Unintended consequences of hiding PCs amongst NPCs

[CaptainSodom]

Due to concerns about some aspects of adversarial and non-consensual PvP, one option mooted is a feature so that you can't tell whether a ship is a PC or an NPC ship. When I first heard about it it sounded like a novel and potentially fun idea. But after thinking about it for a while, it has some unintended consequences, potentially rather negative ones.

If you know you can hide in the crowds, you try to blend in. So whenever there are ships around you and you're hauling valuable cargo, you will try to fly like an NPC. You will try to learn AI flying and docking patterns, mining styles and routes, and mimic them. This doesn't sound like much fun, and makes zero sense from game world or RP perspective.

On the other side, people who PvP are in it for the PvP, not PvE (duh). In other words, we're in it for the thrill of the kill, to melt faces, not to zero the bits of AI bots. If I don't know whether a ship is an NPC ship or not, I will try to tease out that information so that I can play against human opponents. Perhaps by scanning the cargo for anomalies, or looking at flight patterns mentioned above. I'd much rather spend that time chasing and fighting, than playing spot the bot in space.

Obviously some will play bounty hunters who are in it for the credits alone, no matter the target is AI or PC. But I'm confident that majority of PvP players will seek out players over AI.

The above is called metagaming, gaming that is largely or entirely outside the game world. While cat and mouse games are fun, metagaming hide and seek doesn't sound much fun at all. It completely shatters the fourth wall, and gives us a constant reminder of the cogs and wheels behind the game. Instead of a multiplayer space exploration game we get a forced and incongruous Elite: Turing Test.

As such hiding PCs amongst NPCs is not a welcome feature.

[edit: dev Sandro pitched in here]

 

[1500]

The fact that you only want to PVP and not do any PVE is metagaming already. So whats the difference?

Not being able to tell the difference is a good thing.

 

[Hamerstein]

The above is called metagaming, gaming that is largely or entirely outside the game world. While cat and mouse games are fun, metagaming hide and seek doesn't sound much fun at all. It completely shatters the fourth wall, and gives us a constant reminder of the cogs and wheels behind the game. Instead of a multiplayer space exploration game we get a forced and incongruous Elite: Turing Test.

As such hiding PCs amongst NPCs is not a welcome feature.

To play Devil's advocate...

Isn't being able to instantly spot a PC from an NPC a form of metagaming too? In this instance one that has been incorporated into the game mechanics rather than contrived by the player base.

There is no logical reason why the Cobra of Cordelia Connors should appear any different to that of Commander <Insert name here>, other than that the game automatically differentiates them. Unless you can spot them as a player in the game environ.

The counter argument is that you do not have to spend the time trying to "spot the player character", you could just play the game - hunt your intended targets regardless of the "humanity" and not try to play the metagame at all.

 

[CaptainSodom]

The fact that you only want to PVP and not do any PVE is metagaming already. So whats the difference?

Not being able to tell the difference is a good thing.

In a perfect world there would be no NPCs, as everyone would be a PC. Due to various constrains it is not a feasible in an MMO.

 

[1500]

In a perfect world there would be no NPCs, as everyone would be a PC. Due to various constrains it is not a feasible in an MMO.

Disagree and you didn't answer the question.

 

[Yaffle]

I think we need to see the transponder thingy in action (assuming that is implemented).

For me I don't need to see a person vs an AI. In my little Elite RP world a blip is a blip. I find it grating that a day one human is highlighted to me when a Rank 1 NPC (say the Emperor) would be an anonymous blip. Why is the one special? (S)he's not. Flying experience, 35 seconds. Influence in the universe: none. Why tell me about them?

I see, but don't fully understand, the argument that "I can only believe it's a multiplayer game if I can instantly identify other humans" argument. To me I know I live in Britain, I don't need to see everyone's passport when I see them to see if they are British and to remind me I live in Britain. People I meet are people. Entities I meet in a game are entities, the fact some are wetware and some software is irrelevant.

The insta-ID (at the moment at least) tends towards PCs being targetted. This can be for "the lulz" or it can be to stop a rival farming "on my patch" or it could be to see if the other player wants to fight, if not to back off. That I find annoying. Pirate me for my goods, sure. Attack me for my bounty, sure. Attack me because I'm a hollow point on your radar when there are better targets - what are you doing?

Anyway, back to the OP. If we try the transponder thing, those that want PvP put your transponders on. Those that don't, or like me don't really care just want to see blips, leave them off.

Part of the issue on these threads is, from what I can tell, those wishing to play as pirates seem to want to PvP only against traders ("for the challenge"), forgetting that there will be PvP against them from the bounty hunters. If you want PvP you can find it. If you don't, then play single player (on or offline) if like me you just want to play the game in a universe with other people and AIs, then do it. Everyone also forgets that AIs will pirate traders, AIs will bounty hunt and AIs will trade.

Let's try it and see.

 

[Teiwaz]

I find the idea intriguing. At the same time, though, I'd happily hunt and kill NPCs for their cargo, but when I target players, I go after pirates exclusively since I can't really learn much from popping haulers. Would kinda suck to end up accidentally killing players all the time.

