It feels like someone is doing their job wrong

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babelfisch

babelfisch
Blackcompany said:
And what changes if you DO stop supporting a power? The name on map? So what.

Chess is deep because your resources are limited, your every move risks losing those resources and the game hinges on every decision you make. Every change that occurs, can make yours or your opponent's resources more scarce, improve or worsen the Tactical situation and even decide the game.

Elite is shallow because nothing has consequences. So you stopped support for a power. Flipped sides in a war. Shot down a secuirty ship. So what?

It doesn't matter. None of it matters. You aren't at risk. The factions you betray, still welcome you into their stations. Outside of.moment to moment combat where your ship.is at risk nothing you do in Elite matters.

Now, contrast that with EVE. Where you can build ships to supply the market, help horde resources to provoke war to drive up the cost of your ships to increase your income...Where everything you do stays with you.

Or to Chess. Where each move can further limit both resources and options.

To Poker. Very limited resources. Seven cards, your knowledge of odds and your skill at bluffing. Real stakes.

That's depth. That's what Elite lacks.
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I see that you don't want to or can't understand me. I've done my best to explain it, seems like it's not enough. Keep in mind though, I actually agree that Powerplay is crap and that ED lacks lots of mechanics. Powerplay added depth, it just didn't make the game better, which is why I believe "add more depth" isn't as much a universal argument as some people think. I just don't agree with your definition of depth.
 
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Jex =TE=

Banned
J
babelfisch said:
So just like players can filter the galaxy map for different powers and see where action is needed. This enables interaction and decisions.

But wait, the example doesn't count because nobody likes it.
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You're contradicting yourself and not making sense...here's an example from the last page....

Originally Posted by Blackcompany View Post (Source)
Stop taking the bait, folks. You're asking people to explain where they see depth, but the ones you're asking aren't going to provide an answer.

Start hitting down forum user names. Research post history. They're here to defend the game. It's literally their job. That's become obvious by now.

When they can point out the depth, show me where it comes from, I might believe otherwise. But until then, based on history, I will not engage with anyone else whose literal job on the forums is to protest, bury or pointlessly refute without substance Actual Criticisms.

Just ignore it.

Bablefisch SAID:
I just explained it, but it's easier for you to ignore it and call me a paid fanboy instead. I also provided lots of criticism, both here and in many other threads. Actually I criticised the game a few posts ago. Maybe everyone just needs to read what others have to say without deliberately trying not to understand them.
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If you just explained depth, why are you now saying that a galaxy filter doesn't count? Then you add

"I am not against depth!!"

I never said you were, you seem not to get what depth is however. The galaxy filter on it's own doesn't make anyything deep but what if we took away the galaxy filter - would that hurt gameplay? You need a combination of gadets to use to interact with assets in the game to achieve decision making moments and there also needs to be some meaning behind it.

Take The Forest - why do I chop down a hundred trees? It take 13 slow shops to do it - about 20 seconds a tree perhaps. At the end of it though I get a log house, or I make defensive walls. I decide where these things go - I plan the base, I have to consider food water and resources which meant having to scout for a good location which meant having to creep around to avoid being spotted which meant I started finding new resources and animals and oh, now I can make lizard leaf camo armour....... See how the gadgets and assets work together to give me a ton of decisions? Do I set up food and water reserves first or do I try and get weapons and armour or do i build? When do I explore? When is night time coming? This immerses you into the game because you're mostly thinking about what your next steps are going to be, you're "into" the game because there's depth for you to stick your head under the surface.
 

babelfisch

babelfisch
Jex =TE= said:
You're contradicting yourself and not making sense...here's an example from the last page....



If you just explained depth, why are you now saying that a galaxy filter doesn't count? Then you add

"I am not against depth!!"

I never said you were, you seem not to get what depth is however. The galaxy filter on it's own doesn't make anyything deep but what if we took away the galaxy filter - would that hurt gameplay? You need a combination of gadets to use to interact with assets in the game to achieve decision making moments and there also needs to be some meaning behind it.

Take The Forest - why do I chop down a hundred trees? It take 13 slow shops to do it - about 20 seconds a tree perhaps. At the end of it though I get a log house, or I make defensive walls. I decide where these things go - I plan the base, I have to consider food water and resources which meant having to scout for a good location which meant having to creep around to avoid being spotted which meant I started finding new resources and animals and oh, now I can make lizard leaf camo armour....... See how the gadgets and assets work together to give me a ton of decisions? Do I set up food and water reserves first or do I try and get weapons and armour or do i build? When do I explore? When is night time coming? This immerses you into the game because you're mostly thinking about what your next steps are going to be, you're "into" the game because there's depth for you to stick your head under the surface.
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Sorry, but it's actually your post that doesn't make sense. Sure you got these quotes right?!
 

