VR Question

[shadragon]

If all you want to do is to play Elite, get a Rift.

If you want a better all-around experience with the ability to interact with multiple games in a 15 x 15 foot area and play Elite, then get a Vive.

I also own a FOVE, but it is a cheaper alternative and I can't recommend it at this time.

 

[Zambrick]

The most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time! Truly written as someone who has never tried roomscale (current benchmark for immersive VR) Thanks for the good laugh.

I have both Rift and Vive. I have the touch controllers as well. So yes I know what I am talking about.

As far as traditional VR is concerned it is a gimmick.

So please dont give your fanboi crap attitude. I am telling you what VR will become and running around in your front room blind as a bat by yourself is not going to be the way of the future. If you cant accept that fact then you are the one who is delusional and are getting AR and VR interchangeably confused.

The OP wanted to know which was the best purchase and having used both with all of their features including controllers Oculus Rift wins hands down.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I mostly play elite in VR and used to play Subnautica before they screwed up the mouse/keyboard controls for it. Room Scale sounds cool but in the end I play most stuff in the cockpit. Looking forward to the new X series game coming up with VR support standard. I should ad that I currently use the DK2.

Vive does good cockpit stuff. Rift does good room scale. Both hmds do have their strengths but which ever you choose you wont lock yourself out of any experiences (tho ideally need extra 70 quid camera for full room scale in the rift

I believe mechwarrior 5 will do vr. This excites the hell out of me after playing vox machine tech demo. (And giant mechs imo coukd be a good fit for ED too)

 

[CylonSurfer]

I have both Rift and Vive. I have the touch controllers as well. So yes I know what I am talking about.

As far as traditional VR is concerned it is a gimmick.

So please dont give your fanboi crap attitude. I am telling you what VR will become and running around in your front room blind as a bat by yourself is not going to be the way of the future. If you cant accept that fact then you are the one who is delusional and are getting AR and VR interchangeably.

The OP wanted to know which was the best purchase and having used both with all of their features including controllers Oculus Rift wins hands down.

We don't usually agree but he is right. Roomscale is a bit of a fad or buzz word, not a benchmark for VR

 

[DaggerSnake]

Vive does good cockpit stuff. Rift does good room scale. Both hmds do have their strengths but which ever you choose you wont lock yourself out of any experiences (tho ideally need extra 70 quid camera for full room scale in the rift

I believe mechwarrior 5 will do vr. This excites the hell out of me after playing vox machine tech demo. (And giant mechs imo coukd be a good fit for ED too)

Yes! I heard about Mechwarrior being developed with VR in mind. That's will be amazing.

I'm excited to see how Lone Echo plays, they are supposed to have raised the bar on zero g locomotion with the touch controllers pulling yourself around. Maybe ED will take notes...

 

[rally]

Mad mike: Rift does good room scale? Was that a typo? My vive works way better than my rift for roomscale and slightly better in general for tracking.

Anyway...aside from playing Elite... room scale games are entirely what made me fall in love with Vr. That is wholly a matter of opinion, not a buzz word. My opinion is room scale games are what makes VR truly awesome. I actually didn't even realize they made another sequel to elite until I got into Vr. I bought Vive because of room scale games, I bought elite dangerous because of vive, and I bought and oculus because of elite dangerous. ...and now that my vive performs as well as the oculus does (unlike the old days) I will be selling my oculus. Anyway point is. Dont you dare call room scale a fad! blasphemer

 

[CylonSurfer]

Mad mike: Rift does good room scale? Was that a typo? My vive works way better than my rift for roomscale and slightly better in general for tracking.

Anyway...aside from playing Elite... room scale games are entirely what made me fall in love with Vr. That is wholly a matter of opinion, not a buzz word. My opinion is room scale games are what makes VR truly awesome. I actually didn't even realize they made another sequel to elite until I got into Vr. I bought Vive because of room scale games, I bought elite dangerous because of vive, and I bought and oculus because of elite dangerous. ...and now that my vive performs as well as the oculus does (unlike the old days) I will be selling my oculus. Anyway point is. Dont you dare call room scale a fad! blasphemer

I could take it or leave it, 360 on the spot with motion controls does near enough the same and not many people have rooms to spare for true room scale. It's pretty much a fad, as much as I enjoy it.

