It feels like someone is doing their job wrong

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Jex =TE=

Banned
But that's the point. I don't think there is a universal definition of depth. That's what I am trying to explain.

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You. missed. the. point.

BTW
Zambrick, you are talking a lot about me for someone who claims to ignore me...

LOL ok anybody saying chess "is just moving pieces" doesn't play chess and you obviously never had so don't use it as an example.

2nd, when it comes to gameplay yes, there is a definition of depth. We've told you what that is, over and over. How many times to you want the door to hit you in your face?
 
He hasn't been abusive yet, that's usually my ignore button time. If he wants to make stupid arguments and have them highlighted then I'd say that's more......



sadomasachism?

Perhaps?

I just dont want the thread to be closed as is the obvious intent of Babelfisch. I think this is a thread that should grow and should be observed by FDEV. That wont happen if the likes of babelfisch has his or her way. So instead of risking it I ignore he or she.
 
No it didn't. I think we can both agree trading is shallow as shallow can be. So think of ED as a colelction of mini games available in a big playing area. We got trading - shallow, Combat Zones - Shallow, HAZRES - Shallow, Exploration - Shallow and thwen they addd Powerplay - Shallow. All these game types are disconnected too. They're all shallow - there's nothing deep about PP just like there's nothing deep about Trading.

You can think there is if you like but we can demonstrate that PP is just as shallow as the other minigame options we have to choose from.

Sorry, but the post you quoted wasn't directed to you. Anyway, as said before, I agree with you. I don't like it either.

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All this talk about depth and we forget one important thing. Is it interesting/fun?

PP simply isn't interesting since it is the same actions of the game recycled towards a different purpose. It does not add interesting ways to interact with your ship, faction, and the galaxy. There is nothing to compel you to join one power or another as they are all, basically, the same with different numbers in the spreadsheet.

Did adding PP actually require anyone to learn anything new (other than some basic rules) and master?

To me, Planet landing did more for this game than any update so far, because it actually added new activities that created new scenarios and challenges.

A in-game trade tool that didn't just show you the best trades but actually hid them behind something you had to figure out (rather than just the mostly aimless search w/o off-game tools we have now) would be pretty neat. Perhaps gaining intel on different factions and chasing down leads could reveal things to you...people would have to learn and get good at something like that.

Mining that is more than just point and click resource gathering...perhaps requiring you to learn how to identify the best rocks to mine through visual/audio cues.

Engage my senses and my intellect, please, Frontier!

Exactly!
 
All this talk about depth and we forget one important thing. Is it interesting/fun?

PP simply isn't interesting since it is the same actions of the game recycled towards a different purpose. It does not add interesting ways to interact with your ship, faction, and the galaxy. There is nothing to compel you to join one power or another as they are all, basically, the same with different numbers in the spreadsheet.

Did adding PP actually require anyone to learn anything new (other than some basic rules) and master?

To me, Planet landing did more for this game than any update so far, because it actually added new activities that created new scenarios and challenges.

A in-game trade tool that didn't just show you the best trades but actually hid them behind something you had to figure out (rather than just the mostly aimless search w/o off-game tools we have now) would be pretty neat. Perhaps gaining intel on different factions and chasing down leads could reveal things to you...people would have to learn and get good at something like that.

Mining that is more than just point and click resource gathering...perhaps requiring you to learn how to identify the best rocks to mine through visual/audio cues.

Engage my senses and my intellect, please, Frontier!

Very good post.

Fun and Engaging matter. It's why combat is so very good, and the rest...So very drab.

Mining, well...It added complexity. Not fun, mind, just complexity.

Constantly shuffling through your minerals and flushing to make room might be interactive, but that doesn't make it fun or engaging. Sort of like docking requests that way. But at least the latter can be macro'd to a voice command. Thank God.

Mining I just find utterly tedious.

