The communists

[ledpup]

Hi all,

Anyone know how the communist societies work in the game? Are they the same as all the others (i.e., like (pre-)existing communist countries) or are they like a potential, future communist society?

Gameplay-wise, the big difference is the market economy (or lack of) at the communist stations. It would be very cool if:

* the commodity market does not exist at a communist station
* fuel and other necessities are free (and rationed)
* the black market is run by federal/imperial infiltrators and corrupt communists trying to re-instate wage labour and the free market
* players can donate/gift cargo to the communists in exchange for reputation and/or ship repairs

Anyways, it probably won't be like that, but I reckon that would be fairly awesome to mix-up gameplay significantly at some star systems. I'd love to arrive somewhere that is genuinely different, rather than just a change in name and numbers.

 

[Rickenbacker]

Would be cool, but I think the communist worlds would still have a trademarket for import/export goods. And the fuel wouldn't be free to imperialist, capitalist outsiders like you and me .

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Thanks and no thanks to media, people really don't know what communists are. They aren't exactly socialists, and not everything is free, especially to outsiders

If true communism is envisioned (and I can't see why some isolated planets couldn't have that), then it means rule by communes. Essentially it means hierarchical rule of worker groups. Open to corruption and petty self-interest of course, but same as any capitalist based formation. Other than that, they have strong self-interest, but they shun private property, so trading with outsiders is how they get major capital for all group. Again, how wealth is spread is interesting discussion

I am really stoked that FD have adedd all these gov types, and I believe we will be surprised how many of those will express themselves in the game, especially with political events. Workers revolution? Happens all the time on Earth.

 

[ledpup]

Thanks and no thanks to media, people really don't know what communists are. They aren't exactly socialists, and not everything is free, especially to outsiders

I have an extremely good idea of what communists are, have been and could be. There are many different meanings of the term. One of them includes what you describe in the rest of your post, but other varieties are quite different (well, completely different). This isn't really the place for that discussion.

I was suggesting something that links in very closely to the existing gameplay without making too many changes to the existing game model (as far as I understand it). I'm not sure that we could propose workers revolutions or anything like that (except as gloss) as from what I can tell, there are no workers. It's definitely not modelled anyway. There are just a bunch of merchants flying around in ships picking commodities cheap and selling high. Could be a really weird pre/post/proto-capitalist society at the moment, for all we know.

I am very pleased that FD may be flirting with different ways of organising society in the future too. I'd like it if it isn't just a reflection of what exists now, however. I'd like it to have very simple yet profound effects on the gameplay when encountering those different societies. I reckon my suggest could do that.

 

[ledpup]

Would be cool, but I think the communist worlds would still have a trademarket for import/export goods. And the fuel wouldn't be free to imperialist, capitalist outsiders like you and me .

Well, there is still the black market that I suggest. A full communist society can't really include a trade market though as there wouldn't be any commodities and, especially, no money commodity. (People only create commodities if they're forced to sell that very special commodity they own, their ability to work. If that relationship doesn't exist, bye bye all other commodities, including money.)

Outsiders, or people trying to subvert the society could try to introduce the market again though.

That would be very cool if highly aligned imperialists and federalists wouldn't get access to free goods! (They could still buy fuel on the black market though!)

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

In the same spirit, if a little off topic, I wonder how anarchist systems will be depicted. The vast majority of people tend to confuse anomy and anarchy, and the latter is never used for what it really is: a philosophy based on social economy in its purest form. Instead, all we get is chaos, disorder, law of the fittest, and such. It's a shame, really, and I certainly hope Elite won't stop there.

 

[Space_Killer69]

♪♫♪♫ Don't leave me this way
I can't survive, I can't stay alive
Without your love, no ♪♫♪♫

I'll get mi coat then

 

[ledpup]

A full communist society can't really include a trade market though as there wouldn't be any commodities and, especially, no money commodity.

Actually, I'm wrong about that - hadn't fully thought it through. You could have a completely communist society internally (within the star system) where any surplus could be traded externally for other external goods, without the money entering the local economy (because there wouldn't be one!) So communist society could conceivably exist with an external market. It's a pretty weird idea, but I reckon that's believable enough to work in the game.

 

[ledpup]

In the same spirit, if a little off topic, I wonder how anarchist systems will be depicted. The vast majority of people tend to confuse anomy and anarchy, and the latter is never used for what it really is: a philosophy based on social economy in its purest form. Instead, all we get is chaos, disorder, law of the fittest, and such. It's a shame, really, and I certainly hope Elite won't stop there.

Oh yes, good point. But both definitions are correct, just different. It does seem like Frontier are only going with the first meaning you mention.

