Griefers and Elite's Emerging Karma System

This past week has seen a substantive debate in the media and in-house over the sabotage/success of the Salome event, plus related discussions about the griefing of pilots in starter systems and community events.

Sandro Sarmmarco's (comments on a potential karma system)[https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/698b36/sandro_sammarco_lead_designer_talks_about/] to address crime and punishment in Elite is therefore interestingly timed. His thoughts on longitudinally tracking the behaviour of all pilots, scaling the consequences for anti-social behaviour, and perhaps incentivizing pro-social behaviour and self-policing are the core of what he is considering. So too is finding ways to address karma without shutting down pvp.

The wisdom of these ideas lays in focusing on behaviour that impacts others, and not the (un)stated intentions of those involved. Intentions are extremely difficult to pin down online. Since intentions and actions go hand-in-hand when trying to understand culpability, however, this also makes a behaviour based karma system difficult to implement. Especially so in a sandbox universe like Elite. Kudos to Frontier for grappling with these complexities up front.

As we debate the utility of a karma system for crime and punishment, lets remember what real-life research says about those who engage in griefing. This may give us a better sense of whether a karma system would be good for Elite.

For the purpose of this note, a griefer is (a person who harasses or deliberately provokes other players or members in order to spoil their enjoyment)[https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/griefer]. Activities pertaining to Elite include targeting new players for destruction, interfering with community events, using combat zones to score easy kills of cmdrs, and the like. Griefers claim theirs is a valid play-style, introduces 'emergent content', and 'educates' players on proper preparation and game-play.

This does not match up with what the research tells us about griefers.

Decades of research shows no causal effect between virtual and real world violence per se. The research is increasingly clear, however, that folks with anti-social traits are drawn to griefing in online, multi-player games. The traits that characterize griefers are the dark tetrad of Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathology, and sadism. Basically a subset of players engage in griefing for malicious reasons. The anonymity of online interaction also provides them safety from consequences, unless anti-griefing policies and practices are implemented.

Does this mean everyone who griefs is an everyday sadist? No. There are personality tests for the dark tetrad, and one cannot say a priori that all griefers are anti-social or ill. But it does mean that a good proportion of griefers are malevolent, and likely drawn to the current mechanics of Elite because it allows them to grief without consequence.

It is also important to distinguish pvpers from griefers. Pvpers enjoy the combat side of things, and often the role-play of activities like "piracy". The overarching narrative of a game defines the roles that players might adopt. Griefers are motivated by anti-social urges irrespective of narrative framing, and introduce an unhealthy element in-game.

As someone who enjoys pvp and has led a largish organization dedicated to it, I do not want to see the end of pvp in Elite. At the same time, the research suggests there is good reason to worry about the impact of griefers on the Elite community, particularly those new to us.

Whatever karma system that Frontier designs should keep the above elements in mind, and do what it can to discourage griefing.

Update: Obsidian Ant has a nice discussion of the Karma mechanic on youtube -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpL4t02eLy0&list=TLGGVViFGYM8nWoxNDA1MjAxNw
 
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Decades of research shows no causal effect between virtual and real world violence per se. The research is increasingly clear, however, that folks with anti-social traits are drawn to griefing in online, multi-player games. The traits that characterize griefers are the dark tetrad of Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathology, and sadism. Basically a subset of players engage in griefing for malicious reasons. The anonymity of online interaction also provides them safety from consequences, unless anti-griefing policies and practices are implemented.

I don't think being anti social has anything to do with it.

I get really anxious and stuff irl talking to anyone, but in games I always play paragon when given the option.
Hell, I've only done the Dark Brotherhood once in skyrim just to see what it was like, never again after that :p

I even reload when I see a random cow or brahmin or something killed by collateral damage, just to try and save her!

And I have no intention at all to grief anyone in elite or any online game.

You can be non social but still have a strong sense of empathy, and you can be the exact opposite aswell.
 
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The research is increasingly clear, however, that folks with anti-social traits are drawn to griefing in online, multi-player games.

What research?