But yeah...FDev needs a fun first focus. Forget the Time Sink design philosophy. That's going to kill this game, long term. Find the fun or turn development over to someone who can.
 
No it isn't. Everyone else here understands what I'm saying it's you that doesn't understand us. This is apparent because you keep getting everyone else's posts wrong too.

It's 3 people, not everyone else.

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LOL ok anybody saying chess "is just moving pieces" doesn't play chess and you obviously never had so don't use it as an example.

That's not what I said. You missed the point I was trying to make. You don't understand me. Please read my other posts where I said how Chess requires strategy.
BTW
I played chess for years.
 
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Jex =TE=

Banned
I don't want to be the hero. I'm not looking to be the savior of the galaxy, or rescue a princess and achieve fame and fortune, or to even get my name into the Galnet daily newspaper. The depth I would like to see is in career choices. An actual path to be blazed.

An example: being a professional Bounty Hunter. Earn 10 million credits turning in vouchers to the Empire and having a friendly+ rating with them, I can obtain an overpriced BH license, with perks and benefits such as being free to destroy any wanted ship within Imperial systems. Don't have to scan first any more. If I scan the fugitive (in any system) and they have an Imperial bounty, I get a bonus payout when I cash it in. Features similar to this that make me feel like I'm actually moving up the ladder of my chosen profession.

Currently it feels like all I we can be in the game is a freelancer, a subcontractor or a space thug. I still find it odd that the original Elite almost didn't get released because all the publishers that Braben and Bell showed the game to add them to add time limits and a high score, yet rewards in the new Elite is almost nothing but time limits (missions, PP, CG) and high scores (faction ratings, reaching Elite status).

I'd just like to make a point here.

Everybody knows the follow people

Bill Gates
Mark Zuckerberg
Elon Musk

BUT HOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? OMGZ!!!

we're in a world of 7 BILLION people!

LOL ok so my point is, if you amass billions of credits, you fight in wars, become highest rank in both navy's, go and take on thargoids then sorry but it goes against reality NOT to be known. Just like we all know George Lucas, Stephen Spielberg etc, you would be known too.

Maybe not galaxy wide but in the system you live it? Of course you'd be known.
 

Jenner

I wish I was English like my hero Tj.
A gentle reminder to people to please stay on topic. ie-no badgering/harassing posters please. Use the 'ignore' feature or simply move along. No need to discuss who is and who is not being constructive. If something violates forum rules then report it.

Thanks.
 
So think of ED as a colelction of mini games available in a big playing area.

essentially every game made by frontier after RCT3 is exactly that.
"Collection of minigames" is a very common phrase in reviews of FD games

for the last 10 years they have been pushing out bargain bin titles for children, the only core game they were trying to develop was cancelled at a very late stage, probably because the publisher saw the same things we see in elite today. The same things Ian said about David`s game design back in the days.

I got fooled by David`s talk when he was all nice in his jumpers, but i should have known better, B tier team is B tier, they were in the gutter of gaming industry for years, and now they are trying to play with the big boys but it seems its too much for them

I lost my hopes for this game long time ago. I`m just observing at this point. Its fun to see how they fail each and every time and all the nonsense the fanboys can come up with to fight for FD`s honour. Honour.... If they had any honour than Top backers like Liqua would not get the middle finger they got.. How pathetic is the digital art book we got... Its like an hour of work and we had to wait for it for over a year, because supposedly they wanted it to be of the highest quality... 60 MB poorly designed leaflet with low res jpegs... year late.. That`s FD quality.

As someone said. In the late 90`s I was all for David when it came to Ian VS DB quarrel and Acornsoft VS DB thing that supposedly was the reason for the rushed bug ridden release. Today i think that DB is a man that puts his own business above all else, and is a dream seller full of vanity and pride, not at all different in that regard to Chriss Roberts

Not a first role model of my youth who disappointed me. Another one bites the dust
 
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Jools, harsh as it seems, you're probably correct. I don't hold out much hope.

