My thoughts on where things are going.

[CMDR Cylixx]

Adding my traffic, only arrived 2 months before Horizons but I've played this to death, OP sure hit them feels.

Mengy's quote of Dan Davies' outline of the goals and mechanics of exploration (bottom, page 5) really makes me confused as to what the hell I have been playing.

I want to play that game. Not this.

 

[El Grillo]

This is possibly the worst game for PVP that you could think of. You can easily combat log, the instancing is terrible etc. But you think the problem is that frontier have been focussing too much on PVP???
They have added stuff to combat, presumably because that's the only part of the game that has any depth or interest to it (and even then it doesn't have enough).

I would love them to add depth to the other elements of the game, trading & exploration. I don't see many suggestions from people as to how they'd do this - except making the markets actual real dynamic player markets, where you can trade things that are actually functional as opposed to meaningless 'xxxx pointless commodity'. I am genuinely fascinated by what all the trading and exploration people want. Because I would probably enjoy it too.

 

[IamMe]

This is possibly the worst game for PVP that you could think of. You can easily combat log, the instancing is terrible etc. But you think the problem is that frontier have been focussing too much on PVP???
They have added stuff to combat, presumably because that's the only part of the game that has any depth or interest to it (and even then it doesn't have enough).

I would love them to add depth to the other elements of the game, trading & exploration. I don't see many suggestions from people as to how they'd do this - except making the markets actual real dynamic player markets, where you can trade things that are actually functional as opposed to meaningless 'xxxx pointless commodity'. I am genuinely fascinated by what all the trading and exploration people want. Because I would probably enjoy it too.

I have exploration suggestion; add atmo planets and legs!
Joke aside for me perfect exploration would be;
Exploring deep space and facing dangers like random spawn npc, alien or space itself with damage result so i need to collect materials from nearby planets to repair ship, on those planets we may find old abandoned outposts and use thir materials to repair ship. So we get a little tense when jumping in new system.
A bit of survival in space!

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

Or the absolute opposite. Be open, transparent, do dev updates weekly, show the community what they're working on.. If something is complex, have someone from the design team tell the community why.. Open door policy, and absolute 1 to 1 relationships between design team and community will help. The only time it doesn't work is if you deliberately want to hide stuff because of fear of outrage.. but.. if nothing to hide, this symbiotic relationship is far more productive and better for PR than cloak 'n' dagger, secrecy, silence and bitter forum posting.

So.. Sure stuff will be cut out.. and stuff will be dropped, and stuff just cannot be done.. we get that. That's why I PREFER communication, and better information on what is being worked on and why. That way we can be on the devs side, than seemingly against them.

You missed the part where players pick every statement apart so it fits the narrative they want/support. Honestly players for the most part don't even know what's good for the game because they are too emotionally invested. Under promise and over deliver is what I prefer.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

The DDF (Design Discussion Forum) is full of ideas on how to improve E: D. I suppose this thread doesn't need ideas - they fall on deaf ears anyway IMHO. The real question is, do they realise the sad state of the game? So far what I have seen on the streams from Sandro and some from DB doesn't indicate that. Maybe they think all is ok and we have EXCITING and FASCINATING game with a PLETHORA of content? With THE STORY keeping us ON THE EDGE (since gamescom 1 year ago)?. I wouldn't be much surprised, because watching DB interviews it seems he is "excited" for all the wrong things. Tying passenger missions to BGS springs to mind, while they're actually a specific type of cargo, needed to be transported on specific ships (if you want the highest cabin class ofc). If CEO is disconnected from the actual state of the product and is "flying casually" from time to time, he will not see what is wrong with the game. And regarding our lead designer, he has proven on a few ocassions that his understanding of the game is as shallow as E: D itself. Sorry, I can't stomach this. Either way he is also disconnected because he is working on a future content and can't be bothered with our pathetic whining ;-) [c'mon, I have to give him at least some benefit of the doubt], or there is no future content, and they are making things up on the fly, seeing as old Elite's features are almost all covered now in E: D.

There are community managers here, they are not doing stellar jobs with managing crisises like the recent dissent overly well. They should communicate that to their superiors if its over their heads, and we should see a statement from the CEO himself on the state of things. If they realise the state the game is in. Or, they are fully aware, there is nothing to be done to salvage that, and we're destined to vegetation on current bolt-ons. Like I said many times before, we will see it soon. 2017 will be "make it or break it" for me in this game. I'm not saying E: D is doomed - it's far from it because there are LOTS of people who enjoy the current shallow mechanics. Just flying with a low-cost cobra doing missions, not engaging in PvP, not risking big ship's rebuy, pretending to explore and "making up their own stories" while watching netflix on the way to Colonia etc. A simpleton's life ;-) Low cost means no worries, not engaging in PvP means no engineering grind, enjoying current mechanics means no burnout. Maybe that's the "correct" way to play current iteration of Elite, but I think my time is better spent elsewhere. Because for example I want to "blaze my own trail" with a Cutter, and jumping cleanly in the cutter a few times results in huge ship integrity costs. Which makes you work for the fleet maintenance or you will eventually run out of money for rebuys. And they're nerfing the "exploits". Putting another time wall in the game. Sigh.