Activities pertaining to Elite include targeting new players for destruction, interfering with community events, using combat zones to score easy kills of cmdrs, and the like.

1. Targeting new players for destruction is debatably not griefing
2. Interfering with CGs is not griefing, as long as no exploits are used.
3. Using CZs is perfectly legitimate.

Do you perhaps mean perhaps asymmetric PvP where a CMDR is attacking a much weaker ship? Even so that would not be griefing unless it is continually targeted against the same commander.

I am all for a new updated C&P system - it should focus on system security or other CMDRs being able to bounty hunt (via telepresence as space is big), restrict murdering CMDRs to anarchy systems and end the (IMHO) exploit of losing bounties in a suicidewinder and so on.

Being a psychopath should also be a career with unlockable engineers, special modules, paintjobs etc AS LONG AS there is a way for CMDRs to hunt them more easily.
 
Great thread! Indeed, I had not heard about the thoughs on a karma system.

However, I did just find the time to post a few concept ideas I had myself, about how to deal with PvP piracy and griefing.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/350279-How-to-make-griefing-more-fun

And indeed, my thoughts are also focusing around how we can keep (or even enhance) PvP piracy, but reduce the impact of random griefing, especially on newcomers and casual players.

Definitely an issue that's worth spending a few thoughts on.
 
This past week has seen a substantive debate in the media and in-house over the sabotage/success of the Salome event, plus related discussions about the griefing of pilots in starter systems and community events.

Sandro Sarmmarco's (comments on a potential karma system)[https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/698b36/sandro_sammarco_lead_designer_talks_about/] to address crime and punishment in Elite is therefore interestingly timed. His thoughts on longitudinally tracking the behaviour of all pilots, scaling the consequences for anti-social behaviour, and perhaps incentivizing pro-social behaviour and self-policing are the core of what he is considering. So too is finding ways to address karma without shutting down pvp.

The wisdom of these ideas lays in focusing on behaviour that impacts others, and not the (un)stated intentions of those involved. Intentions are extremely difficult to pin down online. Since intentions and actions go hand-in-hand when trying to understand culpability, however, this also makes a behaviour based karma system difficult to implement. Especially so in a sandbox universe like Elite. Kudos to Frontier for grappling with these complexities up front.

As we debate the utility of a karma system for crime and punishment, lets remember what real-life research says about those who engage in griefing. This may give us a better sense of whether a karma system would be good for Elite.

For the purpose of this note, a griefer is (a person who harasses or deliberately provokes other players or members in order to spoil their enjoyment)[https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/griefer]. Activities pertaining to Elite include targeting new players for destruction, interfering with community events, using combat zones to score easy kills of cmdrs, and the like. Griefers claim theirs is a valid play-style, introduces 'emergent content', and 'educates' players on proper preparation and game-play.

This does not match up with what the research tells us about griefers.

Decades of research shows no causal effect between virtual and real world violence per se. The research is increasingly clear, however, that folks with anti-social traits are drawn to griefing in online, multi-player games. The traits that characterize griefers are the dark tetrad of Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathology, and sadism. Basically a subset of players engage in griefing for malicious reasons. The anonymity of online interaction also provides them safety from consequences, unless anti-griefing policies and practices are implemented.

Does this mean everyone who griefs is an everyday sadist? No. There are personality tests for the dark tetrad, and one cannot say a priori that all griefers are anti-social or ill. But it does mean that a good proportion of griefers are malevolent, and likely drawn to the current mechanics of Elite because it allows them to grief without consequence.

It is also important to distinguish pvpers from griefers. Pvpers enjoy the combat side of things, and often the role-play of activities like "piracy". The overarching narrative of a game defines the roles that players might adopt. Griefers are motivated by anti-social urges irrespective of narrative framing, and introduce an unhealthy element in-game.

As someone who enjoys pvp and has led a largish organization dedicated to it, I do not want to see the end of pvp in Elite. At the same time, the research suggests there is good reason to worry about the impact of griefers on the Elite community, particularly those new to us.