 

[Strangepork]

I have an Oculus, got it almost entirely for Elite. Strongly recommend you borrow a friend's before you buy if it's going to be a big purchase for you. I use mine occasionally, but I play using conventional monitors far more often than VR. It's definitely very immersive, but I find wearing an HMD is better suited to some types of play a lot more than others. For example, if you plan on spending an evening in a RES, it's a pretty nice way to play. But if you're making a bunch of jumps traveling somewhere, doing simple mission running, or want to have a drink (it's hard to use cups), you might find you opt to play without VR.

There's definitely an element of personal preference, but as someone who plays mostly though the occasional marathon session, I find I prefer kicking back without wearing my Oculus.

VR HMD should definitely come with a straw

 

[rally]

All that said, if mounting or setting the lighthouses up properly aren't a good option then I can see the oculus tracking being potentially an easier/better option for some.

I happened to have a 15' by 15' space that had walls on 3 sides, so it was fairly easy for me to get the lighthouses perfectly mounted diagonally and slightly above my height with the included wall mounts with nearly the perfect play space dimensions in a matter of minutes of unboxing.

Some people obviously struggle with lighthouse placement, have to buy camera stands or whatever else and have them in suboptimal places or what not. Room size/shape...wall location.. window location (light source location) are all factors.

 

[evanevery]

The best part of the Rift with ED is you DO NOT need a room scale implementation. You play ED sitting in your pilot chair. You do not need to stand up and move around. The very nature of the game eliminates any need for room scale movement and it also removes the challenges faced by other games on how to employ bipedal locomotion without nausea. You have full 360 spherical vision and its perfectly synchronized and rendered. You just need to look around... (Although you can get up and walk to the back of the cockpit if thats your thing...)

The Rift ***IS*** immersive. You see what you look at. There is no false head twisting or multiple monitors required. There is no lag, blur, etc. Its all perfectly synchronized with your head movement. You turn to look at the left panel and its right where it should be. The automatic head focus feature makes it pop up and active when you look at its position. Very specifically, its exactly where it should be and when you look there its perfect!

 

[the100thmonkey]

it doesn't matter where the pixels are, if you wearing reading glasses due to age you won't need them in a VR headset, near-sighted people are not so fortunate however so it depends WHY you have varifocals.

Not something I have to deal with, fortunately.

The point I was making is that there's only so much a lens can correct - the pixels are very close to your eyes, and this restricts the amount of correction that's possible. Distant pixels obviously allow a much wider range of corrections.


As for the rest of the comments on the thread, there's a certain... religiosity to them that I find difficult to join in with. VR just isn't that great at current resolutions and technologies. I suspect there's a bit of my-side bias (or buyer's blindness; I don't know the appropriate terminology, although I'm sure there's a specific term for it.)

I mean, it's all right, impressive even, but there are too many little annoying things that really detract from it.

 

[evanevery]

I mean, it's all right, impressive even, but there are too many little annoying things that really detract from it.

So, you're speaking from experience? You actually have a VR rig and have played ED with it?

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Not to say I'm not looking forward to the next gen HMD with higher resolution...

However, be aware the lower HMD resolution is not that big a deal as you are often not focused in a single view for very long. Just like action sequences in movies contain blurry images, your brain remaps the visual info as you look around in a "live" environment.

Sure, there are some times you need to look a little closer to see if some small digit on the HUD is a 5 or a 6, but the total immersion of the event is well worth it. (You can even move your head a bit closer to the digit in question and it will get visually closer and larger).

I wear glasses for reading but I don't need them with the Rift. The optics are pretty good to begin with...

 

[VR StarLightPL]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/319126-Vive-or-Rift?p=4964286&viewfull=1#post4964286 Here's my comparison of the two from a while ago. There are other "Vive or Rift" threads out there.
The rule of thumb seems to be: If buying only for Elite, go for rift (even w/o touch), if buying for VR in general get the vive because of better tracking and their attempts to build an ecosystem with vive trackers - seems more solid for now for what we know. Also Vive will have wireless add-on (bye bye cable) for $250 in Q2 2017 (tpcast).

As for roomscale, a space of 2.5x2.5m is quite fine for RS. I currently squeezed 3.0x2.2m out of my living room and it is sufficient for all my current games. But while roomscale is fun (for example moving to cover in Raw Data), it is still limited to our physical boundaries. So unless that is plugged directly into brain in the distant future, you will from time to time have to take a step back and "teleport" in the game. It is not a deal breaker though.

I am also curious about Oculus camera based tracking performance in direct sunlight. Vive is being used in a very sunny living room and the tracking seems to be immune to the sunlight, so IDK why someone did post about light sources there.

