My thoughts on where things are going.

[bendover]

I still play the Game and Enjoy,I do fear that it's Turning a Big PVP Pew,Pew machine for those People who Care for nothing but the Win and are in love with the power of there own skill

 

[Glock_N_Load]

(Disclaimer - I am fully aware that this post is going to cause a LOT of hate. I can only ask that, instead of directly attacking ME for having my opinion on, which is after all, an open forum, you direct your attention to the points in my post. They are made solely in the interests of the game, which I want to enjoy.)

So I'm reading through the replies to the latest dissatisfaction post from a player who has had enough, and naturally I see the same tired responses from those who just can't resist from posting a sarcastic remark to bolster their post count (you'll make Deadly in no time!).


I also saw a few posts regarding something that deserves more discussion, that of longevity and value.


Getting your money's worth, burning out after 5000 hours of play. Are these things mutually inclusive?


I have not played the game for about 2 months. I have, according to Steam, 1310 hours of play. You can probably quadruple that, as I have been playing since early beta.


That's a lot of play.


Did I burn out? Absolutely, usually after I achieved certain goals I set myself, such as grinding my way to a Cutter. Because, y'know - shiny.


I look back at the time I have spent playing the game, and I find myself asking the question 'what do I remember, what were the stand out bit that made those thousands of hours worth playing?'


Well, let's see. Flying through my own solar system was quite nice, getting up close and personal with Saturn, yes that was quite good.


FINALLY moving up from my free Eagle to a Cobra MK III was (back then) a great achievement, and, as I suspect for a lot of early players, was a great feeling of accomplishment and freedom from the shackles of the Sidey (or Freagle).


Landing on a planet for the first time was impressive - if a bit jarring - still dislike the obvious transition from space to instance.


Exploring a few star systems and seeing things like Neutron Stars, and a couple of other things I can't really remember.


Um...


Oh, the PR stunt for the Thargoid thing was very good.


Um...


I think thats about it.


Now... what about what I DIDN'T like.


No, I am not going to sit here and list it. Far too numerous. Suffice to say that the hundreds of hours wasted on each and every 'mystery' ingame is probably the highlight. Reasons I have covered in other threads.


The point of all this? It's the original question. Did I get my money's worth? Because I have played thousands of hours?


No. No I haven't. And do you know why? Because almost nothing of which was promised, advertised and expected, has materialised. Instead, we have what has virtually become a meme for Elite - a shell of a game, a framework for a masterpiece. If Da'Vinci could just find the right paintbrush, he'd turn this blank canvas into the Great Work it sorely deserves.


Instead.... instead we get pewpew, lovage for the PvP crowd, pointless updates with no actual content for those who choose not to just fly around shooting each other.


I see discussions in beta - and here - about the fine details of weapon systems, meta builds and shield strength - from both players AND FDev. I see the ridiculous lengths people are going to to wring that last bit of DPS from their build, and then complaining to FDev that X weapon isn't right because it affect's Y strength.


And I see FDev responding.


I see groups of players arguing about wings... ganking (and how to do it right)... I see players defending the pointless playerkilling, stating it's 'part of the game'. I see spreadsheets, full of data on how to get the absolute best possible build for PvP.


I see Eve.


That, is what this game is slowly turning into. The very thing that people, who defend the way the game is being designed, were vehement in their dismissal of having anything to do with.

There are LESS rules in Elite than in Eve. Sure, there are no official corporations (thankfully), but the amount of vitriol I see spouted towards anyone who isn't 'One of Them' is ridiculous. Eve is, by it's very nature, a player-run PvP-centric game - and Elite is starting to very much emulate it.

When I first heard about the remake of Elite, I was overwhelmed with excitement, because what was promised was almost the polar opposite of Eve. And, for a while, that's how it seemed to be.

But today? Today it's all about the numbers, about the DPS, the RNG and the shield ratings. It's about who can kill who, in the most efficient way possible. It's all about time and money. Which is EXACTLY what Eve is about.

I have often remarked on these forums about the issues I perceive Elite to have - lack of content, direction etc. Now however, it's VERY clear on what direction Frontier want for Elite. They want it to become solely player driven, and they're doing it via PvP combat.

Now, I am fully aware that a certain subset of the playerbase are elated by this, and of course, they did, afterall, pay for the game the same as me. And, while I don't personally like PvP combat, it was, from the very beginning, to be part of Elite in some manner. Unfortunately, since those early days, PvP has become more and more the focus of development, tacking on one update after another, all to make ships shoot things better, and to....encourage... multiplayer gaming.