Whatever karma system that Frontier designs should keep the above elements in mind, and do what it can to discourage griefing.

I've had quite enough of this drivel thank you very much. Its quite the thing to witness the efforts to conflate and elide gaming actions with real life psychology and in a way it strikes me as little different to those who try to suggest human violence is linked with video games or movies.

In the same way this biased, blinkered and loaded mentality forgets the fact that we live in a violent world; Its everywhere as Darwin stated re survival of the fittest, but now we are now subject to amateur psychology hour, the science of quacks, who seek an instrument to marginalise and ostracize with passive aggressive pap ad nauseum..

I remember watching a mate get blown up in Iraq, I've held people dying in my arms.. There is no such thing as grief in a computer game, and if you really think there is then you are lucky enough to never have experienced it for real.

If we are to continue down this path of analysing others and how they play the game I wonder if its time to turn the tables because by golly, I have a few things to say about the other side.
 

Goose4291

Banned
Decades of research shows no causal effect between virtual and real world violence per se. The research is increasingly clear, however, that folks with anti-social traits are drawn to griefing in online, multi-player games. The traits that characterize griefers are the dark tetrad of Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathology, and sadism. Basically a subset of players engage in griefing for malicious reasons. The anonymity of online interaction also provides them safety from consequences, unless anti-griefing policies and practices are implemented.

*Obligatory Frontier Psychiatrist reference*

tumblr_mrx2fuLDi31qmdmiso1_400.gif
 
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I'm all for getting rid of toxic pieces of crap and exploiters.

However most of the PvP related stuff you said doesn't strike me as griefing.

More like using suicide ships to ram into people at stations and have the stations blow up other players and the like.
 
Reading Sandro's remarks on that Reddit thread I find it interesting that the official Fdev stance on most PvP is that it's "undesirable." I'm paraphrasing, of course, but that's certainly the tone. Well, good luck with a c&p "karma" system Fdev, I hope you show more skill implementing that in a way that doesn't trigger a nuclear meltdown then you have tackling shield rebalancing:)
 

Goose4291

Banned
Reading Sandro's remarks on that Reddit thread I find it interesting that the official Fdev stance on most PvP is that it's "undesirable." I'm paraphrasing, of course, but that's certainly the tone. Well, good luck with a c&p "karma" system Fdev, I hope you show more skill implementing that in a way that doesn't trigger a nuclear meltdown then you have tackling shield rebalancing:)

I salute your (misplaced) optimism

giphy.gif
 
I've had quite enough of this drivel thank you very much. Its quite the thing to witness the efforts to conflate and elide gaming actions with real life psychology and in a way it strikes me as little different to those who try to suggest human violence is linked with video games or movies.

In the same way this biased, blinkered and loaded mentality forgets the fact that we live in a violent world; Its everywhere as Darwin stated re survival of the fittest, but now we are now subject to amateur psychology hour, the science of quacks, who seek an instrument to marginalise and ostracize with passive aggressive pap ad nauseum..

I remember watching a mate get blown up in Iraq, I've held people dying in my arms.. There is no such thing as grief in a computer game, and if you really think there is then you are lucky enough to never have experienced it for real.

If we are to continue down this path of analysing others and how they play the game I wonder if its time to turn the tables because by golly, I have a few things to say about the other side.

God damn it felt good reading this. Thank you. +1
 
The forum Dad is strong with this one. The problem with griefing is that griefing is subjective. Even if the 'victim' asks the 'attacker' to stop and they do not, the act may still not be considered griefing by any reasonable interpretation of a game's rules.

For example, my home system is Kaliki, and I support one of the factions there. Should that faction enter a civil war state, I would hunt down commanders supporting the opposing side without remorse, and certainly not stop if asked to until those commanders leave the system. This would happen regardless of the ship, combat rank or wanted state of the commander. This would be considered griefing by the OP's standards, but a zealous defence of my favoured faction by my own standards.

Elite doesn't need solutions to stop griefing.

It needs ways to *respond* to it.

Why can't I place a player bounty?

Why don't police and stations attack wanted players on sight?