All we can do is wait for the 2.4 and 3.0 news. Then and only then we will know where we stand. For now, we're left to rot in the dark depressive soup of our own speculations and observations. And maybe that is what makes it so hard.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

To be fair to Frontier I was totally behind the original Multicrew idea as a drop-in drop-out, 100% reward, easy money, casual and fun feature that would balance out some of the seriousness and time consuming progression stuff already in the game.

The way it has become somewhat mangled has become a bit of a farce - and shown me that there really is a lack of ingenuity, lack of foresight and lack of thoughfulness when it comes to gameplay mechanics, right across the board. I don't feel that the mechanics and progression in the game *right now* are challenging, deep or satisfying enough to support new additional features without having to invent new additional mechanics to go along with each new feature. This must be exhausting from Frontier's point of view.

On one side you have players arguing against reducing the amount of time to acquire X credits, on the other side you have players arguing that by increasing the time to X credits - well, you are just increasing the time - not the challenge, not the difficulty, not the skill or experience or any other thing that you'd ordinarily associate with a game.

You can summarise the problem by saying that 'progression' in ED has become all about time vs reward and not risk vs reward. Those are two very different types of games satisfying two very different kinds of players, and I don't know if you can suddenly begin to turn one type of game into the other, or satisfy both player types.

Thrown into the mix is a third category of player - those who just love to fly and explore the amazing game universe. They aren't immune from the lack of mechanics associated with that task either, and again you can summarise exploration as yet another time vs reward mechanic, devoid of skill, challenge, excitement, unexpected encounters or difficulty.


So -

1. When criticisms appear along the lines of ED going "in the wrong direction" you can generally summarise them by saying that "time vs reward" is the wrong direction

2. When one of the 3 distinct player groups *does* get attention, it seemingly always is in the form of another time vs reward mechanic, or a tweaking of an existing time vs reward mechanic

3. These three player categories (there are more, these are the three I have associated with the most amount of criticism) share an animosity toward each other that isn't helpful

4. GO TO 10



Until the underlying problem is correctly identified and precisely described it will never be solved, and the problem is manifesting in 50/50 mixed Steam reviews and very very consistent complaints and criticisms going back to launch. Can't possibly be helping sales.

I have done my absolute best to contribute toward identifying and describing the problem by playing the game and reading the forums and genuinely trying to understand the criticisms. I haven't to be fair seen any other attempt to do this and I'll stick my neck out and say that I haven't seen anything from Frontier that would indicate they have either.

It is what it is, a post on the forum of a game that is absolutely unique, full of potential and yet sitting as a flawed diamond.

We get time-reward because there is a large group of people who scream any time risk-reward is mentioned. This is the reason why we have gimped A.I., bloated shields and credits rain from the sky (unless you are a miner).

 

[NMS]

The DDF (Design Discussion Forum) is full of ideas on how to improve E: D. I suppose this thread doesn't need ideas - they fall on deaf ears anyway IMHO. The real question is, do they realise the sad state of the game? So far what I have seen on the streams from Sandro and some from DB doesn't indicate that. Maybe they think all is ok and we have EXCITING and FASCINATING game with a PLETHORA of content? With THE STORY keeping us ON THE EDGE (since gamescom 1 year ago)?. I wouldn't be much surprised, because watching DB interviews it seems he is "excited" for all the wrong things. Tying passenger missions to BGS springs to mind, while they're actually a specific type of cargo, needed to be transported on specific ships (if you want the highest cabin class ofc). If CEO is disconnected from the actual state of the product and is "flying casually" from time to time, he will not see what is wrong with the game. And regarding our lead designer, he has proven on a few ocassions that his understanding of the game is as shallow as E: D itself. Sorry, I can't stomach this. Either way he is also disconnected because he is working on a future content and can't be bothered with our pathetic whining ;-) [c'mon, I have to give him at least some benefit of the doubt], or there is no future content, and they are making things up on the fly, seeing as old Elite's features are almost all covered now in E: D.