Also: all those are OPINIONS. Try before you buy.

PS: The legendary "elite looks like **** in Vive" argument has sailed with the HMD slider in E: D and OpenVR settings' supersampling. It is only partly true wrt the fact that you need to do some adjustments and install 3rd party dashboard app for SteamVR which you will want anyway because it is immensely useful. This argument will become non-existent as soon as SteamVR gets dynamic supersampling adjustment based on current performance. Which is probably a question of "when" and not "if".

 

[Kaltern]

It's a shame the StarVR headset isn't being made available for consumers, as it sounds like it would be perfect for Elite. *sad panda*

Oddly, I've seen nothing about any other headset (of any use) being developed at all. I HAD a Rift.. I sold it back before I got upgraded from a 970 to a 1080, and I assume that will make a big difference.. but I was holding out for a new headset announcement.

Guess I'll buy another Rift

 

[Frank]

Not something I have to deal with, fortunately.

The point I was making is that there's only so much a lens can correct - the pixels are very close to your eyes, and this restricts the amount of correction that's possible. Distant pixels obviously allow a much wider range of corrections.


As for the rest of the comments on the thread, there's a certain... religiosity to them that I find difficult to join in with. VR just isn't that great at current resolutions and technologies. I suspect there's a bit of my-side bias (or buyer's blindness; I don't know the appropriate terminology, although I'm sure there's a specific term for it.)

I mean, it's all right, impressive even, but there are too many little annoying things that really detract from it.

No. I still don't get it. The headset already contain lenses which make the image appear as if it is in focus at infinity. All the image is focussed that far away. There are no nearer pixels. Surely if you have to wear glasses within the headset you would need single prescription lenses made specifically for long distance viewing? Or better still, have custom lenses within the headset that corrects for your own particular eyesight.

If I understand it correctly, the bottom bit of varifocals are like reading glasses, which would be totally useless within the headset.

 

[evanevery]

I'm farsighted and need reading glasses, well, for reading! Can't see/read crap without them... However, for some reason, I DON'T need to wear any glasses with the Rift as I would expect... Although I think it could be better if the Rift had a focus adjustment (just has IPD).

I've never had any issues with head tracking and the Rift - its seamless. I don't know anything about the Vive, but I expect it works just as well. I don't think it fundamentally matters which implementation (Rift or Vive) you choose! The point is, this is a whole 'nother game once you immerse yourself in VR! I've played Elite since its first incarnation (on the Commodore 64)!!! (Yes - I'm THAT old!) I had ED Horizons before I installed a VR rig and I played it a couple of times. ...but now, with the VR Rig, its a whole different thing!

When you play ED "on your PC", your sitting at your desk, probably in front of a really nice monitor, keyboard, some papers, maybe a cup of coffee, your dog, and the rest of the crap in your basement... Its a familiar environment for you - the same old thing. You're sitting there in front of your monitor and can be impressed with the really nice graphics!

When you play ED in VR, you're sitting IN your cockpit, there is NO monitor, you have a complete first person 3D view of your virtual surroundings, you have pop-up holographic panels and instruments you can interact with and don't even know if the lights are on or off in the basement (or if the sun is shining outside, or what time of day it is...)... You have NO familiar distractions...

When you play in VR - You are IN the game. When you play via a monitor you are just watching the game on a display...

BTW - Found this about Rift/Vive Head Tracking (https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/489kya/how_the_rift_vives_tracking_actually_workj/):

Both the Rift AND the Vive both use the IMU as the primary position tracking system. It responds extremely quickly and updates at several hundred Hz (1000Hz sampling, 500Hz reporting). However, IMUs drift due to double-integration of error. The drift is on the order of metres per second. So what both tracking systems do is squelch that error 60 times per second (both have a 60Hz global position update rate) using their optical sensors to provide an absolute position reference.

For BOTH systems, high-speed position tracking performance is down ENTIRELY to IMU performance. It wouldn't be possible at all without another absolute reference system (optical, magnetic or otherwise) but it's the IMU that's doing the grunt-work.

