Serious discussion on proper fleet mechanics

[Jaiotu]

Have you found the Private Group and Wing features yet? Social grouping right there!

I work nights and weekends. I generally get most of my game time in when Europe is still at work and the Americas are on their morning commute. Besides... most of the features I've talked about aren't about social GROUPS but social TOOLS. Those are two different things. Wings can be a good social tool but if you are playing when others are offline it's pretty useless and even in Open, thanks to my work hours, I might as well be playing in Solo 90% of the time.

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why should guildies get preferential treatment and extra game content over anybody else?

They shouldn't. I've tried to focus on tools or features that would benefit the soloist just as much as it would PMFs.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I'm all for better tools for people to more easily manage their groups, and many features could be made more useful for wing and group management. I still don't see though, how any social tools will really benefit solo players, or those who choose to play in groups of good friends, and how that development time to implement such can be justified.

 

[Jaiotu]

The needs of the entire player base have already been met.

I guess Frontier can fire their development team. Game is complete. So say we all.

 

[Asp Explorer]

So say we all.

Would you mind filling this lulzbucket? I want to wash the motorbike in the morning.

 

[Mohrgan]

It's not the "decently put arguments" it's the constant put downs and referring to player groups as cults and those who participate in them as cultists. This is derogatory and unnecessary. I can understand you wanting to keep Elite focused on the individual player but Frontier made the decision to put an axe to offline mode and keep us all playing in the same game universe.

Personally I'd like to focus on taking some of the ideas that have been expressed by the OP and finding ways to implement them that won't impact ANYONE's style of game play. If Frontier listens then they listen, if they don't they don't. You might think that any effort by Frontier to make Elite: Dangerous a more friendly multiplayer experience is wasted developer hours but this game needs to meet the needs of the entire player base not just those who fly solo or in wings of four.

I use the word 'Cult' as interchangeable with Corp, Fleet, or guild. I never ever once called anyone a Cultist. There is a difference. I never insult a poster, just their arguments.

Most of the ideas the OP has expressed can not be implemented as to not impact the small group, or lone player. They all offer, and insist on, benefits to a player beyond the social dimension. This game only needs to meet the needs of the player. There is no logic to the assertion that it owes us some 'Group only Content'. That is a construct that has no basis in fact. It's easy to assert, but has no foundation to support it.

Just as Vicktor has pledged to keep bringing this topic up, I will be here to point out the pitfalls in that effort. I continually point out that these efforts should be directed at improving upon the Player Faction system already implemented, but that goes unheeded because that idea does not satisfy the empire building desire I see behind these effort to get 'Proper Fleet Mechanics' into Elite, while that game play is available elsewhere, and everywhere. FD has shown they want to take another path, and I applaud them for that.

 

[VR Lucian Arkright]

I use the word 'Cult' as interchangeable with Corp, Fleet, or guild. I never ever once called anyone a Cultist. There is a difference. I never insult a poster, just their arguments.

If you're calling Corps/Guilds/etc. 'Cults', then, by definition, you're calling those in them 'Cultists.'

 

[Jaiotu]

I continually point out that these efforts should be directed at improving upon the Player Faction system already implemented, but that goes unheeded because that idea does not satisfy the empire building desire I see behind these effort to get 'Proper Fleet Mechanics' into Elite, while that game play is available elsewhere, and everywhere.

If that is the case then please direct a little of this energy toward my post on the previous page. Instead of over simplistically dismissing my suggestion as being the same thing as donation missions (it isn't) tell me why it wouldn't work or better yet suggest changes that would make it work.

As for me; I have no desire to be an emperor. I want to help every player. Soloist, explorer, PMFer. Social tools would benefit all but the most isolationist of players.

What I'd like to see is tools that are integrated into the game that don't give "power" to specific players. For instance: When it comes to Minor Faction Tags I don't want to see a system where members of that minor faction are administered by a group leader. I'd prefer membership in the faction to be based on the player maintaining positive reputation with the faction. That way if you, the lone wolf player, decided to "pledge" to EDF you could do so. Simply maintain allied status and nobody in the EDF "group" can kick you out (they may not be happy that you joined in-game without signing up on the website but if you're working on behalf of the in-game faction, does it really matter?) If you acquire a less than allied reputation or become wanted or hostile then (and only then) do you lose the faction tag and any benefits that might go along with it.

