Elite Feet: Applying Lessons learned from Eve Online and other MMOs in transitioning from ship-centric to pilot-centric.

[MarcusVatta]

Elite Feet: Applying Lessons learned from Eve Online and other MMOs in transitioning from ship-centric to pilot-centric.

Now that 2.3 is on the final stretch, we can turn our eyes towards future development. While EliteFeet (ie characters leaving their ships) may or may not be the next feature, it is in the road map. Having been an active Eve Online player through their failed attempt to make a similar transition, I have some thoughts on how Frontier can avoid a similar fate.

TL;DR: A brain dump of ideas of how to make EliteFeet useful and fun, without stepping on existing gamepay.

Types of Features

Broadly, features in any 1^st person module will fall into two categories: Gameplay and Social. The goals, gameplay loops, and limitations for these are fundamentally different, so I will comment on them separately.

Gameplay

When Eve Online announced that characters will be able to leave their ships and walk around stations, the player-base reacted with a single question: “Why?” Hardcore players who were heavily into the grind did not want anything that would slow or penalize their mission-grind. The concept of taking an extra 5-10 minutes between missions to walk across the station and talk to their mission giver seemed like it would just be extra work, extra grind with no reason.
While they had a point, I don’t believe that the solution Eve Online eventually settled on – no further development of the feature – was the right way to go.
One possible solution is to accept that hardcore grinders will not want to get out of their ship, and instead target the gameplay for more rare or non-looping gameplay.

Missions:

Mission running has a large potential for 1^st person gameplay, but care needs to be taken to avoid disrupting existing grinds too much. Some possibilities include
· Force pilots to meet face-to-face for the first mission for a mission giver, introductions
· Reward pilots with extra influence and reputation for face to face hand-ins, but do not change the existing rewards for commlink hand-ins
· Have special missions, including rank and permit rewards, require face-to-face contact.

Trade:

Big haul trading would likely not have a large amount of face-to-face contact. It doesn’t make sense to penalize traders by requiring them to leave their ship to buy or sell goods. However, rare-good traders, small-haul traders, and smugglers could benefit from an off-ship marketplace, which could include:
· First contact with Black Market. It might make sense to require commanders to make face to face contact with a black market buyer the first time they want to sell at that station. Further contact could be via comlink
· Out-of-place rare goods. Small-haul traders might find a few bottles of lavian brandy to buy in Sol or some other system. While the profit may be smaller than a full rare-good run, it would still be good to pick it up and take it farther for a tidy profit.
· Specialized buyers. Merchants looking to buy small-to-medium lots of goods at better-than-market prices.

Exploration

Normal Exploration gameplay doesn’t have a lot of station-side interaction of any kind. There are plenty of possibilities for cool mystery stuff off-station, but I’ll leave that out-of-scope of this post.
· Story: I expect this is where Frontier already has big plans for station-side interactions. There are tons of possibilities for moving the story forward through face-to-face interactions.

Other

· Engineers: Since engineer interactions aren’t really grinded (ground?) it might make sense to make them face to face for pure coolness.
· PowerPlay: I haven’t played this much, but “bonus” interactions similar to missions might be beneficial
· Shipyard. Buying and selling ships potentially could benefit from 1^st person. Moving from ship to ship, though, might be too much.


Social interactions

A common theme in 1^st person MMOs is the concept of a tavern, inn, bar, or other social space. These have had mixed success, and often end up being part of the scenery rather than a destination.
Part of the problem with social spaces in a 1^st person MMO is that while it is tempting to re-create real world social spaces such as bars and night-clubs, the reasons people gather in such spaces in real life –namely eating and drinking – don’t apply in MMOs. Instead, developers should look at the reasons people may want to gather, and what they’d like to be doing while gathered.

Why would I go to a bar?

· The main reason to go to a bar I think, is to wait. Perhaps the last member of your wing is flying from 10 jumps away. Perhaps you’re waiting for the mission board to update. Perhaps you are waiting for your ship or module to be delivered. Larger groups might wait at the bar while everyone arrives. Why wait in your ship when you could wait in a social space? Obviously, some will prefer to wait in their ship, but enough, I think, would want to get together
· A secondary reason might be for a meeting. It might be “cool” to meet in a tavern instead of getting on voice chat. This would especially be true if tools for presentations were available in social spaces.

What does it need to have?