There are community managers here, they are not doing stellar jobs with managing crisises like the recent dissent overly well. They should communicate that to their superiors if its over their heads, and we should see a statement from the CEO himself on the state of things. If they realise the state the game is in. Or, they are fully aware, there is nothing to be done to salvage that, and we're destined to vegetation on current bolt-ons. Like I said many times before, we will see it soon. 2017 will be "make it or break it" for me in this game. I'm not saying E: D is doomed - it's far from it because there are LOTS of people who enjoy the current shallow mechanics. Just flying with a low-cost cobra doing missions, not engaging in PvP, not risking big ship's rebuy, pretending to explore and "making up their own stories" while watching netflix on the way to Colonia etc. A simpleton's life ;-) Low cost means no worries, not engaging in PvP means no engineering grind, enjoying current mechanics means no burnout. Maybe that's the "correct" way to play current iteration of Elite, but I think my time is better spent elsewhere. Because for example I want to "blaze my own trail" with a Cutter, and jumping cleanly in the cutter a few times results in huge ship integrity costs. Which makes you work for the fleet maintenance or you will eventually run out of money for rebuys. And they're nerfing the "exploits". Putting another time wall in the game. Sigh.

All we can do is wait for the 2.4 and 3.0 news. Then and only then we will know where we stand. For now, we're left to rot in the dark depressive soup of our own speculations and observations. And maybe that is what makes it so hard.

+1 Agree

Especially this part, which for me is the worst in ED:

"...So far what I have seen on the streams from Sandro and some from DB doesn't indicate that. Maybe they think all is ok and we have EXCITING and FASCINATING game with a PLETHORA of content? With THE STORY keeping us ON THE EDGE (since gamescom 1 year ago)?. I wouldn't be much surprised, because watching DB interviews it seems he is "excited" for all the wrong things. Tying passenger missions to BGS springs to mind, while they're actually a specific type of cargo, needed to be transported on specific ships (if you want the highest cabin class ofc). If CEO is disconnected from the actual state of the product and is "flying casually" from time to time, he will not see what is wrong with the game. "

 

[Kaltern]

One thing to note, is there is no way anyone from Frontier will ever come on camera, admit in interview or post on this forum, that they believe there is any kind of issue at all - that would be a PR disaster. It's bad enough for them that people like me will post my opinions of their game that I spent money on, and helped make a reality, but for them to admit even slightly that they're listening to these posts, would immediately cause half the forum to latch on like a hungry tick and drain them for every last piece of possibility they have left.

NO, what they need to do is SOMETHING positive, just throw something out there that will make me, and others with my opinions, think 'mmm yes, they're listening and there's hope.

Frontier have done neither, and I suspect they never will. But, only a fool would ignore a lot of negative criticism, low Steam ratings, and fairly low ratings on PC Metacritic (oddly, the Xbox verision is currently at 7.2, which is reasonable... I can't POSSIBLY imagine why that is...), and so I would like to think they're holding crisis meetings, and trying to desperately find ways of keeping their core groups from haemorrhaging players more than they already are.

Too many people here are dimissing the reviews on Steam. But Steam is a very good cross-representation of players, and should never be completely ignored.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

One thing to note, is there is no way anyone from Frontier will ever come on camera, admit in interview or post on this forum, that they believe there is any kind of issue at all - that would be a PR disaster. It's bad enough for them that people like me will post my opinions of their game that I spent money on, and helped make a reality, but for them to admit even slightly that they're listening to these posts, would immediately cause half the forum to latch on like a hungry tick and drain them for every last piece of possibility they have left.

Can't agree here, remembering how Egosoft handled the absolute disaster that was X-Rebirth's launch. The CEO took to steam forums and apologized, they promised they won't abandon the game and will patch the issues. They also threw in the first dlc for free to all people who have bought the game on release (now it's paid). Fast forward 2 years and now they're selling second DLC Home of Light with added content, developing VR for X-Rebirth (yes!) and announced that X4 is in the works. So it can be done. And the amount of hate back then was similar to NMS, but they got it under control. I know because I preordered Rebirth ;-) and I know how fast first updates arrived, and then The Teladi Outpost (the DLC). It can be handled, but in order for it to be handled, you need to acknowledge that you have a problem.

 

[Blackcompany]

Could you please post the memo you got from FD that confirms this? It seems like you have some inside information that no-one else in this thread is aware of.

Do you work for them (FD or the bean-counters)?

If you could elaborate and fill in the details around your facts that would be great.

Read the WHOLE post. Writing on the wall.

Studios closing industry wide every year.

Retailers shrinking shelf space for games.

GameStop shareholders in a near panic.