Blackcompany

Banned
B
iFred said:
Chess is also miles deeper because you are bound to a side. Not as in Elite, where you can basically support both sides of a conflict without having to fear any consequences. This is also the main reason why Powerplay failed so much imho.
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Exactly.

I like to compare Fantasy Flight card games and magic to games made by small companies like Small Box Games.

FF or MTG can offer you hundreds of cards in a format. Each usually does ONE thing. Boring and predictable but has mass appeal because it's easy to learn.

Small Box has a more limited budget and does not ski.p on Art. So you might buy a game with, say, 90 cards. Total.

But the depth in those 90 cards is amazing. Each card can fight for you over turns. Or provide a single powerful effect once. Or be used as a resource. Every decision matters, and commits you to a strategy that has an effect on the rest of a game.

That's depth.

Elite is an arcade game with Wait Walls and tacked on time sinks.
 

Zambrick

Zambrick
Jex =TE= said:
You're contradicting yourself and not making sense...here's an example from the last page....



If you just explained depth, why are you now saying that a galaxy filter doesn't count? Then you add

"I am not against depth!!"

I never said you were, you seem not to get what depth is however. The galaxy filter on it's own doesn't make anyything deep but what if we took away the galaxy filter - would that hurt gameplay? You need a combination of gadets to use to interact with assets in the game to achieve decision making moments and there also needs to be some meaning behind it.

Take The Forest - why do I chop down a hundred trees? It take 13 slow shops to do it - about 20 seconds a tree perhaps. At the end of it though I get a log house, or I make defensive walls. I decide where these things go - I plan the base, I have to consider food water and resources which meant having to scout for a good location which meant having to creep around to avoid being spotted which meant I started finding new resources and animals and oh, now I can make lizard leaf camo armour....... See how the gadgets and assets work together to give me a ton of decisions? Do I set up food and water reserves first or do I try and get weapons and armour or do i build? When do I explore? When is night time coming? This immerses you into the game because you're mostly thinking about what your next steps are going to be, you're "into" the game because there's depth for you to stick your head under the surface.
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You can do as I did. Babelfisch has no reason to post other than to oppose the last poster. Regardless as to his or her stance. Flip flopping, fighting and derailing the thread is he or she's only goal.

Just put them on ignore as I have. Its very liberating and you wont be missing out on anything. I have as of yet been able to find a post from that person that is of any merit. In this thread or otherwise.
 
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Blackcompany

Banned
B
Zambrick said:
You can do as I did. Babelfisch has no reason to post other than to oppose the last poster. Regardless as to his or her stance. Flip flopping, fighting and derailing the thread is he or she's only goal.

Just put them on ignore as I have. Its very liberating and you wont be missing out on anything. I have as of yet been able to find a post from that person that is of any merit. In this thread or otherwise.
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Did the same. I really tried to have a conversation, but the Constant "you're wrong because I say you're wrong" did it for me.

The game observably lacks depth. The mile wide/inch deep thing is all over the web about Elite. Here. Reddit. PcGamer comments. Steam Discussions. It's the most common knock on the game.
 

babelfisch

babelfisch
Blackcompany said:
Did the same. I really tried to have a conversation, but the Constant "you're wrong because I say you're wrong" did it for me.

The game observably lacks depth. The mile wide/inch deep thing is all over the web about Elite. Here. Reddit. PcGamer comments. Steam Discussions. It's the most common knock on the game.
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Look, part of ignoring me is also to stop talking about me.
Anyway, I never said that Elite doesn't lack depth.
 
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Jex =TE=

Banned
J
babelfisch said:
I see that you don't want to or can't understand me. I've done my best to explain it, seems like it's not enough. Keep in mind though, I actually agree that Powerplay is crap and that ED lacks lots of mechanics. Powerplay added depth, it just didn't make the game better, which is why I believe "add more depth" isn't as much a universal argument as some people think. I just don't agree with your definition of depth.
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No it didn't. I think we can both agree trading is shallow as shallow can be. So think of ED as a colelction of mini games available in a big playing area. We got trading - shallow, Combat Zones - Shallow, HAZRES - Shallow, Exploration - Shallow and thwen they addd Powerplay - Shallow. All these game types are disconnected too. They're all shallow - there's nothing deep about PP just like there's nothing deep about Trading.