This means that you could join an NPC faction (The Dark Wheel?) and turn it into your own private Minor Faction (okay, if we could pledge to the Dark Wheel I'd sign up, sorry Vicktore).

Social tools should encourage cooperation not encourage drama.

 

[Shar]

I,ve always assumed and i might be wrong, but i think the majority by a long way are what you might call soloists, coupled with the fact that the developer seems to take the game more and more in that direction, i feel it's a safe bet elite will not become a guild style game frontier probebly have far more to lose than gain by entertaining such an idea.

As always it should be talked about freely thats what the forum is for. Personally i would like elite to stay with it's current trajectory as it is unique, also because it is one persistant galaxy so any dramatic change effects us all in some way. I played Eve online for a while, way back and i hated it so many wanabe darth vaders trying to control others if elite was like that i would not be playing it.

Fly safe commanders.

 

[Mohrgan]

If you're calling Corps/Guilds/etc. 'Cults', then, by definition, you're calling those in them 'Cultists.'

Semantics. With what people call each other around here, why should that be a problem?

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If that is the case then please direct a little of this energy toward my post on the previous page. Instead of over simplistically dismissing my suggestion as being the same thing as donation missions (it isn't) tell me why it wouldn't work or better yet suggest changes that would make it work.

As for me; I have no desire to be an emperor. I want to help every player. Soloist, explorer, PMFer. Social tools would benefit all but the most isolationist of players.

What I'd like to see is tools that are integrated into the game that don't give "power" to specific players. For instance: When it comes to Minor Faction Tags I don't want to see a system where members of that minor faction are administered by a group leader. I'd prefer membership in the faction to be based on the player maintaining positive reputation with the faction. That way if you, the lone wolf player, decided to "pledge" to EDF you could do so. Simply maintain allied status and nobody in the EDF "group" can kick you out (they may not be happy that you joined in-game without signing up on the website but if you're working on behalf of the in-game faction, does it really matter?) If you acquire a less than allied reputation or become wanted or hostile then (and only then) do you lose the faction tag and any benefits that might go along with it.

This means that you could join an NPC faction (The Dark Wheel?) and turn it into your own private Minor Faction (okay, if we could pledge to the Dark Wheel I'd sign up, sorry Vicktore).

Social tools should encourage cooperation not encourage drama.

I have always supported Social Tools. Right from the very beginning, of the threads that have come before this one. I struggle against the expansion of these ideas into Ownership, Conveniences, Content, and Perks for members that non-members cannot take advantage of. We circle around to this all of the time. We're back to Social Tools. Good, but the next post will be about station or something else again.

 

[Vicktore Beskor]

Hello commanders
Instead of starting a new thread about this topic I decided to bring this thread back to the for front on the forums.

I feel now that multi-crew is on the way we should again to address this topic. I feel this is the next step for Frontier needs to make.

To be honest I would like to here from the developers on this topic and talk to them on how proper fleet mechanics would improve Elite Dangerous.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Hello commanders
Instead of starting a new thread about this topic I decided to bring this thread back to the for front on the forums.

I feel now that multi-crew is on the way we should again to address this topic. I feel this is the next step for Frontier needs to make.

To be honest I would like to here from the developers on this topic and talk to them on how proper fleet mechanics would improve Elite Dangerous.

Oh Vicktore!
You're back!
How I've missed you! [heart][heart][heart][heart]

 

[Miklos Atreides]

I can consider some type of fleet management like pbulishing Ship IDs and faction pledged to be shown in game.
Real Fleet management with tactical view galaxy cards and so on is a thing that is quite far away.
The fear isn't that someone belongs to a fleet.

The fear is about player owned assets and here it stops for me at some point. Years ago I mentioned a minor faction
should have some type of basic control what an owned station is about e.g. prohibited goods: Slaved allowed, Drugs not.

But regulated access to stations and fleet related custom regulations isn't the way to go.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[c00ky1970]

proper fleet mechanics

What are proper fleet mechanics?

Do you mean a way to organize your own fleet of ships you purchased in outfitting?

Or how you can move them about the galaxy?