I am pretty confident in suggesting that the vast majority of players on the PC (I'm discounting console players for the time being), did NOT buy the game back in beta and the original release, just to play PvP pewpew. In fact, this was confirmed in a well-known FDev post a while back (stating there were far more non-PvP players).

It is also, in my opinion, and also an opinion shared by a significant number of other posters, largely down to the opening up of the game to console players, which has led to this direction. The (probably incorrect) view on console players, is they actually all play CoD and Battlefield. Therefore, they will buy a space combat game with lots of emphasis on shooting things, which will make Frontier lots of money. This is of course sound business. Provide a product that the majority of customers will be willing to pay for. That's great for the large influx of new players, absolutely awesome.

Unfortunately, I personally don't think they have that quite right. I have read and spoken to numerous players on XBox who are just as disgruntled with the mainly combat direction of the game in the last few months. I can't possibly say if they represent all console players - but I would surmise that if one player feels such, then there must be more.

My main concern however, is that those of us - the MAJORITY of us PC players, who were here from the early days, and are still here, are literally losing the game they paid money to bring to life. Don't forget, while the Kickstarter was not a REQUIREMENT in terms of cash, it was NEEDED to establish a desire for the game to be developed - and based on the promises of that kickstarter, we all voted with our wallets.

In closing, I would suggest that, while all long-term projects tend to deviate from their original path, I feel that Elite has not just deviated, but is now walking an entirely new path altogether. And while the inevitable outcries of 'But what about PP!' and 'Use your imagination!' (which is my personal most hated excuse - I don't pay money to imagine things, thanks.), and other such stuff will soon fill the first few pages of this thread, I would simply respond with this.

Elite was originally a space trading game. That's it. Combat was literally about self-defense from pirates. Elite Frontier introduced bounty hunting against NPC's which was an alternative method of play - which was also great.

The combat we have in today's game however has morphed, from the original styles from the original games, to PvP-centered stats and figures. We never bothered with DPS numbers in Elite: Frontier. Sure, we had weapons and shields and other nice toys to choose from. But I don't believe we sat there, with a spreadsheet or website, designing the perfect killing machine. We didn't need to because it wasn't something we needed to do.

Elite: Dangerous has lost it's way, in the eyes of the majority of it's original backers and players. This is not an arbitrary comment, it is based on the multitudes of threads and posts on this, and many other forums. It comes down to this. If this is the direction Frontier WANT this game to go, to be another Eve, with offensive and aggressive players in game and on the forums, and primarily about the combat and DPS, balance, etc... Can you please just tell us, so those of us who are tired of hoping for better things, can leave the game quietly, without the need to make the leaving posts that are apparently so disliked.

You have put in words what I have been saying/thinking for the last couple of years. I too am a kickstart commander and the game did not go in the direction I thought it would. I have been playing solo a lot of the time because it feels most like the old Elite to me. We should not have been surprised because what else is multiplayer/engineers/multicrew/wings good for if not pewpew? +rep o7

 

[fademist]

I still play the Game and Enjoy,I do fear that it's Turning a Big PVP Pew,Pew machine for those People who Care for nothing but the Win and are in love with the power of there own skill

its good we have the modes then ...so all we can happy

 

[Eidolon]

+1 rep to the OP.

Well said sir, in a very good post.

 

[Cobra1984]

I really am glad that popular opinion on this forum has turned against the sad direction this game is being taken. Hopefully, this will lead to some positive changes. Either that or it may go free to play (lol jk, maybe?)

To be fair to Frontier I was totally behind the original Multicrew idea as a drop-in drop-out, 100% reward, easy money, casual and fun feature that would balance out some of the seriousness and time consuming progression stuff already in the game.

The way it has become somewhat mangled has become a bit of a farce - and shown me that there really is a lack of ingenuity, lack of foresight and lack of thoughfulness when it comes to gameplay mechanics, right across the board. I don't feel that the mechanics and progression in the game *right now* are challenging, deep or satisfying enough to support new additional features without having to invent new additional mechanics to go along with each new feature. This must be exhausting from Frontier's point of view.

On one side you have players arguing against reducing the amount of time to acquire X credits, on the other side you have players arguing that by increasing the time to X credits - well, you are just increasing the time - not the challenge, not the difficulty, not the skill or experience or any other thing that you'd ordinarily associate with a game.

You can summarise the problem by saying that 'progression' in ED has become all about time vs reward and not risk vs reward. Those are two very different types of games satisfying two very different kinds of players, and I don't know if you can suddenly begin to turn one type of game into the other, or satisfy both player types.

Thrown into the mix is a third category of player - those who just love to fly and explore the amazing game universe. They aren't immune from the lack of mechanics associated with that task either, and again you can summarise exploration as yet another time vs reward mechanic, devoid of skill, challenge, excitement, unexpected encounters or difficulty.


