Griefers and Elite's Emerging Karma System

This part struck me as interesting.

In Open, you can run into other Commanders that want to destroy your ship. We are saying that if they repeatedly pick unfair fights, we will take action against them. Why would we not take action against someone who consistently logs to avoid legitimate destruction?

The implication here is that the attacker and the logger have mutually exclusive behaviours, but punishing both behaviours will be a double whammy for certain CMDRs.
 
I have a bit of anti-social or social anxiety tendencies myself. I despise killing people in games for no reason in a non-competitive environment. I have never felt good about 'ganking' anyone in any game unless there was a tangible in game objective to compel me to do so. I think Nalessa explained it pretty well for me. Sometimes it does feel good to play a bad guy in a game, but never for salt and never senseless. A gentleman outlaw, if you will, whenever I have the urge.
 
My own preferred solution to the problem of griefers is H2SO4.... heh not really

Actually
1. pestering the new guys in sidies... yeah welll that like killing puppies for fun so the solution is "Starter systems become permit locked after say 10 hrs play" and your sidey rebuy is at your last station.

2. crime and punishment works in conjunction with the system security status, the higher the security level , the quicker and more heavily armed the police response and they're more likely to go after the high bounty players, in an anarcy, anything goes with no record of it happening, shoot someone down in a high sec area and your bounty will be through the roof.

3 Player placed bounties No no no and thrice NO! because that will be used and abused to grief innocent players

4 CZs pick a side... shoot at the enemy. if a player in a viper is dumb enough to take pot shots at a python battlewagon, dont cry when said python blows you straight to the rebuy screen.

In all PvP just needs a tweak here and there to make it better.

Bill

And please note .... Open is not the cesspit everyone seems to think it is... I'm there all the time and I've been griefed 3 times in 2 yrs...
 
I just refuse to accept that griefing, in the broad definition being used here, occurs in this game. If you are someone who is affected negatively by ship destruction at the hands of another human then there are wonderful ways to not have to deal with that.

Playing in Open is an Open invitation to either co-operation or hostilities. It is part of the game, whether you are in a sidey or an Imperial Cutter.

Well, yes, but there should be incentives to act in a certain way.

If you're talking about a combat FPS then obviously it's a fairly straightforward premise; you shoot at the stuff shooting at you.

That isn't the ED universe though.
Sure, it's part of the ED universe but not the entire thing.
That being the case, somebody at FDev needs to sit down and decide just how violent the ED universe is intended to be and then come up with a system that will encourage people to adopt appropriate behavour OR choose to live outside mainstream society and create a viable counterculture which supports that too.

Fundamentally, we currently have a universe where a player can be attacked and killed immediately for a single stray shot in a RES but where people can willfully destroy ship after ship right outside a station in a "high security" system without significant retaliation.
That can't be right, can it?
 
http://i.imgur.com/2ouDWXa.gifI genuinely think some people who post here complaining about 'griefing' would be reaching for the razor blades if they experienced ten minutes of Ultima Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea or THAT OTHER SPACE GAME.

The atmosphere in those sorts of games did not make me 'reach for a razor blade', but it did inevitably make me leave them. For me to enjoy PvP, it needs to be competitive (I probably would have enjoyed Red vs Blue in Eve, if I was compelled) and based around teams and organization. FPS', MOBAs, PvP Battlegrounds in MMOs, PvP Zones (like in Warhammer Online, I absolutely loved that game), those sorts of things. For me, reasons and intent matter. Not that I scream about griefing in this game, which is who your post was aimed at, but I do feel that sometimes offering different perspectives helps.
 
First off it is false to say griefing is a subjective evaluation. Lots of good research on that subject, ethical and psychological. The claim of subjectivity is most often used as an excuse to brush aside a concern and not respond substantively to it. People as so used to hearing it and repeating it, however, that they don't often realize this.

Second, I think you are one the money that in a virtual world that allows pvp, we should have robust mechanisms for pilots to police themselves. Lots of fun, and keeps griefers at bay.

I'm in favour of brushing it aside because I don't think griefing can be fixed by labelling it. However giving players useful tools to respond to actions that may constitute griefing would work much better. If someone 'griefs' me, I can place a bounty on their head, or, I can ignore it if I don't care. I hope something good comes from the karma system, but I honestly think it's yet another convoluted mechanic to be layered on top of Elite's existing systems which are similarly convoluted.
 