I'd love to see a star where government is anarcho-syndicalist commune! (But I'd love it a lot more if it had some gameplay significance)

 

[wstephenson]

I don't know about theoretical communist utopias as I probably should as a big fan of Banks' Culture novels, so please enlighten me how you'd see this working in your suggested model:

I can imagine a currency-free planned economy working inside the communist society (not used in the sense of star systems), but how does it then interface with other currency-based neighbouring economies? Are all contacts black market in the model you propose, or would there be some kind of state trade mission where the communists can trade their surplus goods/resources for those things the neighbours want to sell using the inconvenient mechanism of hard currency? Your initial description sounds like the communists don't require or don't want to trade.

The Culture doesn't need to trade commodities as they have infinite energy and perfect recycling systems and thus can create/reuse/extract whatever they need or build it atom by atom, but I doubt you're suggesting this kind of ultra-tech communist society for Elite, as its technological superiority would upset the existing societies in the game galaxy.

Although I would not complain about a scripted Outside Context Problem in-game event on Banks' birthday, where a small Culture fleet temporarily ends up somewhere between Federation and Imperial space and their presence severely upsets the powers that be....

 

[Capt. Hook]

I worked a stint for a while working in a hotel kitchen in Shanghai and I can tell you a country may call itself communist but capitalism/fiefdoms still really call the shots.

 

[Darkfyre99]

In the same spirit, if a little off topic, I wonder how anarchist systems will be depicted. The vast majority of people tend to confuse anomy and anarchy, and the latter is never used for what it really is: a philosophy based on social economy in its purest form. Instead, all we get is chaos, disorder, law of the fittest, and such. It's a shame, really, and I certainly hope Elite won't stop there.

It's not surprising. Anomy is the inevitable result when anarchy (properly defined as a lack of rulers) is practiced on a large scale. Like communism, anarchy only works on a small scale, where the social group is small enough to intimately know each other, and informally suppress the behavior of the anti-social and the corrupt.

Once that group grows big enough for them to get away with it, anomy follows anarchy just as corruption follows communism. Eventually enough people get tired of anomy and replace anarchy with some form of government. Or the anti-social or corrupt band together to become rulers themselves.

Which is what I hope to see happen in Elite Dangerous. To see anarchy replaced by actual governments, whether they are a miners' commune, a formal democracy, a corporate oligarchy, or a pirate turned dictator.

Edit: anomy was a term I haven't encountered before, and didn't think to look it up until after I hit post. . It isn't a synonym of chaos, apparently, but a lack of moral guidance by society. Please mentally edit my above post.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

It's not surprising. Anomy is the inevitable result when anarchy (properly defined as a lack of rulers) is practiced on a large scale. Like communism, anarchy only works on a small scale, where the social group is small enough to intimately know each other, and informally suppress the behavior of the anti-social and the corrupt.

Once that group grows big enough for them to get away with it, anomy follows anarchy just as corruption follows communism. Eventually enough people get tired of anomy and replace anarchy with some form of government. Or the anti-social or corrupt band together to become rulers themselves.

Which is what I hope to see happen in Elite Dangerous. To see anarchy replaced by actual governments, whether they are a miners' commune, a formal democracy, a corporate oligarchy, or a pirate turned dictator.

Edit: anomy was a term I haven't encountered before, and didn't think to look it up until after I hit post. . It isn't a synonym of chaos, apparently, but a lack of moral guidance by society. Please mentally edit my above post.

(I'm french, so it's rather complicated for me to discuss such subjects in english, I apologise for that in advance.)

That's an open debate, and will remain pure speculation for as long as actual anarchism (and communism, for that matter) doctrin has not been applied. You rely too much on the word etymology, and not on the actual philosophy. Anarchism and communism are both doctrins of true social order. They take different path for that matter. To be (very) crude, communism emphasis the victory of the majority class, its legitimate take over on every kind of production means and facility, and thus prophetize the end of history as a mean to evolve. Anarchism is more economic-centered. There were many thinkers but the Marx of anarchism is Proudhon. He defined property (in its current, out of nowhere divinish right nature) as illegitimate and misused. The social doctrin that follow that statement is a result of it, not the goal. Therefore, the lack of government in a anarchist society is not by will to get rid of it, but simply because it has no purpose.

Both philosophies have in common that they are indeed perceived as confronting straight ahead human individualism. Truth is, they confront capitalism. Which, despite not being anything close to a philosophy, has become our ruler by fact. And, as any good dictator out there, it invaded every aspect of our lives, including education. Education that makes us say, today, that communism and anarchism are not viable. While proving more and more everyday that it is itself (capitalism) an utter failure, on social level.