I mean, this is free to play game design in a full price game. Time Sinks only exist in ftp because you sell ways around them. Unethical and abusive, but it is a thing.

This level of time sink in a full price game with no shortcuts just turns people off. All of which is just my way of saying: the design direction doesn't even fit the type of game under development. It literally makes no sense.
 
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I'd just like to make a point here.

Everybody knows the follow people

Bill Gates
Mark Zuckerberg
Elon Musk

BUT HOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? OMGZ!!!

we're in a world of 7 BILLION people!

LOL ok so my point is, if you amass billions of credits, you fight in wars, become highest rank in both navy's, go and take on thargoids then sorry but it goes against reality NOT to be known. Just like we all know George Lucas, Stephen Spielberg etc, you would be known too.

Maybe not galaxy wide but in the system you live it? Of course you'd be known.

That is very true. Yes I can understand not being the leader of the Galaxy, but a little notoriety can go a long way when dealing with immersion into the game universe. Now I posted in another thread about griefing earlier today. It seems that the crime and punishment thing is going to be real some day.

Since we can have no effect on the bubble it really does not mean much. I introduced the idea to be able to change the security status of a system. I also asked that the C&P aspect be realistic. So no landing in star ports in legal systems. Loss of ships parked in legal systems and larger and larger insurance buy backs. There has to be a risk.

With the introduction of being able to change and or control a system security status, it can introduce some very deep meaningful RTS mechanics into the game. The caveat being that you can only make changes to the security status while in open mode. BGS changes can and would mean something beyond a scripted war, boom, or outbreak scenario. You can in sense help shape the galaxy to your liking. However you cannot and should not be able to do it on your own. A community effort would need to be put forth to make those changes to system security. That would go a long way into making the game more engaging without adding a story.
But who knows.

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Jools, harsh as it seems, you're probably correct. I don't hold out much hope.

I mean, this is free to play game design in a full price game. Time Sinks only exist in ftp because you sell ways around them. Unethical and abusive, but it is a thing.

This level of time sink in a full price game with no shortcuts just turns people off. All of which is just my way of saying: the design direction doesn't even fit the type of game under development. It literally makes no sense.

Nah to be honest though this is really the exact same model that Guild Wars and Neverwinter nights follows. With the difference being you can pay to win in those games. You cant here. I am not saying this game is worthless nor is to be scorned. However it does need to improve its image and actually give people something to do besides the base mechanics.
 

Rafe Zetter

Banned
I’d like to argue against this, but it’s hard to given Frontier’s actions and update history. In one of the latest livestreams the absolute most enthusiastic Sandro ever got was while talking about potential micro transaction revenue streams from the 2.3 update. He had lots to say about the commander creator and the DLC for it and even visibly got excited when speaking about it. Questions about most actual game issues were met with either a “no comment” or a “never thought about it” or even a “maybe someday”, some of these questions were extremely common ones amongst the players too. What this behavior says to me is that Frontier is more concerned with keeping the shareholders happy than making the paying customers happy. I might be wrong, but based on what I see, this is how it appears.

Sadly my impression of the game’s development seems to mesh fluently with Frontier’s actual development history on Elite thus far; preferring to work on marketable shiny new features to generate sales and revenue rather than game mechanics for the people playing the game. Updates go live with a plethora of known bugs, features get reduced in scope to improve release dates, broken or unpopular features continue to be neglected to instead work on brand new features. Actions speak louder than words sometimes.

That’s not to say that there haven’t been some great new things added to Elite since 1.0, there have been, it’s just that they’ve been the exception rather than the norm. The dedication of dev resources has seemed very slanted in one direction while neglecting others. From an art and sound point of view Elite’s development has been outstanding, top notch in the industry honestly, but from a game mechanics or gameplay point of view it has been less than stellar and oddly often misdirected compared to what the game really needs.