AAA publishers depend on retailers to make those enormous $100 million investment numbers back. As retailers buy fewer and fewer games...It's coming, unless something changes.

- - - Updated - - -

Can't agree here, remembering how Egosoft handled the absolute disaster that was X-Rebirth's launch. The CEO took to steam forums and apologized, they promised they won't abandon the game and will patch the issues. They also threw in the first dlc for free to all people who have bought the game on release (now it's paid). Fast forward 2 years and now they're selling second DLC Home of Light with added content, developing VR for X-Rebirth (yes!) and announced that X4 is in the works. So it can be done. And the amount of hate back then was similar to NMS, but they got it under control. I know because I preordered Rebirth ;-) and I know how fast first updates arrived, and then The Teladi Outpost (the DLC). It can be handled, but in order for it to be handled, you need to acknowledge that you have a problem.

If the X games only had Elites flight model, I could say a permanent farewell to ED...

 

[NeilF]

...and credits rain from the sky (unless you are a miner).

Pssst! Try PvP piracy! You'll often be losing money!

Piracy - Another example of mechanics that have hardly been touched in 2yrs, which are unfit for purpose, no where as involved and rewarding as they should and could be, and which has gone ignored by FD. I recall the livestream where DB was asked, 'When is priacy going to get improved...' And his look came across as confusion to me, and his response was long the lines of, 2hat else could you want? That worried me alot! But it does explain so much of what we're instead seeing being released

 

[DoctorDanny]

I doubt there's anything like crisis meetings at FD offices. I feel that they've attained their Return of Investment on E : D and are simply moving on to the next project.
A skeleton crew appears to remain working on E : D as witnessed by the glacial development speed of season 2.

All this talk about development for the next ten years and the hoax that was the DDF turned out to be marketing in the end.
Yes I'm rather bitter I suppose. I guess watching E : D development drift further and further away from what I was expecting/hoping/wanting this game to become does that.

 

[Whitehair]

Retailers shrinking shelf space for games.

GameStop shareholders in a near panic.

AAA publishers depend on retailers to make those enormous $100 million investment numbers back. As retailers buy fewer and fewer games...It's coming, unless something changes.

So, everything is fine with Frontier then as their games are exclusively downloads from a website

 

[Vorxian]

You missed the part where players pick every statement apart so it fits the narrative they want/support. Honestly players for the most part don't even know what's good for the game because they are too emotionally invested. Under promise and over deliver is what I prefer.

You're not wrong, it's like standing up at a 6yr old birthday party and asking everyone what colour balloon they want. You'll get 30+ kids yelling and screaming their choice. Impossible to hear anything through the din.

BUT if you take time to hear each individually, everyone comes away with a balloon, and some kids will be happy with something, than nothing.

the team do read the forums, they do hear what folks are saying. They're 50% there.. all they need to do is turn around and say:

KIDS... ok so, we only have red, blue and pink balloons. Hands up who want blue... Hands up who would like pink..... hands up who want red.

Saying nothing, just adds limbo.

 

[Blackcompany]

So, everything is fine with Frontier then as their games are exclusively downloads from a website

No. Everything is NOT fine with their game. Far from it. Player numbers are down. Way down.

And soon, they will try to market this do nothing loading screen sim/Netflix Stock Price Inflator of a "game" to another console crowd.

Doubtless they have projected tons of sales and lots of cash from this port. So...What happens when sales to both jaded retailers and gamers in the know prove underwhelming? Because that's almost certainly going to happen.

Where's the next injection of cash going to.come from? Because I doubt ship skins are going to sustain this game.

 

[Siranui]

Read the WHOLE post. Writing on the wall.

Studios closing industry wide every year.

Retailers shrinking shelf space for games.

GameStop shareholders in a near panic.

AAA publishers depend on retailers to make those enormous $100 million investment numbers back. As retailers buy fewer and fewer games...It's coming, unless something changes.

Games industry is getting bigger every year, with more and more people gaming.

Bricks and mortar stores and retailers are closing, but that's fully across the board, and nothing to do with the death knell of the industry.

 

[NeilF]

The DDF (Design Discussion Forum) is full of ideas on how to improve E: D. I suppose this thread doesn't need ideas - they fall on deaf ears anyway IMHO. The real question is, do they realise the sad state of the game? So far what I have seen on the streams from Sandro and some from DB doesn't indicate that. Maybe they think all is ok and we have EXCITING and FASCINATING game with a PLETHORA of content? With THE STORY keeping us ON THE EDGE (since gamescom 1 year ago)?. I wouldn't be much surprised, because watching DB interviews it seems he is "excited" for all the wrong things. Tying passenger missions to BGS springs to mind, while they're actually a specific type of cargo, needed to be transported on specific ships (if you want the highest cabin class ofc). If CEO is disconnected from the actual state of the product and is "flying casually" from time to time, he will not see what is wrong with the game. And regarding our lead designer, he has proven on a few ocassions that his understanding of the game is as shallow as E: D itself. Sorry, I can't stomach this. Either way he is also disconnected because he is working on a future content and can't be bothered with our pathetic whining ;-) [c'mon, I have to give him at least some benefit of the doubt], or there is no future content, and they are making things up on the fly, seeing as old Elite's features are almost all covered now in E: D.