For me, your point faltered when you brought up players killing player in CZs as a form of griefing. If there is any arena in the Elite Dangerous universe where player killing couldn't be more acceptable, it's within a CZ. Hell, I have videos of wing mates destroying players who stumbled into CZs with us and decided to shoot us. How could that be considered griefing in the slightest? Would you also consider CGs community events (assuming you're speaking more of events like what recently happened with Salome)? Hunting players supporting the rival faction during a CG is far from griefing as well, or imparting an RP blockade upon one or the myriad other reasons why PKs show up at large events.

I've encountered true griefing in video games, at least in comparison the tame events that happen here in Elite. Myself and many of the other players of this game have played the true griefers paradise known as EVE. I've been subject to repeated, targeted, months long harassment in that game just for my association within a specific player or corporation. Targeted by players who had an exponential advantage over me because of the way the progression system in that game is designed. Blown apart until I was broke and then hounded 24/7 by groups of coordinating players so that I couldn't leave the station to make more money via mining or seeking out NPC pirates to gather the bounties on. I've been run out of that game enough to the point where I stopped playing because there was no point in paying the monthly sub for a game I couldn't play and that was their goal the entire time.

True griefing doesn't really happen here in Elite. This community just likes to throw that word around like it's going to spur FDev into action.

You also continue to mention "research" but have failed to provide links to said research. Providing them would do wonders for supporting your argument.

Edit: I see above that, as I was writing this, you mentioned being an EVE player as well. How could you even begin to compare what happens here with actual targeted griefing?



This honestly went over my head. Nice of you to poke fun at that though, which is what I'm assuming you're doing. Show your true colors to everyone else while you're at it.

Two things.

First, I think you are over-interpreting me about CZs. I think you make good points here. I've left pilots who have attacked me dead in the water in CZs myself. Its not about whether pvp occurs in them. Its whether griefers use them as an easy way to maliciously kill already engaged pilots.

Second, the research is easily found. Start at wikipedia, look up griefer or griefing, and follow your nose with respect to the citations. For older citations, start on google and look up video game violence. Lots of primary research and journalistic summaries to examine. Here are several journalistic overviews. Follow the links to the actual articles.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/08/violent-video-games.aspx

http://www.salon.com/2014/10/03/why_do_internet_trolls_troll_they_might_be_sadists/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...-life/201412/the-four-dark-personality-traits

http://www.livescience.com/48128-internet-trolls-sadistic-personalities.html


Having said that, if you want more in-depth discussion, see the following books:

Bainbridge, William. 2010. Warcraft Civilization: Social Science in a Virtual World. Cambridge: MIT Press.

Guest, Tim. 2007. Second Lives: A Journey Through Virtual Worlds. New York: Random House.

Sicart, Miguel. 2009. The Ethics of Computer Games. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.
 
I think it's important to make the distinction between anti-social and introverted behavior as well. For example, I'm an extremely introverted person, and as such, tend to get drained from social activities rather than energized by it. That doesn't in any way mean I don't enjoy socializing with those people, in real life or in game. It just means that I need some alone time to recharge my batteries after the fact, as it were.

Now, I mention this because Elite is exactly the kind of game where I like to do that recharging. I can set it to Solo Play and never have to worry about the direct influence from other players. I can do my trading runs or go to combat zones and set the pace in which I wish to play. Granted, I still have to deal with the indirect affects of the playerbase, such as the market supply or faction influences. But I can still usually find a quiet corner of the galaxy to chill in and not be bothered until I'm ready to deal with Open Play.

To be frank, if Elite: Dangerous has a real offline mode, that's where I'd be spending most of my play time. And I think FDEV knows that or they wouldn't have made some of the choices they did during the games' Alpha Phase. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing online. If a player pirate wants to interdict me, I play along and get swept up in the chase just as much as they do. I've been known to swoop into asteroid rings, dump a heat sink, and go into silent running all for the immersion of the cat and mouse game I'm playing with this other player. I've even managed to lose them more than once. I'm totally fine with players engaging in the fantasy of the game's universe.

What I'm not okay with is players griefing for the sake of bullying or screwing over other people.
 