What if it was something like you get your pilot's federation membership suspended if you kill too many members, which removes your ability to differentiate players from NPCs on radar?

At that point, you're a known pirate who targets members, so the pilot's federation stops helping you pick out who is who. PC traders would be able to hide from PC pirates, but still recognize PC pirates, as would PC bounty hunters. PC pirates would have to target ships based on their cargo, or by hanging around long enough to examine their behavior, which would reduce the "random ganking, show up and shoot first" thing.

 

[Rhaedas]

If you're wanting to play as a pirate, and you look for cargo, why does it matter that it's a NPC carrying it? Maybe your rationale is you want the prize to be harder to get? What if the PCs who have cargo end up being easier that the NPCs, because they want to play trader, and aren't fight experienced? That messes with the whole PvP is better mantra, doesn't it?

But optimistically, let's say players are better, less predictable, etc. Then it's up to FD to make a better AI, not to make it so you just don't mess with them. Fix the game, don't do exactly what you warn about doing, breaking the immersion by keeping signs of artificiality.

This is a major development step, but I've always thought it would be cool for AI routines to learn from the players, techniques or strategies, or just eliminate stuff that consistently fails for them.

 

[Rhaedas]

I hope at some point pirate players start complaining because the NPC pirates are better at getting the booty than them. Or that bounty hunters do the same because that NPC bounty hunter got the credit for the kill. That already happens some, doesn't it?

There shouldn't be NPC or PC at all, it should be a lot of pilots, some better than others.

 

[Hamerstein]

I find the idea intriguing. At the same time, though, I'd happily hunt and kill NPCs for their cargo, but when I target players, I go after pirates exclusively since I can't really learn much from popping haulers. Would kinda suck to end up accidentally killing players all the time.

What if it was something like you get your pilot's federation membership suspended if you kill too many members, which removes your ability to differentiate players from NPCs on radar?

At that point, you're a known pirate who targets members, so the pilot's federation stops helping you pick out who is who. PC traders would be able to hide from PC pirates, but still recognize PC pirates, as would PC bounty hunters. PC pirates would have to target ships based on their cargo, or by hanging around long enough to examine their behavior, which would reduce the "random ganking, show up and shoot first" thing.

That would create another artificial mechanism that determines what you can see and when.

As Yaffle observes, in reality we don't differentiate between people based on an artificial marker, a serial killer doesn't have a big arrow pointing at him/her saying "serial killer". The best way to encourage genuine responses from players within the game environment is to not make any distinction at all, and engender unbiased responses.

I feel that the option to turn transponders on is a concession to those who want to actively PvP, not a restriction upon PvP oriented players' activity. But that is a matter of perspective.

 

[Teiwaz]

That would create another artificial mechanism that determines what you can see and when.

The ingame justification for differentiating PCs from NPCs is that all PCs belong to the pilot's federation, while no NPCs do.

Why would the pilot's federation provide information on who its members are to a pilot who has been targeting them?

 

[veep]

This has got to be the most thinly-veiled case of pushing one's own agenda that I have ever seen.

 

[pduffield]

If players continue to be identified separately from NPCs as they are now, I will simply choose not to play in multiplayer as it would be a constant jarring reminder that I am playing a game.

Yes, I know it is a game, but while playing I want to be able to suspend disbelief as much as possible, like when I am watching a movie.

 

[StayFrosty]

I think we all need to wait until we get to play the beta.

Once there's actual security, bounties, fines, and group options, people will realize we don't need more than that.

Might aswell think about how multiplayer isn't only an opportunity for confrontation, but also cooperation, rescue, or quite simply making friends

 

[Darkfyre99]

Due to concerns about some aspects of adversarial and non-consensual PvP, one option mooted is a feature so that you can't tell whether a ship is a PC or an NPC ship. When I first heard about it it sounded like a novel and potentially fun idea. But after thinking about it for a while, it has some unintended consequences, potentially rather negative ones.

If you know you can hide in the crowds, you try to blend in. So whenever there are ships around you and you're hauling valuable cargo, you will try to fly like an NPC. You will try to learn AI flying and docking patterns, mining styles and routes, and mimic them. This doesn't sound like much fun, and makes zero sense from game world or RP perspective.

On the other side, people who PvP are in it for the PvP, not PvE (duh). In other words, we're in it for the thrill of the kill, to melt faces, not to zero the bits of AI bots. If I don't know whether a ship is an NPC ship or not, I will try to tease out that information so that I can play against human opponents. Perhaps by scanning the cargo for anomalies, or looking at flight patterns mentioned above. I'd much rather spend that time chasing and fighting, than playing spot the bot in space.

Obviously some will play bounty hunters who are in it for the credits alone, no matter the target is AI or PC. But I'm confident that majority of PvP players will seek out players over AI.