So -

1. When criticisms appear along the lines of ED going "in the wrong direction" you can generally summarise them by saying that "time vs reward" is the wrong direction

2. When one of the 3 distinct player groups *does* get attention, it seemingly always is in the form of another time vs reward mechanic, or a tweaking of an existing time vs reward mechanic

3. These three player categories (there are more, these are the three I have associated with the most amount of criticism) share an animosity toward each other that isn't helpful

4. GO TO 10



Until the underlying problem is correctly identified and precisely described it will never be solved, and the problem is manifesting in 50/50 mixed Steam reviews and very very consistent complaints and criticisms going back to launch. Can't possibly be helping sales.

I have done my absolute best to contribute toward identifying and describing the problem by playing the game and reading the forums and genuinely trying to understand the criticisms. I haven't to be fair seen any other attempt to do this and I'll stick my neck out and say that I haven't seen anything from Frontier that would indicate they have either.

It is what it is, a post on the forum of a game that is absolutely unique, full of potential and yet sitting as a flawed diamond.

 

[Besensec]

Are you serious? This thread is by far not typical for what is seen on the forums (unless you pick "your" threads really selectively). It's just another echo chamber that are so popular these days.

But don't get me wrong, I found the OP well worded and constructive. It just attracted all sorts of fluff that is going into the more or less same direction, which was to be expected of course. But it's by far not representative for these forums as a whole. This thread is similarly onesided than most of the white knight threads, just the other direction. I doubt that neither will ever result in some positive reactions from FD.

What if there is another thread full of people agreeing with you, wouldn't that be an echo chamber too? We could make the experiment, you could make a thread explaining how much you like the direction in which the game is going, and pointing on the many ways in which the game is satisfactory (I sincerely think there is a legit list of satisfactory things in the game to talk about, I am not being sarcastic!). My bet is that quickly the discussion will shift towards the many ways in which the game is missing its goals.

The problem is there's ample evidence that a lot of guys *don't* get that. Multicrew proved that really amply. Like really really amply.

And to answer Golgot! That was a nice article to read! Is hard to disagree with it (and I felt targeted by it haha [noob]). But, in the context of games being sold before being made, things become more questionable. We can just remember Peter Molineux, or what is going on with Ark for example, or No Man's Sky, to understand that approaches such as Early Access, crowdfunding and pre-sales are prone to abuses. At least when I ask for a roadmap, to prevent such risk, is only to get to know if something is a placeholder or if it is final, because without it, the developer has no real pressure to finish an incomplete job that was already paid for.

Take for instance what the other user said some replies ago about a 3D printed model not being delivered. I don't know if that is true yet, and I am waiting to see more people confirming it, but if that is true, how could we wield the argument of the nature of development for that case? And we can say those are different situations, but then we can think of the forgotten Icarus Cup, or simply the lousy secret keeping that had leaked quite a few spoiler in the different story lines. Those have nothing to do with technical limitations. The criticism towards elite, at least from some of us, is sensible to the context. I think the article makes an unquestionable good point, but in the case of Frontier a clear trend have been emerging for quite a while. I used to be far more charitable when judging them, but it gets harder each month.

To be fair.....

Nice analysis!

 

[Cobra1984]

Are you serious? This thread is by far not typical for what is seen on the forums (unless you pick "your" threads really selectively). It's just another echo chamber that are so popular these days.

But don't get me wrong, I found the OP well worded and constructive. It just attracted all sorts of fluff that is going into the more or less same direction, which was to be expected of course. But it's by far not representative for these forums as a whole. This thread is similarly onesided than most of the white knight threads, just the other direction. I doubt that neither will ever result in some positive reactions from FD.

It's not representive of the entire forum or the entire subreddit either - it's representing about a third of it, and I think this is consistent over the last year.

 

[CMDR Minion Blob]

I play Elite Dangerous in VR using a Rift. Since hellov.io came out, I can watch YouTube in a window...plenty of content.

 

[biot]

I actively took part in investigating the ruins when they were first discovered, and I’ve been out to the Rift many times and helped look for a few of the beacon bases, but the constant bugs in all of it ruined it for me. And now that so much of our early ruins work gets erased with every new patch as ruins change in configuration (hopefully never again!!), yeah now I’m just reading about it all as it happens along the way. And the whole Rift thing, we still have no idea what is out there, or even what to be looking for, and to date nothing interesting has been found without a CG or engineer telling us where to go to find newly implemented content, so “eh”.