Or do you want some form of standard colouring scheme for all ships you own?

A way to locate other friends in your fleet around the galaxy? Send messages to them?

Because it appears to me that what you actually want is not fleet mechanics but it is ways for people to further their megalomania.

Sharing loot is not easy to do in this game cos its the route gold farmers can gaina foothold, or players can trick players out of items.

Empire building, you can follow an already existing faction in game and work together to maximise its control in systems

I don't want this game to be another ruined by the creation of another goon squad style dictatorship with you or any other looney at its head.

The unique selling point of this game is that it is down to the individual, part of what you want is the ability to control that individual by the game conferring powers on you to be able to boss those individuals about.

The best bit about Elite is that if someone doesn't like what someone else is doing is that they can them, by going into private or solo mode and continue doing there or even blocking a player.

Those kind of tools to manage the egregious idiots that think there way of doing things is the right and only way are what should be developed.

We don't want proper fleet mechanics, we want proper fool mechanics.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

"Proper Fleet Mechanics"

Four Commanders make a Wing
Four Wings make a Squadron
Four Squadrons make a Group
Four Groups make a Fleet.

So.. you'll need 256 commanders to start with. Then you'll need a voice chat system that can support at least that many people, preferably a free one, as most are not going to want to pay for something else.
You'll also need Frontier to do something about the client stability when multiple commanders are in the same instance, as having members crash out of the game isn't much fun either.

Finally, you'll need something to actually do with that many people, but at least you'll have a proper fleet. And with the right voice chat program, you'll be able to make lists of who's who, so you'll know when Red Five is standing by, who Red Five actually is.

 

[Vicktore Beskor]

I think proper fleet mechanics can take many forms. But to be successful they have to hit on some basic point.

1- fleet organization tools like, fleet mail,fleet chat and a way to track fleet information.
2- I feel fleets should own assets in game but they need a cost. That could be a way to control fleet size. Space stations and outpost and space ports should all have a maintenance cost like fuel and commodities based on the type of economy that asset has. Fueling and maintaining them could be like a mini CG for the fleet.

3- the fleets have to be controlled by the players without any in game npc middle men

4- meaningful interaction with the game environment

5- proper colonization mechanism where players can create their own bubbles

I feel the current player minor faction should be converted into player fleets. These are just some of my ideas.

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And I would like to point out that Frontier is thinking about group gameplay we have multi-crew coming out soon so i feel this is just the next logical step. That is why it is very important that we discuss it in a mature manner now so that we can give the developers some helpful information

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

And I would like to point out that Frontier is thinking about group gameplay we have multi-crew coming out soon so i feel this is just the next logical step.

There is an awful long way between 'easy way to blow stuff up with your buddies' and 'owning spacestations and colonizing new systems'.

I don't feel that 'fleet mechanics' constitutes the 'next logical step'.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I think proper fleet mechanics can take many forms. But to be successful they have to hit on some basic point.

1- fleet organization tools like, fleet mail,fleet chat and a way to track fleet information.

CMDR YourName@gmail would take care of that.
A Skype for all your voice/chat needs, with a Fleet group and all your fleeties added takes are of that.
A website full of your fleet information takes care of the rest.

2- I feel fleets should own assets in game but they need a cost. That could be a way to control fleet size. Space stations and outpost and space ports should all have a maintenance cost like fuel and commodities based on the type of economy that asset has. Fueling and maintaining them could be like a mini CG for the fleet.

It seems there are more than a few folks who want to "own" everything. They want their own stations, their own systems, their own stars... and that's just not what Elite is. There is this other game, however...

3- the fleets have to be controlled by the players without any in game npc middle men

See #1 above.

4- meaningful interaction with the game environment

Now you're asking too much. We're just pilots, not politicians, not governments, not even important enough to park in the Reserved section.

5- proper colonization mechanism where players can create their own bubbles

See #2 above. Of course, that game was nearly destroyed when two such player groups merged. And even now that game is largely ruined by the player groups to the point of being nearly unplayable.

I feel the current player minor faction should be converted into player fleets. These are just some of my ideas.

But what if, and bare with me here, what if a particular player minor faction is structured in such a manner that it could not be a singular fleet, and would have to be several fleets at once?