The above is called metagaming, gaming that is largely or entirely outside the game world. While cat and mouse games are fun, metagaming hide and seek doesn't sound much fun at all. It completely shatters the fourth wall, and gives us a constant reminder of the cogs and wheels behind the game. Instead of a multiplayer space exploration game we get a forced and incongruous Elite: Turing Test.

As such hiding PCs amongst NPCs is not a welcome feature.

If you want to kill me because I'm carrying valuable cargo, or have a bounty on my head, or have signed on to the other side of a battle, that's one thing. I have no issue of with that. PvP for in-game reasons is perfectly acceptable to me.

If you want to kill me because "zeroing bots" is no fun, then that is a "metagame" I want to have no part of: player-killing. PvP solely to "hear the lamentation of the women" is not acceptable, and borders on grief-behavior. Especially when you deliberately target people who won't be a challenge to you, which is why they'd have their transponder off in the first place.

If you truly want a challenge, then you wouldn't be doing an "Elite: Dangerous Turing Test." You'd be attacking people with their transponder on, who feel confident enough in their skills to declare themselves part of the Federation of Elite Pilots.

In a perfect world there would be no NPCs, as everyone would be a PC. Due to various constrains it is not a feasible in an MMO.

Sounds like a nightmare world to me. Or at least I game I'd never play again.

 

[Crux]

This has got to be the most thinly-veiled case of pushing one's own agenda that I have ever seen.

Haha it's pretty blatant eh?

 

[Gwydion]

This has got to be the most thinly-veiled case of pushing one's own agenda that I have ever seen.

Is there a veil? I didn't notice one.

 

[Gen-Han-Solo]

Due to concerns about some aspects of adversarial and non-consensual PvP, one option mooted is a feature so that you can't tell whether a ship is a PC or an NPC ship. When I first heard about it it sounded like a novel and potentially fun idea. But after thinking about it for a while, it has some unintended consequences, potentially rather negative ones.

If you know you can hide in the crowds, you try to blend in. So whenever there are ships around you and you're hauling valuable cargo, you will try to fly like an NPC. You will try to learn AI flying and docking patterns, mining styles and routes, and mimic them. This doesn't sound like much fun, and makes zero sense from game world or RP perspective.

On the other side, people who PvP are in it for the PvP, not PvE (duh). In other words, we're in it for the thrill of the kill, to melt faces, not to zero the bits of AI bots. If I don't know whether a ship is an NPC ship or not, I will try to tease out that information so that I can play against human opponents. Perhaps by scanning the cargo for anomalies, or looking at flight patterns mentioned above. I'd much rather spend that time chasing and fighting, than playing spot the bot in space.

Obviously some will play bounty hunters who are in it for the credits alone, no matter the target is AI or PC. But I'm confident that majority of PvP players will seek out players over AI.

The above is called metagaming, gaming that is largely or entirely outside the game world. While cat and mouse games are fun, metagaming hide and seek doesn't sound much fun at all. It completely shatters the fourth wall, and gives us a constant reminder of the cogs and wheels behind the game. Instead of a multiplayer space exploration game we get a forced and incongruous Elite: Turing Test.

As such hiding PCs amongst NPCs is not a welcome feature.

The fact that you only want to PVP and not do any PVE is metagaming already. So whats the difference?

Not being able to tell the difference is a good thing.

I agree 100% there should be no way to tell from long distance if a ship is being flown by a Cmdr or an A.I robot it will make the game more difficult and a lot more FUN .
And trying to learn how to fly like an A.I. or ncp ship will be a part of the game , in the same way a lot of A.I. ships will be harmless there should be a few with ELITE status that are very difficult to destroy .

 

[Tibrogargan]

If you know you can hide in the crowds, you try to blend in. So whenever there are ships around you and you're hauling valuable cargo, you will try to fly like an NPC. You will try to learn AI flying and docking patterns, mining styles and routes, and mimic them. This doesn't sound like much fun, and makes zero sense from game world or RP perspective.

Translation: You don't want people to hide

On the other side, people who PvP are in it for the PvP, not PvE (duh). In other words, we're in it for the thrill of the kill, to melt faces, not to zero the bits of AI bots. If I don't know whether a ship is an NPC ship or not, I will try to tease out that information so that I can play against human opponents. Perhaps by scanning the cargo for anomalies, or looking at flight patterns mentioned above. I'd much rather spend that time chasing and fighting, than playing spot the bot in space.

Translation: Because you get your jollies from hurting actual people, regardless of the challenge.

As such hiding PCs amongst NPCs is not a welcome feature.

Translation: And you're lazy.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

I'd be a bit sad to never be able to see other Pilots Federation (ie. real peoples') ships on the radar.

Even now, with our locked-in Beta star systems, it's always cool to watch the hollow icons come and go, and think, "hey, these people are all playing Elite with me right now, in the same space".

Some are doing cargo runs. Some are looking for ships with WANTED status for bounties. Some are just zooming around looking for spice, risk and excitement. Some are lurking with their eye on that the canisters left over from a docking crash.

Every one of them has contributed financially to this game world. Every one is spending their limited time playing in this world alongside me. I like knowing which ones they are. They are all Elite fans... like me.