You can think there is if you like but we can demonstrate that PP is just as shallow as the other minigame options we have to choose from.
 

Monk

Monk
All this talk about depth and we forget one important thing. Is it interesting/fun?

PP simply isn't interesting since it is the same actions of the game recycled towards a different purpose. It does not add interesting ways to interact with your ship, faction, and the galaxy. There is nothing to compel you to join one power or another as they are all, basically, the same with different numbers in the spreadsheet.

Did adding PP actually require anyone to learn anything new (other than some basic rules) and master?

To me, Planet landing did more for this game than any update so far, because it actually added new activities that created new scenarios and challenges.

A in-game trade tool that didn't just show you the best trades but actually hid them behind something you had to figure out (rather than just the mostly aimless search w/o off-game tools we have now) would be pretty neat. Perhaps gaining intel on different factions and chasing down leads could reveal things to you...people would have to learn and get good at something like that.

Mining that is more than just point and click resource gathering...perhaps requiring you to learn how to identify the best rocks to mine through visual/audio cues.

Engage my senses and my intellect, please, Frontier!
 
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Jex =TE=

Banned
J
babelfisch said:
Sorry, but it's actually your post that doesn't make sense. Sure you got these quotes right?!
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No it isn't. Everyone else here understands what I'm saying it's you that doesn't understand us. This is apparent because you keep getting everyone else's posts wrong too.
 

Zambrick

Zambrick
Blackcompany said:
Did the same. I really tried to have a conversation, but the Constant "you're wrong because I say you're wrong" did it for me.

The game observably lacks depth. The mile wide/inch deep thing is all over the web about Elite. Here. Reddit. PcGamer comments. Steam Discussions. It's the most common knock on the game.
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Indeed it is truly its only down fall. It has fantastic potential and I want to see it do better. If this game had an actual story and or content, then this game would destroy all other games of its type. In fact it would be one of the greatest games of all time.

However due to its lack of content, it is really just a very pretty bauble. Its nice to have, but its not a necessity.

I mostly play this game via Youtube now. Everything that is discovered is posted within hours by a dozen or more Youtubers.

For example the new generation ship. I really have no reason to go out there and see it. You get some voice acting and some pretty visuals but then its over.

Its like visiting a museum and not like playing a game. You can go look, but you cant touch. You can look, but you cant interact in any way.

It also does not open up any further avenues of gameplay. The ship is in that location and that is it. Nothing you can do or say will effect it. There are no more clues, and no more avenues to follow up. Its just there. Like a lump on a log. Maybe one day in the future the ship will do something. Until then its just another pretty set piece in an empty galaxy.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
J
Zambrick said:
You can do as I did. Babelfisch has no reason to post other than to oppose the last poster. Regardless as to his or her stance. Flip flopping, fighting and derailing the thread is he or she's only goal.

Just put them on ignore as I have. Its very liberating and you wont be missing out on anything. I have as of yet been able to find a post from that person that is of any merit. In this thread or otherwise.
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He hasn't been abusive yet, that's usually my ignore button time. If he wants to make stupid arguments and have them highlighted then I'd say that's more......



sadomasachism?
 

Zarkon

Z
I don't want to be the hero. I'm not looking to be the savior of the galaxy, or rescue a princess and achieve fame and fortune, or to even get my name into the Galnet daily newspaper. The depth I would like to see is in career choices. An actual path to be blazed.

An example: being a professional Bounty Hunter. Earn 10 million credits turning in vouchers to the Empire and having a friendly+ rating with them, I can obtain an overpriced BH license, with perks and benefits such as being free to destroy any wanted ship within Imperial systems. Don't have to scan first any more. If I scan the fugitive (in any system) and they have an Imperial bounty, I get a bonus payout when I cash it in. Features similar to this that make me feel like I'm actually moving up the ladder of my chosen profession.

Currently it feels like all I can be in the game is a freelancer, a subcontractor or a space thug. I still find it odd that the original Elite almost didn't get released because all the publishers that Braben and Bell showed the game to wanted them to add a time limit and a high score, yet rewards in the new Elite is almost nothing but time limits (missions, PP, CG) and high scores (faction ratings, reaching Elite status).
 
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