Why isn't the location of a wanted player reported system wide and followed by police?

Why is there no distinction between a 400CR bounty and a 4,000,000 CR bounty?
 
I've had quite enough of this drivel thank you very much. Its quite the thing to witness the efforts to conflate and elide gaming actions with real life psychology and in a way it strikes me as little different to those who try to suggest human violence is linked with video games or movies.

In the same way this biased, blinkered and loaded mentality forgets the fact that we live in a violent world; Its everywhere as Darwin stated re survival of the fittest, but now we are now subject to amateur psychology hour, the science of quacks, who seek an instrument to marginalise and ostracize with passive aggressive pap ad nauseum..

I remember watching a mate get blown up in Iraq, I've held people dying in my arms.. There is no such thing as grief in a computer game, and if you really think there is then you are lucky enough to never have experienced it for real.

If we are to continue down this path of analysing others and how they play the game I wonder if its time to turn the tables because by golly, I have a few things to say about the other side.

You do realise you are kind of proving his point don't you.

Just saying.
 
I've had quite enough of this drivel thank you very much. Its quite the thing to witness the efforts to conflate and elide gaming actions with real life psychology and in a way it strikes me as little different to those who try to suggest human violence is linked with video games or movies.

In the same way this biased, blinkered and loaded mentality forgets the fact that we live in a violent world; Its everywhere as Darwin stated re survival of the fittest, but now we are now subject to amateur psychology hour, the science of quacks, who seek an instrument to marginalise and ostracize with passive aggressive pap ad nauseum..

I remember watching a mate get blown up in Iraq, I've held people dying in my arms.. There is no such thing as grief in a computer game, and if you really think there is then you are lucky enough to never have experienced it for real.

If we are to continue down this path of analysing others and how they play the game I wonder if its time to turn the tables because by golly, I have a few things to say about the other side.

God damn it felt good reading this. Thank you. +1

I just read that and I feel the same was as you expressed. The part where Cosmos related his experience with real grief actually caught me up short. Honestly I dont expect that kind of substance on this forum.
 
I remember watching a mate get blown up in Iraq, I've held people dying in my arms.. There is no such thing as grief in a computer game, and if you really think there is then you are lucky enough to never have experienced it for real.

Then I suggest you have more respect for their memory than to use them to try and win a debate about a video game on an internet forum.
 
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I've had quite enough of this drivel thank you very much. Its quite the thing to witness the efforts to conflate and elide gaming actions with real life psychology and in a way it strikes me as little different to those who try to suggest human violence is linked with video games or movies.

In the same way this biased, blinkered and loaded mentality forgets the fact that we live in a violent world; Its everywhere as Darwin stated re survival of the fittest, but now we are now subject to amateur psychology hour, the science of quacks, who seek an instrument to marginalise and ostracize with passive aggressive pap ad nauseum..

I remember watching a mate get blown up in Iraq, I've held people dying in my arms.. There is no such thing as grief in a computer game, and if you really think there is then you are lucky enough to never have experienced it for real.

If we are to continue down this path of analysing others and how they play the game I wonder if its time to turn the tables because by golly, I have a few things to say about the other side.

I'm sorry about your mate, and respect for your service. I've been with dying folks too, although not in your circumstances.

A gentle prod to say I think you are overinterpreting me. Note that I'm not trying to compare extreme events in real life to online trolling and griefing. Rather I'm discussing the motivations for those that grief in Elite. That said, I think you underestimate the psychological and cultural impact that griefing can have. Cyberbullying, trolling, and griefing all contribute to unhealthy communities.
 
Then I suggest you have more respect for their memory than to use them to try and win a debate about a video game on an internet forum.

Low blow, Stealthie. Actually, I'd say it was kind of chicken-poop. Which is funny given the fact that you're a turtle.
 
I'm all for getting rid of toxic pieces of crap and exploiters.

However most of the PvP related stuff you said doesn't strike me as griefing.

More like using suicide ships to ram into people at stations and have the stations blow up other players and the like.

Suicide ramming works as a good example!
 
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