It makes me feel like Elite is a football team of best in league superstar players you are KIDDING right? the best in league guys will be working on SC if they have more than 3 brain cells to rub together being led by a first year rookie high school coach. Sure now and then a player will make a great play due to skill and heart alone, but overall the plays being called are keeping them from ever making the playoffs, let alone the Superbowl…

I've said it before and I'm going to say it again:

FDev KNOWS the moment SC goes "gold / live" ED will be virtually dead in the water, regardless of graphics, regardless of bugs, because SC has MORE; MORE of EVERYTHING, and no, Mr White Knight, 400 million planets do not a game make if 99.9999%rec of them are the same and have no bases and nothing to make you want to go there other than "just because".

FDev are scrabbling to make the most of SC's extended dev time to open the game to the console market, because SC won't (if ever) be on a console and it'll be the only place ED will continue to be played after SC takes over the PC space sim market; that plus "implement" some of the various promises made in the KS so they can justify thier multiyear plan and don't get thier asses sued into oblivion for false advertising, regardless of any EULA changes after the fact.

FDev gambled the farm on getting a lot more on the KS funding than they did, but didn't set the bar so high that people thought "they are asking too much, they won't get it so I'll not contribute" and the truth is - if they had asked for double what they had, likely the KS would have failed altogether; from memory the KS was fully funded with only a few weeks left.
 
I've said it before and I'm going to say it again:

FDev KNOWS the moment SC goes "gold / live" ED will be virtually dead in the water, regardless of graphics, regardless of bugs, because SC has MORE; MORE of EVERYTHING, and no, Mr White Knight, 400 million planets do not a game make if 99.9999%rec of them are the same and have no bases and nothing to make you want to go there other than "just because".

FDev are scrabbling to make the most of SC's extended dev time to open the game to the console market, because SC won't (if ever) be on a console and it'll be the only place ED will continue to be played after SC takes over the PC space sim market; that plus "implement" some of the various promises made in the KS so they can justify thier multiyear plan and don't get thier asses sued into oblivion for false advertising, regardless of any EULA changes after the fact.

FDev gambled the farm on getting a lot more on the KS funding than they did, but didn't set the bar so high that people thought "they are asking too much, they won't get it so I'll not contribute" and the truth is - if they had asked for double what they had, likely the KS would have failed altogether; from memory the KS was fully funded with only a few weeks left.

and that is a big assumption....i guess time will tell
 
Engage my senses and my intellect, please, Frontier!

This.

I had an epiphany in another thread regarding the swear filter. I was pondering its aggressive nature when it occurred to me that the game is designed to be playable by a 5 year old, hence the super aggressive swear filter. Nothing in the game will ever be designed in such a way that a 5 year old mind cannot get to grips with it. This realisation has changed my entire approach to the game. It's a simple "ooh look, I'm flying a spaceship, weee, pewpewpew!" game, no more, no less. A sad realisation, but I can finally put ED down knowing that the next big update isn't likely to bring anything of interest to me personally.
 
FDev KNOWS the moment SC goes "gold / live" ED will be virtually dead in the water, regardless of graphics, regardless of bugs, because SC has MORE; MORE of EVERYTHING, and no, Mr White Knight, 400 million planets do not a game make if 99.9999%rec of them are the same and have no bases and nothing to make you want to go there other than "just because".

FDev are scrabbling to make the most of SC's extended dev time to open the game to the console market, because SC won't (if ever) be on a console and it'll be the only place ED will continue to be played after SC takes over the PC space sim market; that plus "implement" some of the various promises made in the KS so they can justify thier multiyear plan and don't get thier asses sued into oblivion for false advertising, regardless of any EULA changes after the fact.