In order to be a part of the game, social areas need to have a real-time connection with the game itself. This means players must feel that they are actually where they are in-game, rather than a chatroom that they linked to from the game. As a result, they should have:
· Windows. Real windows showing the real-time comings and goings are a must for these spaces. The view outside is really what is going to anchor the space to a location in the galaxy.
· Arrival and departure board. Most if not all of these stations will be at spaceports. So a board that lists Pad number, ship name, cmdr name, and ship class for both arrivals and departures updated in real time would give a great connection to the game at large.
· References to station state. Lighting changes, changes to decorations, NPC denizens etc. could reflect the current state. You might even shut it down during outbreaks and civil unrest.

What would I do there?

Activities in social spaces, I think, will likely “break immersion” in some way. The reason for that is that the one social space activity that does transfer over from the real world is the consumption of media. So, I envision a space where
· Some sort of concept of a jukebox. This would be an interface where I can pay credits to add media to a queue that plays for all the people in the space. This could be audio, or it could be video. Frankly, just having a screen that plays Youtube videos would probably be perfect.
· Bulletin boards. Players can leave messages/ads on a board. Different prices for leaving messages for different periods, and for coverage (station, system, 10 ly, 50ly, etc.) Handy for player faction recruiting, and other social gatherings, etc.
· Minigames. Poker for credits, LAN CQC, darts with Coriolis force. Short, fun, and limited to players in the bar.
· Check station services. I should be able to check the mission board from the bar.

Here ends the brain dump. Comments are welcome.

 

[Flyffies]

Why would I go to a bar?

· The main reason to go to a bar I think, is to wait. Perhaps the last member of your wing is flying from 10 jumps away. Perhaps you’re waiting for the mission board to update. Perhaps you are waiting for your ship or module to be delivered. Larger groups might wait at the bar while everyone arrives. Why wait in your ship when you could wait in a social space? Obviously, some will prefer to wait in their ship, but enough, I think, would want to get together
· A secondary reason might be for a meeting. It might be “cool” to meet in a tavern instead of getting on voice chat. This would especially be true if tools for presentations were available in social spaces.

I like the idea of meeting at a bar. You could also enable a local voice chat in a Bar, so you might meet a comander. It would be a cool and immersive way to getting to know other players or find someone to hunt with.
There could also be some NPCs with missions. This NPCs would not show up on the mission board. Its could just be a "Hey, i have some diry work, thats needs to be done..." style encouter.

 

[CMDR Spadino]

Awesome! I loved it all. Lots of pretty ideas, well connected. In regard the very end of your brainstorm, it will revive the CQC, integrating it in the galaxy. Another thing which could appear at social hubs are players local events: races, PVP challenges, etc...

 

[Siobhan]

I think, for explorers, face to face meetings with museum curators or collectors of antiquities... people who'd be less likely to be on the usual networks... again, the specialist buyers the OP mentioned earlier.

Maybe sometimes a mission will ask you to meet them somewhere, or maybe a passenger mission... "pick me up from xxx location in yyy station" etc.

Perhaps a mission to collect a sample of something... a plant or a rock, or maybe a photo that needs you to leave the ship and even your SRV.

Maybe a station without docking facilities where you need to spacewalk to the airlock...

 

[CMDR Spadino]

I think, for explorers, face to face meetings with museum curators or collectors of antiquities... people who'd be less likely to be on the usual networks... again, the specialist buyers the OP mentioned earlier.

Maybe sometimes a mission will ask you to meet them somewhere, or maybe a passenger mission... "pick me up from xxx location in yyy station" etc.

Perhaps a mission to collect a sample of something... a plant or a rock, or maybe a photo that needs you to leave the ship and even your SRV.

Maybe a station without docking facilities where you need to spacewalk to the airlock...

Very cool ideas, indeed. Have +1 REP for that.

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

Yeah...nah. Not that there is anything wrong with your ideas 'per-se' but I just don't see an added value? What is the point of walking around in ED? Correct, it would be a HUGE mistake to add an unnecessary time element for any reason. As someone note din another thread - everything that you can do in ED from your ship, you can do so because of communications technology. There is no need to be anywhere in person! You can communicate via your ships console, you can load and offload cargo using bots and drones, cash is transferred electronically etc. You could, in theory and actuality, never leave the comfort of your ship! And why not? Some people live practically like this TODAY at home.

So, I ask again, WHY do you need to walk round? Then it is only a social placater for players for some reason... to break the monotony. Like min-games...I never liked this in games, they always felt like someone's chance to try out a personal project before they released it as a mini game on android for $1 download!