I find this would be fascinating to experiment in a place such as Elite. The ways to do so are still blurry, but there is the ideal terrain, I believe.

 

[Fenris Wolf]

What about a Communist system, but with a Space Station that is used as the only contact for the 'outside'.

Kinda like 'Hong Kong' was for China. (for a while)

 

[ledpup]

Your initial description sounds like the communists don't require or don't want to trade.

I was initially thinking that they don't need to trade, yes. Assuming wage labour has been eliminated - the key component of a fully communist society, IMO - there is no need for commodities. But that's not the same thing as saying unlimited energy. It's just a different way of organising society. A society without dispossessed people.

Capitalist societies are defined by the existence of free labour. I.e., people that are free from the "terrible burden" of owning land and the tools needed to survive. They need to sell their ability to work instead. A communist society could be one where people aren't forced to work for other people, but use machines cooperatively to create the necessary goods for life. But that's not the same as unlimited resources. They may be materially poor compared to capitalist societies (which I assume the federation/alliance/imperialists are). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they were materially poor. But materially poor doesn't equal the need or desire to trade. Take Star Trek as an example. They don't have commodities or waged labour, nor do they have unlimited resources. (They're just massively militarised and super weird!)

If you look at humanities' past, for example, for the vast bulk of the time we've existed on this planet, there was no trade, no waged labour and therefore no capitalism. After that, slavery, waged labour and artisans/merchants sprung up around the same time. Nowadays slavery is not as prominent and artisans basically don't exist. Waged labour (i.e., capitalism) has triumphed.

So, I think my original suggestion is still the most interesting gameplay wise. You turn up at a station and it's quite different. You can't sell your commodities, but you can gift them. The communists will like you if you do. You can try to undermine them by doing some black market activity. You could take missions with them for no monetary benefit (just reputation/rank/coolness benefit). You could turn up in a massive fleet to restore the market!!!

It's just an idea. If we have the market everywhere that there is civilization, it's just incredibly banal. It would be cool to mix it up a bit. And it doesn't have to be in many systems. Not enough that it would affect the game model overly. Just a cool site to go and see and hang out in, like all the fantastic stuff that is already in there.

 

[ledpup]

What about a Communist system, but with a Space Station that is used as the only contact for the 'outside'.

Kinda like 'Hong Kong' was for China. (for a while)

Yes, that's sort of like what other people have already suggested. But other than the name ("Communist System") how is it actually any different from any other system? It's not like you'll ever be able to go and chat with people to ask them how they live. Okay, maybe you will, but it'll just be gloss, which is cool I guess, but I'd like a functional distinction. A way in which the gameplay changes, even if it's just the simple things I suggested in the OP.

 

[ledpup]

I worked a stint for a while working in a hotel kitchen in Shanghai and I can tell you a country may call itself communist but capitalism/fiefdoms still really call the shots.

Oh definitely. It is/was a form of communism, the version that is accepted as the form, but also indistinguishable from capitalism on a functional level. Even the Spanish anarchists didn't manage to even start to get away from capitalism and they were much more intent on doing so than the Chinese or Russians.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yes, that's sort of like what other people have already suggested. But other than the name ("Communist System") how is it actually any different from any other system? It's not like you'll ever be able to go and chat with people to ask them how they live. Okay, maybe you will, but it'll just be gloss, which is cool I guess, but I'd like a functional distinction. A way in which the gameplay changes, even if it's just the simple things I suggested in the OP.

Such system would require less luxury items and such items could be even banned there....but could generate special missions where some corrupt power figures might pay a fortune to get illegal luxury stuff to communist system.

We don't know fully how background sim measures and what values identify communist system, so demand/supply algorithm in background sim can chew them and throw out interesting missions ....so I think there's more just a name. It has to...otherwise I would think FD is kinda lazy for not picking this very long hanging fruit

 

[natte hond]

you see all around the world that communism has failed.
so why should it still be around?
the only successful communism is in china but it never was truly a communist state.
free trade was never abandoned there.
in away I can see them grow into the imperials together with the russian states.
and the democratic states into the federal s
only other force that should be added in my opinion are the fanatic religious.
and the independents are a logical step.

 

[ledpup]

We don't know fully how background sim measures and what values identify communist system, so demand/supply algorithm in background sim can chew them and throw out interesting missions ....so I think there's more just a name. It has to...otherwise I would think FD is kinda lazy for not picking this very long hanging fruit

You make that sound very appealing. I'm in for all that! The more the variety, the better, I guess. Just as there are many forms of religion and capitalism, it would be cool to see some systems adopt zero trade zones and others be external trade only and others be just straight out dictatorships that are communist in name only.

It beefs up the complexity somewhat, but you could really start to see a lot of emergent gameplay.