Possibly. I agree that if both Elite and SC continue on their current trajectories then SC will be the better game when it comes out. I had no interest at all in SC until recently, my disappointment in Elite’s development has prompted me to start looking at other space sims coming down the line and I’ve been impressed with what they have so far, and with what their development roadmap is forecasting (imagine that, an actual public roadmap!!!). I still prefer the look of Elite honestly, especially the ship designs, but gameplay and mechanics (depth) are more important to me than graphics.

However, it does not have to be this way. The Elite franchise has a large and devoted fanbase spanning decades, both games can coexist together. Elite has the potential to carve out it’s own place and thrive, but in order to do that Frontier needs to start making it a good game first and a feature rich game second. Their current strategy is not sustainable, at some point the lack of depth is going to greatly curtail the new feature potential. It might have happened already, as Multicrew is a prime example of exactly that.

I keep stating that Frontier is building houses on top of foundations which were never finished, and if they keep doing so then their house is going to collapse in on itself. Finish the foundation, THEN build the rooms of the house. Which, brings us back to what the OP was originally talking about: design direction.
 
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In a nutshell, Frontier is developing new features instead of fleshing out the base game first. They continually ignore developing the core features of the game to instead tack on additional features over a lacking base game construct. The result is why Elite has the “mile wide but inch deep” meme attached to it. The majority of the game itself has not changed much at all since 1.0, there have just been some additional features added to the already barebones main game, the majority of which are combat features. It’s why you (and many others) feel like the game is stagnant and hasn’t changed in a long time, because truthfully, the main mechanics of the game have not changed in a long time.

Now, is this a result of bad design choices, or is it intentional on Frontier’s end? That’s a question that we the players can’t truly answer, only Frontier can.

I personally wish that Frontier would change course and improve the game’s foundations before building new houses upon half finished foundations….

Yeah, the optimist in me wants to believe that they're aware now. I think they painted themselves into a corner by outlining 4 updates worth at the start of the season. In fact, the season model seems to have been a bad idea anyway, it's not Battlefield. And hopefully they see that now if Braby Baby's comments on the AMA are anything to go by.

I think they got design drunk on the emergent wave of mobile/MMO/F2P/monetization/Season Pass -stuff- that's pervaded the video games market over the last 7 years or so.. But it's kinda like they bought the wrong manual, they ended up with a backwards Ikea bookshelf. Or maybe we kind of needed a table and chairs and so it's just awkward now. Beautiful wood though.

Which is probably OK, assuming they've figured it out at this stage.

Oh, and hire a dedicated Galnet writer please! The newspapers in FFE were outstanding! (Actually, this is a very good idea; have Galnet competitors with different spin on the same events)
 
Possibly. I agree that if both Elite and SC continue on their current trajectories then SC will be the better game when it comes out. I had no interest at all in SC until recently, my disappointment in Elite’s development has prompted me to start looking at other space sims coming down the line and I’ve been impressed with what they have so far, and with what their development roadmap is forecasting (imagine that, an actual public roadmap!!!). I still prefer the look of Elite honestly, especially the ship designs, but gameplay and mechanics (depth) are more important to me than graphics.

However, it does not have to be this way. The Elite franchise has a large and devoted fanbase spanning decades, both games can coexist together. Elite has the potential to carve out it’s own place and thrive, but in order to do that Frontier needs to start making it a good game first and a feature rich game second. Their current strategy is not sustainable, at some point the lack of depth is going to greatly curtail the new feature potential. It might have happened already, as Multicrew is a prime example of exactly that.

I keep stating that Frontier is building houses on top of foundations which were never finished, and if they keep doing so then their house is going to collapse in on itself. Finish the foundation, THEN build the rooms of the house. Which, brings us back to what the OP was originally talking about: design direction.

Design direction is an issue.

Right now the game is clearly governed by a free to play design philosophy. Namely, Time Sink the player. Retention through repetition fraught with wait walls to inflate time Requirements.

Trouble is, free to play monetizes this. Elite does not.

It makes.np sense here. This game needs a design direction suited to it.
 
Design direction is an issue.