Honestly though, no I’m not too eager about the unfolding storyline, because I see where it’s all heading: a big war, either between human factions or with aliens or even both. Which means more combat content and updates. Which means not much for me to enjoy, sadly. I have the strange feeling that I’ll be skipping S3 the way things look like they are headed.

I agree with every word of this. The bugs and "reality shifts" in those story lines is a real kick in the nethers, especially since those stories tend to demand some serious time investment. That just sucks the joy out of it.

 

[akaliel]

Well I for one have found this thread to be a good and interesting read. There's just one thing I'd love to know from the folks who are taking long breaks away from the game -

Are you not gripped on the edge of your seat by the unfolding storyline? How can you possibly take a break?

Because it's happening so slowly and there's nothing to do until the unfolding actually begins. Until there's some way to engage with the aliens my Anaconda is perfectly fine sitting in the garage. Our first hints of alien aggression were a year ago. Got bored of holding onto my seat, those Witcher 3 expansions aren't going to finish themselves. Let me know when there's something to do.

 

[Manticore]

Whether I care for your opinion or not is irrelevant when I see this:

My thoughts on where things are going.

Thank you so much for making it clear that this is your opinion and you avoid the whole "we think" (which "we" don't) approach.

Thank you. Respect.

 

[Blackcompany]

I completely agree. And yet time and time again these cretins kill franchise after franchise because they just want quick sales and big headlines, but ultimately leave no real substance under the hood.

The Day of Reckoning is coming for the bean counters, and those that listen to them. The ones at Frontier. The ones everywhere in the AAA development side.

I was at a Target the other day. First time in a while. They used to have a whole aisle of XBOX games on one side, and PS games on the other. Now, its one aisle, period. XBOX, PS and Nintendo games share shelf space on that SINGLE aisle. They didnt even have any console boxes or controllers in stock.

And now I have seen it one place, I keep seeing it: The slow decline of physical shelf space, and thus purchases, of AAA video games by their REAL money makers, the retailers. See, you arent going to make $100 million on most games from THRU sales (to consumers). To make those types of investments back, you NEED physical retailers to buy thousands of copies world wide, to stock shelves. For THAT to happen, retails need to anticipate that your game WILL sell.

But because of the focus on soulless grind and reskinning the same game annually, those anticipated sales are in decline. And so is shelf space. Hopefully, this heralds the doom of the AAA gaming industry and the bean counters and Suits that came with it. I can dream.

On Topic: Rep the OP. Well said, sir. I am in the same boat now. Wanting the game I paid for, and realizing...its not coming.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Very well said OP.

I actively took part in investigating the ruins when they were first discovered, and I’ve been out to the Rift many times and helped look for a few of the beacon bases, but the constant bugs in all of it ruined it for me. And now that so much of our early ruins work gets erased with every new patch as ruins change in configuration (hopefully never again!!), yeah now I’m just reading about it all as it happens along the way. And the whole Rift thing, we still have no idea what is out there, or even what to be looking for, and to date nothing interesting has been found without a CG or engineer telling us where to go to find newly implemented content, so “eh”.

Honestly though, no I’m not too eager about the unfolding storyline, because I see where it’s all heading: a big war, either between human factions or with aliens or even both. Which means more combat content and updates. Which means not much for me to enjoy, sadly. I have the strange feeling that I’ll be skipping S3 the way things look like they are headed.

Mengy all of the things you've said in this thread I agree with.

Tried to get involved last year only to find that the "discoveries" weren't all they were cracked upto be...there was never anything to be found, just activated at certain times to help move their own agenda forward with the players tagging along fer the ride best we could. The more I got into it, the less impressed I became with frontier...without a doubt when tracing back to where the rot started, it was the formidine rift fiasco.

After that, the spark of enthusiasm faded to the point where I stopped caring, and just follow the forums outta morbid curiosity in the very slim hope that things will improve. When I learned what 2.3 was, I gave up entirely and haven't played at all since. Giving them till 2.4 before I vanish utterly...or be impressed enough to play again...but 2.4 is the cut off point where that decision is taken.

With the mess Ive seen so far in season two, they gonna have to pull something special outta the hat otherwise...

The current theme has been pew pew, building upto all out war and alien invasion...somehow I cant see exploration taking any priorities in there anywhere, just more of the same...bla bla bla whatever losing interest here ^

Verminstar all of the things you have said I also agree with.

Can't really add much more to the thread other than I agree with the Op, Mengy, and verminstar.

The game has ceased being rewarding enough to warrant spending my time on.

In another thread I said this season shouldn't have been called Elite Dangerous: Horizons, but Elite Dangerous: Explosions - because season 2 thus far has been mostly about combat. Exploration has been all but stagnant since release (as far as things to do are concerned - eye candy is not content).