However, the IMU is even more important for the Vive than the Rift. The Rift's Constellation cameras are genlocked; they capture a frame at the same point in time. That means all marker positions are known at the exact same time. However, Lighthouse is a scanning system: not only do you not know the positions of markers at the same point in time, you don't even get the X and Y positions at the same point in time: there is a 4ms delay (4 scans per 16ms) between each laser strike for each sensor. If a controller is moving at a modest 1ms-1 , then between laser strikes it's moved 4mm! While throwing a controller like a cricket ball is extremely ill advised, a 150mph throw (~150mph hand speed) is 45ms-1, or 180mm between scans. Using the IMU data allows you to update parts of the position (X or Y coords, or polar spherical coords relative to the basestation, depending on how Valve are doing their math) independently of each other.

As for Constellation having a 'smearing' issue: Commercial optical MCAP systems do not generally use active markers (though some do), but retroreflective markers and an illumination system adjacent to the camera lens. These relative dim markers are still easily discriminable in all but the harshest (e.g. outdoors in direct sunlight) conditions. If you're being clever with your blob tracking, you can even use the blob shape from the smear in order to provide an instantaneous velocity measurement, though it's generally just easier to drop the shutter speed and make your markers brighter.

 

[Frank]

I'm farsighted and need reading glasses, well, for reading! Can't see/read crap without them... However, for some reason, I DON'T need to wear any glasses with the Rift as I would expect... Although I think it could be better if the Rift had a focus adjustment (just has IPD).

Maybe Oculus knew that the first buyers of the headset would be old people whose failing eyesight makes them farsighted <fixed grin>

However, the IMU is even more important for the Vive than the Rift. The Rift's Constellation cameras are genlocked; they capture a frame at the same point in time. That means all marker positions are known at the exact same time. However, Lighthouse is a scanning system: not only do you not know the positions of markers at the same point in time, you don't even get the X and Y positions at the same point in time: there is a 4ms delay (4 scans per 16ms) between each laser strike for each sensor. If a controller is moving at a modest 1ms-1 , then between laser strikes it's moved 4mm! While throwing a controller like a cricket ball is extremely ill advised, a 150mph throw (~150mph hand speed) is 45ms-1, or 180mm between scans. Using the IMU data allows you to update parts of the position (X or Y coords, or polar spherical coords relative to the basestation, depending on how Valve are doing their math) independently of each other.

Something I considered when I was making my choice was that the VIVE's system uses spinning mirrors. I know that it's now quite an established technology, but I prefer things without moving parts.

 

[d8veh]

I tried the DK2 first, which had some adjustment lenses to correct your sight. The CV1 has nothing, so if you're short sighted, you have to wear glasses, but that brings another problem. when you lift the headset to see your keyboard or monitor, your glasses go with it, so you can't see what you want in focus. It's a right pain.

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Your arguments are outdated.

i don't think so. I only bought my CV1 just a few weeks ago. Has something changed since then?

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As far as not being able to recognize the ships in a distance using a GTX 1080 is just complete B.S. Configure HMD to at least 1.5 and SS to 1.0 or better and everything is crisp.

I had it set like that after taking advice from the good people in the VR forum, but it's still not good enough compared with a 4k monitor. I'm not saying that it should be as good, but I do think it's not good enough.

 

[A D]

Take a look at the HDK 2 at http://osvr.org. Comparable to Rift and Vive (has same resolution, 90hz refresh, 110 degree FOV and positional tracking with IR camera), but much cheaper. However, word of warning - it's NOT PNP! There's an installer for Win 10 but you will find that you need to do some fiddling and be patient to get it working. Its supported by Steam, but still smallish game library. ED is natively supported though.

Not sure why the OSVR HDK2 is not getting a mention (see my post above). It has everything that Rift and Vive (except room scale) have, but is cheaper which is good given that VR is still new technology that will probably change anyway. Has anyone else used the HDK2 and compared it to Rift or Vive? Happy to share my experience, but basically its seems as good as any of the other full featured VR HMD's.

 

[SlackR]

I have an Oculus, got it almost entirely for Elite. Strongly recommend you borrow a friend's before you buy if it's going to be a big purchase for you. I use mine occasionally, but I play using conventional monitors far more often than VR. It's definitely very immersive, but I find wearing an HMD is better suited to some types of play a lot more than others. For example, if you plan on spending an evening in a RES, it's a pretty nice way to play. But if you're making a bunch of jumps traveling somewhere, doing simple mission running, or want to have a drink (it's hard to use cups), you might find you opt to play without VR.

There's definitely an element of personal preference, but as someone who plays mostly though the occasional marathon session, I find I prefer kicking back without wearing my Oculus.

That so interesting. I cannot play a minute of ED without VR... it's just too flat!