Right now the game is clearly governed by a free to play design philosophy. Namely, Time Sink the player. Retention through repetition fraught with wait walls to inflate time Requirements.

Trouble is, free to play monetizes this. Elite does not.

It makes.np sense here. This game needs a design direction suited to it.

and what direction is that?.... i guess opinions will be different :p
 
V’larr, I can’t tell if you are being contrarian for the fun of it or if you honestly don’t know what “depth” means when everyone keeps asking for it with regards to Elite, so allow me to educate you on it’s meaning. Maybe then you won’t be so confused and can join the conversation with something meaningful to add.

The term “depth” in the video game industry refers to a combination of gameplay elements and mechanics which players must take into consideration while playing. More choices enable more player decisions, resulting in an engaging yet varied gameplay experience. Most developers strive to design mechanics with enough complexity so that new players can take advantage of the more obvious mechanics while experienced players can consider many mechanics, thereby allowing many choices and paths to “victory” conditions as you master the game. This complexity allows players to develop plans and strategies several steps ahead on how they want to play and what they want to do, hopefully producing unexpected and surprising outcomes thereby keeping the game feeling fresh and varied. This level of design is called “depth”.

For example, chess has depth, while tic tac toe does not.

With regards to Elite, when people ask for more depth to the game, they usually mean more connected mechanics that not only allow more choices during gameplay but can result in a larger variety of meaningful results and outcomes. Exploration is jump, honk, and scan, over and over. It is terribly basic in it’s game mechanics. Trading is buy low, sell high, but there are no tools to utilize, no mechanics to add unpredictability or complexity to the profession. Combat by it’s very nature has some complexity and variety simply due to the random nature of the opponents, but the mechanics of combat within the game’s environment are disconnected and predictable. CZ’s are always the same, HRES sites are always the same, except for a little variety in ship opponent types. There isn’t any meaningful bounty hunting mechanic short of “look for a wanted ship and kill it”. It’s this disconnected nature of Elite’s design that greatly reduces it’s “depth”. The game is comprised of a lot of separate modules that don’t really interact in meaningful ways, thereby preventing any feeling of depth. And this can be attributed straight to the game’s core mechanics, the features which make up the foundation of all other features. This core is basic and very lacking, has been since 1.0, thus the lack of depth and the constant complaints from players that the game is “a mile wide but an inch deep.”

Elite needs better core mechanics to allow greater complexity and unpredictability during gameplay, to enable more player choices and responses to stimuli, to permit players to make multi-level plans which might have to be altered along the way due to surprising mechanic interactions. Without deep mechanics a game feels sterile and predictable, boring, and this is where Elite is today for a lot of people. The core mechanics need to develop or this lack of “depth” will kill player interest over time. Some would argue it’s already begun to kill player interest.

So yeah, the often repeated saying “Elite needs more depth” most certainly has meaning V’larr. Do you understand it now?

I've been trying to explain it myself. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that anything I come up with is good enough. It's turning into a grind vs no-grind argument. I guess depth is just in our minds too. Maybe if I imagine harder, the game will be magically deep at every corner, it will all come together.
 
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Well, grind or not - Elite always was a very time consuming game, in all versions. Since there is nothing to "win" in Elite, the time-consumption "grind"-argument can fairly be ignored until there is something to achieve in all states of the game. A steady/constant progress (curve) is WAY more important than reaching a target to soon.

And - by all Frontier Bashing - please look how things slowly come together - starting with an already finished 3d-ship-interieur at release time 2014, now the commander-editor and so on... the game is clearly designed in a modular way and some of those are coming together hopefully sooner than later.

But I am still confident that we need more guys to run the story, either in a GameMaster-Style or by having some possibilities to inject events into the game. Example: GameMaster is able to put 100 canisters of Gold on a distant planet, or a ship wreckage that has to be searched and so on - of course with decent achievements for the community. And so on - we discussed that years ago already.
 
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