I've had a play with 2.3 beta. I've multicrewed up one evening. I normally play the game by myself though, so multicrew isn't my bag. The avatar creator I also don't care about - it'll be one of those use-once features then forget about it.

Back to the main point - I am at the point of dread when pressing PLAY on the launcher. Up the game loads, but there's simply nothing compelling I want to do any more. Load up the missions board - same old collection of missions, nothing interesting to spend time on. Same with passenger missions. 'I could go out exploring agai'.... ugh no, there's only so much one can take staring at the hyperspace Instance Loading Screen for the N thousandth time - then the same old honk'n'scan.

'I could go exploring and search for volcanism'... ugh no, other than Mk.1 Eyeball there are no in-game tools to help find areas of interest, despite some good ideas having been suggested for ages now. And I am not going to spend hours and hours scouring a planet surface looking for volcanism.

'I could trade'... yeah no. Move The Thing, To The Other Thing - no thanks.

'I could mine'... kill me now.

'I could bounty hunt'... been there done that - started out as a bounty hunter. It's just mindless pewpew.

And it goes on and on.

Okay so last night I loaded the main game, because I had been theorycrafting smaller ships in the 2.3 beta and wanted to purchase an iEagle in the live game in order to copy the thing I made in beta. I had to jump to a few different star systems in order to obtain the parts I wanted to fit as the station which sells the iEagle didn't have all the modules available to it.

After I had finished that, on impulse, I bought an Imperial Clipper because it'd been a while since I last had one and I liked them. Same thing as the iEagle, had to jump around a few systems.

Then it hit me. In order to bring the iEagle and Clipper up to some Engineered standard, I'd have to take them over to the various different Engineers I have access to. I'd have to do that twice, just to get those ships up to the standard I desired.

It was then that I simply exited the game.

I've all but halted development of Captain's Log.

Nowadays I've also all but halted most of my interactions on these forums - this thread caught my eye and a few people have been saying similar things to what's been going on in my head.

To those who say this is a bad thread or it's moaning for nothing - I say that FDEV needs negative feedback just as much - if not even more - than they need positive feedback.

Anyway - I've completely stopped the endless "maybe the next patch will be the one that brings me back into the game" thinking. Now it's just a case of observing what the new release does. I'll look in to see what 2.4 brings, but I'm not expecting anything compelling.

 

[VR Golgot]

To be fair to Frontier I was totally behind the original Multicrew idea as a drop-in drop-out, 100% reward, easy money, casual and fun feature that would balance out some of the seriousness and time consuming progression stuff already in the game.

The way it has become somewhat mangled has become a bit of a farce - and shown me that there really is a lack of ingenuity, lack of foresight and lack of thoughfulness when it comes to gameplay mechanics, right across the board. I don't feel that the mechanics and progression in the game *right now* are challenging, deep or satisfying enough to support new additional features without having to invent new additional mechanics to go along with each new feature. This must be exhausting from Frontier's point of view.

On one side you have players arguing against reducing the amount of time to acquire X credits, on the other side you have players arguing that by increasing the time to X credits - well, you are just increasing the time - not the challenge, not the difficulty, not the skill or experience or any other thing that you'd ordinarily associate with a game.

You can summarise the problem by saying that 'progression' in ED has become all about time vs reward and not risk vs reward. Those are two very different types of games satisfying two very different kinds of players, and I don't know if you can suddenly begin to turn one type of game into the other, or satisfy both player types.

Thrown into the mix is a third category of player - those who just love to fly and explore the amazing game universe. They aren't immune from the lack of mechanics associated with that task either, and again you can summarise exploration as yet another time vs reward mechanic, devoid of skill, challenge, excitement, unexpected encounters or difficulty.


So -

1. When criticisms appear along the lines of ED going "in the wrong direction" you can generally summarise them by saying that "time vs reward" is the wrong direction

2. When one of the 3 distinct player groups *does* get attention, it seemingly always is in the form of another time vs reward mechanic, or a tweaking of an existing time vs reward mechanic

3. These three player categories (there are more, these are the three I have associated with the most amount of criticism) share an animosity toward each other that isn't helpful

4. GO TO 10



Until the underlying problem is correctly identified and precisely described it will never be solved, and the problem is manifesting in 50/50 mixed Steam reviews and very very consistent complaints and criticisms going back to launch. Can't possibly be helping sales.

I have done my absolute best to contribute toward identifying and describing the problem by playing the game and reading the forums and genuinely trying to understand the criticisms. I haven't to be fair seen any other attempt to do this and I'll stick my neck out and say that I haven't seen anything from Frontier that would indicate they have either.

