative reputation, whether attacking or defending then you gain reputation and claim a bounty, i.e. legitimate act. Bounties/fines and claims would work the same as mentioned in the bounty system above. I have worked on a set of rules for this in another thread but basically Combat Zones and Power Play actions are exempt. This would create a dynamic where the is always something at stake from pvp combat. Also it will create a virtue out of combat as CMDR's with negative reputation have a method to gain positive reputation by destroying other CMDR's with a negate rep (dog eat dog).

2. Change the insurance calculation to include PF reputation factor, claim rates & discounts.

I = S * (R + C - d)
where
I = Insurance / buy back cost; S = Ship + module Cost; R = PF reputation factor; C = Claim rate factor; d = discounts).

Basically rewards positive behaviour (in the context of the PF) and good piloting and penalises negative behaviour and bad piloting. A calculation like this would create a much needed bit of jeopardy in the game and could eliminate bounty fraud.

I have detailed these ideas in an article attached to this post if interested.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...17#post5322317

 

[Jaylem]

It does sound pretty good so far. I do love slaughtering pirates and this may actually give me higher bounties in systems...I always hate it when I have bounties at the other end of populated space I never handed in

just one thing though...10,000 for assult!!!??? that'd put me out for a week in that system. currently if one of my turrets or my projectile misses the target I get an immediate bounty for it accidently hitting a target! I am not a murderer. (except for innocent pirates) and in doing the right thing I get immediately penalised for stray shots. meanwhile they can shoot me as much as they like with friendly fire and not get anything....not fair


all and all.. this does sound a little more realistic, only that it is a bit weird that you could murder someone and get a bounty that is rather small in comparison to your actions. and also kind of weird how neighbouring systems just shrug it off like they never knew about it.

- - - Updated - - -

If they attack you first don't they already get an immediate bounty? unless you have one they generally have no right to attack you...also scanning the targets first tends to help, found that out the hard way haha countless times I have open fire on a target I know is wanted and get a bounty myself because I shot too early...urgh