Perhaps the ONLY god reason to have to walk around, is when, and if, you need to get out of your ship or more accurately, SRV, on a planet's surface to explore an area that you simply cannot reach by any other mode e.g. inside a base. That perhaps has ...well, 'leg's', as they say. I might consider that type of interaction to be justifiable as game mechanic. But, and I stress this highly, BUT, I would be disappointed if it ended up being a FPS shooter as a result, involving legions of on-line players space jumping around and shooting each other, respawning back at their ship, running back to their SRV, loading up their guns, getting shot again - ad nauseam with no actual goal to the event except grieving, bragging, or time wasting. If you want to play THAT game - there are other purpose built games that would undoubtedly suit you more than ED.

So instead of trying to turn Ed into EVE, Mass Effect, Planetside, or whatever, why not just let it be ED and work with that. So...back to my original question - what is the point of being able to walk around, other than 'vanity' i.e. what is the necessary gameplay component that requires me to be able to go into a pilot FP view?

 

[Hydrino]

Yeah...nah. Not that there is anything wrong with your ideas 'per-se' but I just don't see an added value? What is the point of walking around in ED? Correct, it would be a HUGE mistake to add an unnecessary time element for any reason. As someone note din another thread - everything that you can do in ED from your ship, you can do so because of communications technology. There is no need to be anywhere in person! You can communicate via your ships console, you can load and offload cargo using bots and drones, cash is transferred electronically etc. You could, in theory and actuality, never leave the comfort of your ship! And why not? Some people live practically like this TODAY at home.

So, I ask again, WHY do you need to walk round? Then it is only a social placater for players for some reason... to break the monotony. Like min-games...I never liked this in games, they always felt like someone's chance to try out a personal project before they released it as a mini game on android for $1 download!

Perhaps the ONLY god reason to have to walk around, is when, and if, you need to get out of your ship or more accurately, SRV, on a planet's surface to explore an area that you simply cannot reach by any other mode e.g. inside a base. That perhaps has ...well, 'leg's', as they say. I might consider that type of interaction to be justifiable as game mechanic. But, and I stress this highly, BUT, I would be disappointed if it ended up being a FPS shooter as a result, involving legions of on-line players space jumping around and shooting each other, respawning back at their ship, running back to their SRV, loading up their guns, getting shot again - ad nauseam with no actual goal to the event except grieving, bragging, or time wasting. If you want to play THAT game - there are other purpose built games that would undoubtedly suit you more than ED.

So instead of trying to turn Ed into EVE, Mass Effect, Planetside, or whatever, why not just let it be ED and work with that. So...back to my original question - what is the point of being able to walk around, other than 'vanity' i.e. what is the necessary gameplay component that requires me to be able to go into a pilot FP view?

This is the question ^

The initial and primary reason I want space legs, is to add a sense of life to the game. I want to see NPC's walking in the space stations, manning the landing pads, driving around the settlements on planets and checking their auto-miners. To me that would enrich the galaxy tremendously. Also importantly, it could be done as phase I without allowing players to walk around at all.

I think FD will avoid the fate mentioned in the above post because they will leave feet for last and they won't remove existing game loops. A season 1 player will still play only in space, and in their pilot's chair and that will work just great. While the folks forking over cash for EVA/ Spacelegs/ Elitefeet will get additional gameplay. Then players have the flexibility to play a session only in space or to land on a planet and trade from the Pilot's seat, or to go for a walkabout if they want. Alien races offer a base-clearing or cap-ship clearing FPS mode of combat that players could co-op and not have to attack other humans. Fast travel in stations will also be mandatory to make it convenient to visit mission givers and such- no 20 minute walks just to get to your ship from the far side of the station.

There are also potentially quite complex issues with legs. For example, ship boarding actions are a common theme devs have mentioned as exciting potential FPS game-play. But walk through it; Player A is boarded, gets killed, spawns back at a station and uses insurance to get a new ship. But does the boarding player B get to keep the maxed out Anaconda after killing the owner? Clearly that would be an exploit. What happens to Player B's original ship if they decide to fly off in the captured ship? What if player B has a friend as crew that could fly a ship back to a station and dock it for the player? If FD locks ships to players so they cannot be stolen that is a solution but then how boring is it going to be to take over a ship and know you can't steal it?

Folks keep dreaming it is "soon" but devs have repeatedly said "far in future", including saying that last month.

 

[MarcusVatta]

Yeah...nah. Not that there is anything wrong with your ideas 'per-se' but I just don't see an added value? What is the point of walking around in ED? Correct, it would be a HUGE mistake to add an unnecessary time element for any reason. As someone note din another thread - everything that you can do in ED from your ship, you can do so because of communications technology. There is no need to be anywhere in person! You can communicate via your ships console, you can load and offload cargo using bots and drones, cash is transferred electronically etc. You could, in theory and actuality, never leave the comfort of your ship! And why not? Some people live practically like this TODAY at home.