It is what it is, a post on the forum of a game that is absolutely unique, full of potential and yet sitting as a flawed diamond.

I like your breakdown of player archetypes, and agree there's an over emphasis on time (read grind) in the gameplay to date - if I'm interpreting you correctly. I think there's an underlying issue here than none of our well-meaning content suggestions can solve though. FDev is dedicated to an expansion model to fund continued dev (hence new mechanics take precedence over filling out the old). We all know this but so many people seem to ignore its significance. The deep content that nigh all of us desire cannot come quickly in this scenario. Their dev capacity is what it is, and it's focused where it is. (I disagree with your ingenuity and resourcefulness claim on this incidentally, I suspect they're actually being fairly imaginative with the capacity they've got. The claim would be better aimed at those who designed the business model...)

They have at least voiced a desire to change the Season model. Let us see what that brings. I suspect that even if we get significant structural change (and even, say, more dev capacity brought about by a successful '3.0' launch and the multi-platform audience), the main solution will still be, ironically, time

And to answer Golgot! That was a nice article to read! Is hard to disagree with it (and I felt targeted by it haha [noob]). But, in the context of games being sold before being made, things become more questionable. We can just remember Peter Molineux, or what is going on with Ark for example, or No Man's Sky, to understand that approaches such as Early Access, crowdfunding and pre-sales are prone to abuses. At least when I ask for a roadmap, to prevent such risk, is only to get to know if something is a placeholder or if it is final, because without it, the developer has no real pressure to finish an incomplete job that was already paid for.

Take for instance what the other user said some replies ago about a 3D printed model not being delivered. I don't know if that is true yet, and I am waiting to see more people confirming it, but if that is true, how could we wield the argument of the nature of development for that case? And we can say those are different situations, but then we can think of the forgotten Icarus Cup, or simply the lousy secret keeping that had leaked quite a few spoiler in the different story lines. Those have nothing to do with technical limitations. The criticism towards elite, at least from some of us, is sensible to the context. I think the article makes an unquestionable good point, but in the case of Frontier a clear trend have been emerging for quite a while. I used to be far more charitable when judging them, but it gets harder each month.

Wasn't targeting you personally B . (Although yeah I do feel you should give the caveat more weight than you do on MC ).

I agree that early access has changed the landscape, and from a consumer rights point of view it's getting really tricky. Because the fact of the matter is we're just seeing stuff that's always been (failed experiments, deadlines and tech walls being hit, features having to be cut etc). Those things are deeply unlikely to change. They're the nature of artistic projects, the nature of the complex code that games require, and budget calls are the nature of the business beast. Previously we've seen the end result, not the process. Only the Molyneuxs of this world touted their aspirational concepts aloud, most trad teams stuck to images and outlines.

The problem is, your call for a roadmap doesn't change the above realities. At all. They will still happen. Public roadmaps are a relatively new invention, and it's just possible they're a bad one. (Or at least, one that should be kept vague enough that they're attainable. And that is essentially what FDev did. The roadmap was the incredibly vague bit on the website. The snippet in the 6 hours vid was the dev's letting us into what they were thinking, making it clear that it wasn't a promise of delivery. If they can't even do that, they can't really share any of their brainstorming with us all, other than most tenuous of allusions. So be it :/).

To stretch it to absurdity: If we as a consumer base insist the above setbacks don't happen, are removed from the equation, we're essentially insisting that games never try anything new. Because only the tried and tested comes anywhere close to being completely 'roadmappable' or assured.

(On the 3D printed models, that's a straight up business aspect for me. And yep, if true, that should absolutely be honoured, and those affected should band together and take the necessary action).

 

[Kaltern]

Then it hit me. In order to bring the iEagle and Clipper up to some Engineered standard, I'd have to take them over to the various different Engineers I have access to. I'd have to do that twice, just to get those ships up to the standard I desired.

It was then that I simply exited the game.

I've all but halted development of Captain's Log.

Nowadays I've also all but halted most of my interactions on these forums - this thread caught my eye and a few people have been saying similar things to what's been going on in my head.

This saddens me incredibly. People like you MADE this game. I never personally used your app, purely because I didn't do enough to warrant it, but I do remember at least trying it.

When developers of respected 3rd party tools decide that enough is enough, surely THAT should at least raise a prickle of alarm at Frontier? I don't want to see people's passion for the game completely deleted because the passion they put into their own tools, for NO profit, is virtually wasted because of the direction Frontier have chosen to go.

This one post has really hit home just how bad things really are. How many other tools have been abandoned, not because they were never used - but because there isn't much point?