Spoiler

There are community managers here, they are not doing stellar jobs with managing crisises like the recent dissent overly well. They should communicate that to their superiors if its over their heads, and we should see a statement from the CEO himself on the state of things. If they realise the state the game is in. Or, they are fully aware, there is nothing to be done to salvage that, and we're destined to vegetation on current bolt-ons. Like I said many times before, we will see it soon. 2017 will be "make it or break it" for me in this game. I'm not saying E: D is doomed - it's far from it because there are LOTS of people who enjoy the current shallow mechanics. Just flying with a low-cost cobra doing missions, not engaging in PvP, not risking big ship's rebuy, pretending to explore and "making up their own stories" while watching netflix on the way to Colonia etc. A simpleton's life ;-) Low cost means no worries, not engaging in PvP means no engineering grind, enjoying current mechanics means no burnout. Maybe that's the "correct" way to play current iteration of Elite, but I think my time is better spent elsewhere. Because for example I want to "blaze my own trail" with a Cutter, and jumping cleanly in the cutter a few times results in huge ship integrity costs. Which makes you work for the fleet maintenance or you will eventually run out of money for rebuys. And they're nerfing the "exploits". Putting another time wall in the game. Sigh.

All we can do is wait for the 2.4 and 3.0 news. Then and only then we will know where we stand. For now, we're left to rot in the dark depressive soup of our own speculations and observations. And maybe that is what makes it so hard.

Well said!

As if to highlight this, for the supposed story and depth, all we get are things like the same old shallow CG mechanics...

eg: Supposed epic conflicts, deciding the outcome of the galaxy, end up as Combat Zone mini-games where you sign up to X or Y (or both as if to exemplify 'shallow') and "farm" away... And this has remained the same for over two years...?

 

[Whitehair]

No. Everything is NOT fine with their game. Far from it. Player numbers are down. Way down.

And soon, they will try to market this do nothing loading screen sim/Netflix Stock Price Inflator of a "game" to another console crowd.

Doubtless they have projected tons of sales and lots of cash from this port. So...What happens when sales to both jaded retailers and gamers in the know prove underwhelming? Because that's almost certainly going to happen.

Where's the next injection of cash going to.come from? Because I doubt ship skins are going to sustain this game.

Dude, read the post and grok the point being made.

You call DOOM AND GLOOM siting the decline of retail outlets to sell games.

I show that FD don't even use Retail outlets.

You wonder what that WHOOSHING noise was that just went over your head.

 

[Blackcompany]

Games industry is getting bigger every year, with more and more people gaming.

Bricks and mortar stores and retailers are closing, but that's fully across the board, and nothing to do with the death knell of the industry.

But it will be the death knell of the AAA industry. You can't make a profit from a $100 million investment with direct to consumer through sales. But for and Activision recouped their ridiculous Destiny investment through sales to retailers.

Those retailers saw copies of the game sit on shelves for.over a year. I've been in Targets and Walmarts lately and seen the shrinking shelf space for he's. Been told "we don't know" when I asked about consoles being in stock once more.

I've seen the increasingly poor reviews of AAA games from media who no longer depend on early review copies.

The AAA gaming industry is headed for dark.days if it doesn't learn to take risks and innovate soon.

 

[Kaltern]

I wanted to mention one other thing that normally I couldn't care less about.

When I made that post, I had 3 rep green boxes. I now have 6. I have received 90 rep points. Of course, I express my gratitude to those who did rep me - it totally wasn't required, and under normal circumstances wouldn't mean anything.

However, the fact that so many people felt the need to rep that post in such a short space of time.. well I think that also shows that there is a significant number of players who are as passionate about getting this game back on track as I am. Given that the statistical probability of people who agreed with my post, and didn't rep me is quite high, compared to those who did - well, I believe that is a hugely significant figure, and again, shouldn't be ignored.

My original post was not the exact opinion of everyone who read it - and of course that's fine. However, the 'core' message I have been trying to convey does seem to be acknowledged and agreed with - even by a few who disagree with a lot of my views. This should never be discounted.