So, I ask again, WHY do you need to walk round? Then it is only a social placater for players for some reason... to break the monotony. Like min-games...I never liked this in games, they always felt like someone's chance to try out a personal project before they released it as a mini game on android for $1 download!

Perhaps the ONLY god reason to have to walk around, is when, and if, you need to get out of your ship or more accurately, SRV, on a planet's surface to explore an area that you simply cannot reach by any other mode e.g. inside a base. That perhaps has ...well, 'leg's', as they say. I might consider that type of interaction to be justifiable as game mechanic. But, and I stress this highly, BUT, I would be disappointed if it ended up being a FPS shooter as a result, involving legions of on-line players space jumping around and shooting each other, respawning back at their ship, running back to their SRV, loading up their guns, getting shot again - ad nauseam with no actual goal to the event except grieving, bragging, or time wasting. If you want to play THAT game - there are other purpose built games that would undoubtedly suit you more than ED.

So instead of trying to turn Ed into EVE, Mass Effect, Planetside, or whatever, why not just let it be ED and work with that. So...back to my original question - what is the point of being able to walk around, other than 'vanity' i.e. what is the necessary gameplay component that requires me to be able to go into a pilot FP view?

This is always the question, and it's one other games have struggled with. My own opinion is that it should not be part of the grind, because walking anywhere, even with elevators and slidewalks or what-have-you, will take nearly as much time as flying. Instead, it should be used sparingly, and in many cases optionally.

I think the essential math should be this: If you are playing for 3+ hours, your best way of making money should be without leaving your ship, but if you are only playing for 1 hour at a time, you can make more than you otherwise could by getting and turning your mission in in person.

That works out to:
Mission loop: 45 min (example)
Mission reward: 1 mil (example)

4 hour game session:
Missions: 5
Mission reward 5 million (1.25 million/hour)

1 hour game session:
Missions: 1 + 15 minutes for a face to face hand-in
Mission reward 1 million (1 million/hour)
Mission reward face-to-face multiplier 10%
Mission reward 1.25 million (1.10 million/hour)

So you can see that if you are playing hardcore missions, you aren't penalized for not leaving the ship, but if you are playing more casually, you are rewarded for getting out and walking. That's the sort of thing I think we should aim for.

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

Good work sir. I concur with your thinking about keeping it 'balanced' in whatever they ultimately propose. Whether i agree with the total value per hour (and i don't but that's by the by), the total earn rate per hour should be roughly equivalent for whatever role you fulfill in the ED universe - gosh if FDev just balanced everything to do that one thing alone that would make a lot of people very happy.

So my final objection to this is, and remains - what is the dynamic that 'requires' elitefeet to be part of thegame rather than just another mini-game inside. They tried that with CQC and it flopped. While i appreciate the 'add more depth and colour' argument, that only goes so far - it has to have, and be inherent gameply, but yes i also agree that it should be OPTIONAL, i.e. if you are uninterested in getting off your ship and stretching your feet you

a)don't have to to fulfill your game objectives and
b)are not penalised in some way for so choosing.

FDev need to learn from Engineers. So riddle me up an example of your thinking? I posted that one mechanic i had envisaged was that you take a mission to retrieve (X) from a planetary base involving:

a) navigating to the base
b) SRV reconnaissance and combat to disable perimeter defenses and enter base
c) exiting SRV to enter base buildings
d) FPS comabt to defeat interior base defenses
e) solve or resolve some puzzles to gaina ccess to the (X)
f) escape base (before detonation or self destruct possibly?)
g) enter SRV
h) escape or evade dropped hostile SRV's
i) enter ship
j) escape or evade hostile ships in orbit
k) return to base - get the girl etc....

that kind of thing. if you can make that AND avoid something like an FPS fest between players...then i could be convinced.

 

[MarcusVatta]

Personally, I consider Elite to be most like the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey in style, drama, and pacing. Which is to say, it is beautiful, deep in places, and quite chill. Even the action (ie combat) is paced more slowly than other games, and I feel that all of this is very deliberate.

As I result, I doubt we're going to get any FPS gameplay in the foreseeable future. I'd love to get out of my ship and enter a pirate complex for the purpose of wiping them out, but I'm not expecting it. At most, I'm hoping for:

Character to character interactions in stations, starports, and outposts. (grav boots or something to cover zero/low-g)
Social interactions in same locations
Possibly getting out of ship on planetary surfaces. (Planetary Field geology?)