While I understand where you're coming from, real life psychology CANNOT be ignored when analysing in-game interactions, no matter how much some may think one can. The fact is that ALL multiplayer games involve player-to-player interactions - and while that interaction may be through a collection of pixels representing some form of avatar in an online game, and thus disconnected from our real world, there remains a real human being at both ends of that interaction. A human being that is nonetheless emotionally impacted by the outcomes of that interaction. That emotion can come in many forms. What we must always remember is that because the online environment depersonalises the experience (you typically can't see, or always hear, the person at the other end), you don't have the usual cues to trigger your own empathy for the other person that may temper your behaviour towards that person - to you it's just another set of pixels on a screen. But as a result you also have no idea what that other person's state may be - you cannot know whether your actions may indeed have real world implications for that person. And as the regular issues surrounding online bullying, for example, demonstrate, online interactions can indeed have very serious ramifications, very much in the real world and involving real life psychological considerations. That said, I don't think your average griefer cares about that, but it doesn't diminish that truth.

I would also add that there is indeed grief in video games - although not to the same degree as in real life nor with the same ramifications, I would agree. I can tell you the emotions after the 'death' of Salome were very much akin to grief for some, even given there is a real difference between the death of a character and a real person. The emotion was very, very similar, I can assure you.

This is beautifully stated. Thank you.
 
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Sadism is a very complicated subject... far more complicated than people quite realize. This is probably the wrong forum to go into full detail but I actually am a sadist outside of the game but am normally rather secretive about it (bless the t'interwebs for extra braves). My partner is fully aware of course ;-) Once you've embraced the fact that you have a sadistic side to your personality you start to realize that it's not actually that rare. Lots of people have little bits of sadism floating about in them, it's a very common human trait.

Some things to note about sadism which most people don't appreciate:

1. sadist != sociopath, the two are separate traits which occur together in some dangerous individuals but are basically independent from one another. Sociopaths are actually very rare, but many people have little sadistic traits.
2. sadists can be ethical people..
3. Very few people are either entirely benevolent or entirely sadistic... most people that have a sadistic streak are also capable of being kind or cooperative too.

I spend the vast majority of my time in game being helpful and cooperative.. sometimes I'm even almost boundlessly kind. I certainly enjoy PVP but just occasionally in the game I am willfully cruel and enjoy it. Such is the complexity of human nature.. In my real life of course I'm never cruel without people's consent (we won't discuss the exact context) but that is where games and reality can diverge due to the diminishing consequences of a virtual world :)

I've have observed that others on the forum dislike the linking of real life psychology with their computer game selves.. I however have long been comfortable with exactly who I am in real life.. I don't have a problem admitting that the two me's are linked ;-)
 
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Given existing implementations of reputation in ED, I don't have much faith that a Karma system will work properly.
More likely it'll be gamed by the very people it's meant to police.

I'm still in favour of Pilots' Federation bounties for killing clean players in jurisdictions with security.
Ramp up security response in line with the system security rating and start restricting station access.

The key to these bounties is that they have a fixed term and do not expire on the perp's death.
To avoid friends from farming them, you can't collect if you've ever been on the friend list or been winged and you can only collect a bounty on any particular player once a week.
 
I think it's important to make the distinction between anti-social and introverted behavior as well. For example, I'm an extremely introverted person, and as such, tend to get drained from social activities rather than energized by it. That doesn't in any way mean I don't enjoy socializing with those people, in real life or in game. It just means that I need some alone time to recharge my batteries after the fact, as it were.

Now, I mention this because Elite is exactly the kind of game where I like to do that recharging. I can set it to Solo Play and never have to worry about the direct influence from other players. I can do my trading runs or go to combat zones and set the pace in which I wish to play. Granted, I still have to deal with the indirect affects of the playerbase, such as the market supply or faction influences. But I can still usually find a quiet corner of the galaxy to chill in and not be bothered until I'm ready to deal with Open Play.

To be frank, if Elite: Dangerous has a real offline mode, that's where I'd be spending most of my play time. And I think FDEV knows that or they wouldn't have made some of the choices they did during the games' Alpha Phase. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing online. If a player pirate wants to interdict me, I play along and get swept up in the chase just as much as they do. I've been known to swoop into asteroid rings, dump a heat sink, and go into silent running all for the immersion of the cat and mouse game I'm playing with this other player. I've even managed to lose them more than once. I'm totally fine with players engaging in the fantasy of the game's universe.