And I would like to point out that Frontier is thinking about group gameplay we have multi-crew coming out soon so i feel this is just the next logical step. That is why it is very important that we discuss it in a mature manner now so that we can give the developers some helpful information

As a largely Private Group player, I'm going to have to say that this sort of structuring would only give me less reason to venture into Open play. Just imagine the Griefer fleets now unified and able to ensure only they are able to actually enjoy the game, since The Game is "how can we make other people miserable?" They're bad enough right now, so giving them more ability to spread their disease does no one any favors.

Then there is the more simple matter of system resources - all these systems put extra load on servers, and let's face facts - the servers have enough problems already. A black screen or two in a CZ with a wing of two, or a few crashes trying to get obelisks to light up are more than enough issues to say a bit less is actually better.

We've already got plenty of folks who can wallpaper their work areas with spreadsheets and tables they use for their day-to-day play.
We've got a number of excellent websites full of data for just about everything you might ever want.
So for the most part we're no strangers to external tools to support our Elite habits.
I honestly don't see any real reason to change that.

 

[Vicktore Beskor]

One of the main reasons to introduce proper fleet mechanics into the game is to reach out to a larger player base as well as keep many players involved and playing the game. It is my so humble opinion that not introducing proper fleet mechanics to the game is short sighted. As one of the leaders of a player minor faction I can see there is much room for improvements to the game.

By the way I am one of the leaders of the Earth Defense Fleet.

Link: www.earthdefensefleet.net

I feel it is my responsibility to always advocate for improvements that would make fleet life more engaging and fun. I take that responsibility very seriously. I truly believe that proper fleet mechanics are one day going to be introduced into Elite Dangerous the question is do we as players want to have a hand in those mechanisms.

I feel if I could sit down with David, Michael, and Sandro over a cup of coffee and a good Brooklyn bagel with smoked salmon and Cream cheese with onion and tomato I could help them understand the type of proper fleet mechanics that I feel would not only fit Elite Dangerous but also make it something that many players would would to participated in.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

One of the main reasons to introduce proper fleet mechanics into the game is to reach out to a larger player base as well as keep many players involved and playing the game. It is my so humble opinion that not introducing proper fleet mechanics to the game is short sighted. As one of the leaders of a player minor faction I can see there is much room for improvements to the game.

By the way I am one of the leaders of the Earth Defense Fleet.

Link: www.earthdefensefleet.net

I feel it is my responsibility to always advocate for improvements that would make fleet life more engaging and fun. I take that responsibility very seriously. I truly believe that proper fleet mechanics are one day going to be introduced into Elite Dangerous the question is do we as players want to have a hand in those mechanisms.

I feel if I could sit down with David, Michael, and Sandro over a cup of coffee and a good Brooklyn bagel with smoked salmon and Cream cheese with onion and tomato I could help them understand the type of proper fleet mechanics that I feel would not only fit Elite Dangerous but also make it something that many players would would to participated in.

They'd likely prefer a crumpet to a bagel but that aside...

Aside from this thread, I can't say I've ever heard of the Earth Defense Fleet - no offense intended, just never heard of it before just now.
And I do not doubt you take what you do seriously.
I just can't help but think of another group I do know of - the Fuel Rats.
They've got quite a role in things, and make use of a number of tools, including IRC, to manage their affairs quite nicely, all outside of the game.

From a character perspective, I don't have much use for any of the powers or factions that support them - politics in space is like spit in the ocean.
My loyalty is to the credit, and that which it can buy.

 

[Sasquatch_Punter]

Honestly I think galactic fleet mechanics should be reserved for the background simulation, with fleet orders and objectives tied into Powerplay and naval careers, strictly driven algorithmically with some minor influence by PP players over the PP fleets.

I would love to let NPCs fly my ships in a wing, though. If we could outfit our own ships and hire NPCs to fly them, ranking them like normal NPC crew, that would add another dimension to the game for sure. Add persistent cargo and you could command trade convoys, exploration flotillas, gangs, combat squads, mining crews, etc... That would give us a huge money sink and far, far more ways to play the game. Bring some more NPC interaction into the game and give us the tools to create hugely personal game experiences with persistent NPC wingmates we can grow attached to... that sounds like a game I'd definitely put money down for.