To be perfectly honest, I'd rather get planetary surface gameplay for volcanic, gas giant, and non-earthlike worlds with atmo before Space Legs, but I don't have as much insight into those features.

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

To be perfectly honest, I'd rather get planetary surface gameplay for volcanic, gas giant, and non-earthlike worlds with atmo before Space Legs, but I don't have as much insight into those features.

Ditto. Never was a fan of shoot em ups myself, preferred evasion based games or puzzles than hectic button mashing. But live and let live i guess. Yes, i echo your sentiments an di feel that the community has repeatedly asked Fdev for some insight into their thinking too - a priority list or an intended work schedule at least so that we can concentrate on discussing planned upcoming changes or beta issues rather than 'nothing to announce at this time'. Clearly they have a project schedule, and we aren't saying we want a definitive deadline date, just an idea of where FDev priorities lie, otherwise the community gets hyped about an idea that never comes to fruition because it isn't in FDevs budget for this calendar year.

You cannot have it both ways - if you want community involvement and they do and they get it - they need to be a fraction more open on their thought processes too... in my opinion.

 

[Lestat]

Op you have to remember Eve and Elite Dangerous are Two different games so can't do lesson learn take on two different games.

 

[Tryst]

Bars would be a great place to pick up 'not entirely legal' missions, the type of missions you'd expect to get from private individuals with a grudge against someone in particular.

Also "off the record" missions given by organisations who would deny any involvement if you got caught. Such missions would give good rep with the organisation/super power since you would do it without any official sanctions.

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

Bars would be a great place to pick up 'not entirely legal' missions,

Sounds a lot like, 'your quest starts in the tavern...' and is a little bit 1970's tbh.

Encyrpted datalink perhaps? I would hope that in 3303 we have moved on form picking up dodgy work in a bar - a 'silk road' style digital black market where EVERYONE remains anonymous is far more likely tbh.

bars are for beer and picking up STDs.

 

[MarcusVatta]

Sounds a lot like, 'your quest starts in the tavern...' and is a little bit 1970's tbh.

Encyrpted datalink perhaps? I would hope that in 3303 we have moved on form picking up dodgy work in a bar - a 'silk road' style digital black market where EVERYONE remains anonymous is far more likely tbh.

bars are for beer and picking up STDs.

I'm leery of most "In the future we must be beyond x, y, or z" for a couple of reasons. Firstly, this is a fictional universe, and it therefore a reflection of present day values, imagined futures, and nostalgic pasts. Things exist in this world because they fit the creators' vision for it, not because they would necessarily exist in 3303. Secondly, things like taverns have existed for thousands of years, and there is still, despite all of the advances we've made to this point, a place for a face-to-face meeting, especially for high-risk encounters where it is good to size up who you're dealing with.

However, this would be a simulation of a bar, and so much of the reason for going there is lost in that abstraction. No beer or STDs at a starport bar. Maybe you could pretend, but where's the fun in that? That's why any social space, be it a bar, meeting room, or whatever, needs to be built around doing what people enjoy doing together online, rather than in reality. And obviously, if you're in Elite Dangerous, the thing you want to be doing together is flying spaceships. So the social spaces are going to be, IMO, for those moments when you can't fly, but you don't want to log out.

 

[Hasaf]

One useful thing in the bar would be to have, on a very random basis, a NPC approach a PC and offer great missions. The type of missions could be based on the pilots most recent activity (moving commodities, bounty hunting, exploring, etc.).

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

Okay so I was vaguely getting into the idea of elite feet but the last posts have totally turned me back solidly into the NO camp - FDev have more important space centric dynamics to work on IMO that actually add GAME VALUE and I have seen few proposals requiring elite feet that actually ADD VALUE. The only consistent argument is 'It adds depth / colour / social' which, seems like a shallow argument - if I wanted Facebook, I would Facebook not ED. SO back to NO again.

 

[MarcusVatta]

FDev are building ED according to a ten year plan that we don't get a say in, so saying no (and capitalizing it) will not affect whether or not it will be developed, or in what order. So the best case that uninterested players can hope for is a feature that doesn't penalize them if they don't use it. And I think that should be the goal.

The OP was broken into two gategories: GamePlay and Social. I agree that the social areas do not add gameplay elements. That's pretty much the point. The question is: would you ever prefer to hang with virtual representations of your wingmates while you wait for your vulture to get delivered over sitting in the cockpit of your ASP for 20 minutes?

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

answer no. Caps or not caps - its a dreadful idea.