What I'm not okay with is players griefing for the sake of bullying or screwing over other people.

A very important distinction, and an argument that skillfully illustrates the distinction between griefing and role-playing.
 
not even sure why i feel the need to repost this ancient sandro quote here...
Griefing:

So, we've said we don't mind bad guys. In fact, we go further; we have bad guy gameplay options (piracy, smuggling etc.) By default, this includes psychopathic behaviour - randomly attacking other player "because you can".

We're currently looking at two different angles of defence: an in-game law system and private groups.

The in-game law system should be pretty robust. It allows plausible but strong responses from NPC factions to criminal activities (using authority ships, structures and factional bounties), as well as player-driven bounties (via the Pilot's Federation) and player bounty hunting mechanisms (e.g. broadcasting "sightings" of know villains to help player bounty hunters track them).

All of this should mean that that if you're being naughty you are generating additional challenges for yourself which will undoubtedly make the game harder in some ways (this applies equally whether you are attacking players or NPCs).

It won't guarantee safety, even though it guarantees additional challenges to the bad guys. Which I think is about right; we don't want to make being the bad guy impossible.

The second factor is our grouping mechanisms.

The way it's currently standing, players will be able to enter and leave private groups of some sort reasonably easily, so they will be able to control the level of perceived griefing they want to suffer.

I know this is a very contentious issue, which I have been wrestling with since I first came on to the project. The way I see it at the moment is pretty straightforward:

  • We have players that want a range of different experiences
  • All of those experiences are valid
  • Some of those experiences are mutually exclusive
So my answer is to say that we will support all of them but not to the point where one player is happy at the expense of another. And a clean way to do this is by using a grouping system.

The worst case scenario here is that a player who wants to avoid an encounter will vanish into a private group. In this case, the player will be forced to escape conventionally first (via hyperspace, docking or something similar).

In this instance, the aggressor still gets some benefit - they "defeated" their prey, and we can hopefully build on this in terms of rewarding them in various ways: via reputation, which can lead to missions and events, via player bragging rights (perhaps only players that remain in the "all group" can feature in various global news feed articles) and potentially via limited physical rewards.

If players are going to live in private groups, well, that suggests that if we had a single environment they would be playing offline or not at all, so they aren't part of the equation.

Players that dip into the "all group" after farming "private groups"; there are a few things to say about this.

  • They are unlikely to have as good player-vs-player skills as those who live in the "all" group day in day out.
  • NPCs can and will offer appropriate risks (in fact, it would not be a lie to suggest that we *could* make NPC ships significantly nastier than any human ships in the majority of situations. Not that we will, mind. But we could), so to get a tooled up advantage such players will have been facing a appropriate threat level (basically private groups should not be considered "easy mode").
  • Everyone has access to their own private group(s)

It's not perfect, but it's my best shot at the moment.

Anyway, taking these two strands into account, again, the result will again be hopefully a "very light touch".

anyway, it's friday. time for a beer, or three.
 
What research?



1. Targeting new players for destruction is debatably not griefing
2. Interfering with CGs is not griefing, as long as no exploits are used.
3. Using CZs is perfectly legitimate.

Do you perhaps mean perhaps asymmetric PvP where a CMDR is attacking a much weaker ship? Even so that would not be griefing unless it is continually targeted against the same commander.

I am all for a new updated C&P system - it should focus on system security or other CMDRs being able to bounty hunt (via telepresence as space is big), restrict murdering CMDRs to anarchy systems and end the (IMHO) exploit of losing bounties in a suicidewinder and so on.

Being a psychopath should also be a career with unlockable engineers, special modules, paintjobs etc AS LONG AS there is a way for CMDRs to hunt them more easily.

Correspondingly, it should be just as easy to find a player hauling valuable cargo for that career. The NPCs sure as heck seem to know from across the galaxy.
 
Reading Sandro's remarks on that Reddit thread I find it interesting that the official Fdev stance on most PvP is that it's "undesirable." I'm paraphrasing, of course, but that's certainly the tone. Well, good luck with a c&p "karma" system Fdev, I hope you show more skill implementing that in a way that doesn't trigger a nuclear meltdown then you have tackling shield rebalancing:)

Yea, for a game pitched as 'play your own way' and 'hunt other commanders!' that was disappointing. Especially considering that people who really hate PvP can hide in solo/PGs and not be bothered with it - ever.
 
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