I don't give rep. But I will in this case as a tribute to your hard work and dedication to the game, and trying to make it a better place. o7

 

[Vandaahl]

Wow that's really bad, I thought they were taking the urine over the 'Art' book, which finally appeared, but this is a whole new level of ' we have your money so suck it up'.

It says delivery March 2014 don't you have a legal case on this for a refund?

For anyone not familiar with the kickstarter deals https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

check out the comments while you're there.

My thought as well. If you still haven't got what you've paid after backing a few thousand quid, thats plain thievery.

 

[Kaltern]

My thought as well. If you still haven't got what you've paid after backing a few thousand quid, thats plain thievery.

I look forward to the usual defense posts... 'these things take time', 'there was never a time specified', 'you've played for 10,000 hours and you're complaining about a plastic toy?'

My advice? Set to ignore anyone who posts anything like the above - and is actually serious. They're not worthy of your time.

 

[NeilF]

(Disclaimer - I am fully aware that this post is going to cause a LOT of hate. I can only ask that, instead of directly attacking ME for having my opinion on, which is after all, an open forum, you direct your attention to the points in my post. They are made solely in the interests of the game, which I want to enjoy.)

So I'm reading through the replies to the latest dissatisfaction post from a player who has had enough, and naturally I see the same tired responses from those who just can't resist from posting a sarcastic remark to bolster their post count (you'll make Deadly in no time!).


I also saw a few posts regarding something that deserves more discussion, that of longevity and value.


Getting your money's worth, burning out after 5000 hours of play. Are these things mutually inclusive?


I have not played the game for about 2 months. I have, according to Steam, 1310 hours of play. You can probably quadruple that, as I have been playing since early beta.


That's a lot of play.

Spoiler

Did I burn out? Absolutely, usually after I achieved certain goals I set myself, such as grinding my way to a Cutter. Because, y'know - shiny.


I look back at the time I have spent playing the game, and I find myself asking the question 'what do I remember, what were the stand out bit that made those thousands of hours worth playing?'


Well, let's see. Flying through my own solar system was quite nice, getting up close and personal with Saturn, yes that was quite good.


FINALLY moving up from my free Eagle to a Cobra MK III was (back then) a great achievement, and, as I suspect for a lot of early players, was a great feeling of accomplishment and freedom from the shackles of the Sidey (or Freagle).


Landing on a planet for the first time was impressive - if a bit jarring - still dislike the obvious transition from space to instance.


Exploring a few star systems and seeing things like Neutron Stars, and a couple of other things I can't really remember.


Um...


Oh, the PR stunt for the Thargoid thing was very good.


Um...


I think thats about it.


Now... what about what I DIDN'T like.


No, I am not going to sit here and list it. Far too numerous. Suffice to say that the hundreds of hours wasted on each and every 'mystery' ingame is probably the highlight. Reasons I have covered in other threads.


The point of all this? It's the original question. Did I get my money's worth? Because I have played thousands of hours?


No. No I haven't. And do you know why? Because almost nothing of which was promised, advertised and expected, has materialised. Instead, we have what has virtually become a meme for Elite - a shell of a game, a framework for a masterpiece. If Da'Vinci could just find the right paintbrush, he'd turn this blank canvas into the Great Work it sorely deserves.


Instead.... instead we get pewpew, lovage for the PvP crowd, pointless updates with no actual content for those who choose not to just fly around shooting each other.


I see discussions in beta - and here - about the fine details of weapon systems, meta builds and shield strength - from both players AND FDev. I see the ridiculous lengths people are going to to wring that last bit of DPS from their build, and then complaining to FDev that X weapon isn't right because it affect's Y strength.


And I see FDev responding.


I see groups of players arguing about wings... ganking (and how to do it right)... I see players defending the pointless playerkilling, stating it's 'part of the game'. I see spreadsheets, full of data on how to get the absolute best possible build for PvP.


I see Eve.


That, is what this game is slowly turning into. The very thing that people, who defend the way the game is being designed, were vehement in their dismissal of having anything to do with.

There are LESS rules in Elite than in Eve. Sure, there are no official corporations (thankfully), but the amount of vitriol I see spouted towards anyone who isn't 'One of Them' is ridiculous. Eve is, by it's very nature, a player-run PvP-centric game - and Elite is starting to very much emulate it.

When I first heard about the remake of Elite, I was overwhelmed with excitement, because what was promised was almost the polar opposite of Eve. And, for a while, that's how it seemed to be.

But today? Today it's all about the numbers, about the DPS, the RNG and the shield ratings. It's about who can kill who, in the most efficient way possible. It's all about time and money. Which is EXACTLY what Eve is about.

I have often remarked on these forums about the issues I perceive Elite to have - lack of content, direction etc. Now however, it's VERY clear on what direction Frontier want for Elite. They want it to become solely player driven, and they're doing it via PvP combat.

Now, I am fully aware that a certain subset of the playerbase are elated by this, and of course, they did, afterall, pay for the game the same as me. And, while I don't personally like PvP combat, it was, from the very beginning, to be part of Elite in some manner. Unfortunately, since those early days, PvP has become more and more the focus of development, tacking on one update after another, all to make ships shoot things better, and to....encourage... multiplayer gaming.

I am pretty confident in suggesting that the vast majority of players on the PC (I'm discounting console players for the time being), did NOT buy the game back in beta and the original release, just to play PvP pewpew. In fact, this was confirmed in a well-known FDev post a while back (stating there were far more non-PvP players).

It is also, in my opinion, and also an opinion shared by a significant number of other posters, largely down to the opening up of the game to console players, which has led to this direction. The (probably incorrect) view on console players, is they actually all play CoD and Battlefield. Therefore, they will buy a space combat game with lots of emphasis on shooting things, which will make Frontier lots of money. This is of course sound business. Provide a product that the majority of customers will be willing to pay for. That's great for the large influx of new players, absolutely awesome.

Unfortunately, I personally don't think they have that quite right. I have read and spoken to numerous players on XBox who are just as disgruntled with the mainly combat direction of the game in the last few months. I can't possibly say if they represent all console players - but I would surmise that if one player feels such, then there must be more.

My main concern however, is that those of us - the MAJORITY of us PC players, who were here from the early days, and are still here, are literally losing the game they paid money to bring to life. Don't forget, while the Kickstarter was not a REQUIREMENT in terms of cash, it was NEEDED to establish a desire for the game to be developed - and based on the promises of that kickstarter, we all voted with our wallets.

In closing, I would suggest that, while all long-term projects tend to deviate from their original path, I feel that Elite has not just deviated, but is now walking an entirely new path altogether. And while the inevitable outcries of 'But what about PP!' and 'Use your imagination!' (which is my personal most hated excuse - I don't pay money to imagine things, thanks.), and other such stuff will soon fill the first few pages of this thread, I would simply respond with this.

Elite was originally a space trading game. That's it. Combat was literally about self-defense from pirates. Elite Frontier introduced bounty hunting against NPC's which was an alternative method of play - which was also great.

The combat we have in today's game however has morphed, from the original styles from the original games, to PvP-centered stats and figures. We never bothered with DPS numbers in Elite: Frontier. Sure, we had weapons and shields and other nice toys to choose from. But I don't believe we sat there, with a spreadsheet or website, designing the perfect killing machine. We didn't need to because it wasn't something we needed to do.

Elite: Dangerous has lost it's way, in the eyes of the majority of it's original backers and players. This is not an arbitrary comment, it is based on the multitudes of threads and posts on this, and many other forums. It comes down to this. If this is the direction Frontier WANT this game to go, to be another Eve, with offensive and aggressive players in game and on the forums, and primarily about the combat and DPS, balance, etc... Can you please just tell us, so those of us who are tired of hoping for better things, can leave the game quietly, without the need to make the leaving posts that are apparently so disliked.

I've used this analogy/quote a few times now on this forum, but I think it sums up so very much of the content we've been given. This is an email I sent to some friends when asteroid bases were finally announced...

These are the hub of all the new piracy mechanics where you can build up a piracy reputation and inturn gain access to these hidden nefarious location. You can then obtain new challenging piracy based missions and access to more rewarding black markets etc.

Oh! I misread the release notes... They're just like normal stations...

ie: Nothing gameplay wise. Nothing deeper and more meaningful... Just another bolt on rebadge.


For me so very much content (& therefore development effort) has:-
...been on simple gameplay just rebadging what's already there.
...been questionable in design/outcome. eg: CQC? All that effort that could have gone into the core gameplay/mechanics? And what happened to Powerplay? What a convoluted miss!
...not really tried to progress and deepen the gameplay/mechanics. Consider CGs, mining, piracy, exploration and trading, and how little has been done for them in 2+ years?


And the most recently, multicrew just seems to be another simplistic bolt-on mechanic again instead of actually trying to move 2+yr old mechanics and gameplay actually forwards (at last)...

 

[Vandaahl]

I look forward to the usual defense posts... 'these things take time', 'there was never a time specified', 'you've played for 10,000 hours and you're complaining about a plastic toy?'

My advice? Set to ignore anyone who posts anything like the above - and is actually serious. They're not worthy of your time.

What defensive posts are you talking about? Quote me one reply of someone defending FD for not delivering what was promised to kickstarter backers paying thousands of pounds....

 

[Heater]

Very well put OP +1